For Your AL MVP Consideration I Give You – Michael Young

by ThomasWayne

I must admit I hate writing these “who should be MVP” type articles. The problem with them is -in general- that anyone who is even remotely valuable to their team can be considered truly most valuable but rarely do we get past the top three or four main candidates. It’s like most Presidential elections – we are a country of over 350,000,000 souls – does anyone honestly believe that we can narrow down a field of ten or twelve to two men (and or women) and expect to find the right person? The Nation may hang in the balance and we have TWO choices for a world leader. Not exactly how the real world works. If Joe the car repair guy needs to higher a new mechanic and he only has two choices (both decidedly different in opinion on how to fix an engine) and neither choice has what Joe is looking for he certainly doesn’t settle for one over the other. He keeps searching until he finds the right guy to help him fix cars. To bad our Presidential politics don’t fall into line with Joe and the real world. But I digress…

Every year we look at a handful of guys (usually the one’s ESPN and such tell us to look at) and we choose an MVP from that small assorted batch. On more than one occasion (Miguel Tejada and Dustin Pedroia spring to mind) the media so heavily pushes for a particular candidate that the voters fall into line and select them in an almost predetermined fashion. It’s called a fall-in-line-vote. That’s not to say that inevitable winner of the award doesn’t deserve to win – it just means the sheep that vote follow the heard and get tunnel vision and more often than not a truly viable and deserving candidate gets overlooked from the start because he was not one of the initial “chosen”.

Let’s look at this years crop of AL ‘chosen’ – Justin Verlander, Jose Bautista, Curtis Granderson, Jacoby Ellsbury and Adrian Gonzalez.

A solid group of great players all having great years.

As a matter of fact – I called the Granderson MVP before the season started – err…before the 2010 season that is. Here was my pick for AL MVP as it was written for Dugout Central prior to the 2010 season.

  • AL MVP: CURTIS GRANDERSON- New York Yankees–Look out boys, it’s my boldest prediction of all. I loved the addition of Granderson the minute the trade was announced. His game is built perfectly for the New Yankee Stadium and the lineup around him. He’ll be looked upon as the spark for the best offense in the game. He could easily finish the year with 35+ homers, 90+ RBI, 20+ steals, and a whopping 130+ runs scored.  Most importantly, the press likes him and he’s an acknowledged good guy. The kind of guy you can get behind win casting your vote. If he can keep his average up (around .280 or higher), and have a career year in OBP, he could easily win the award over the glamour choices of ARod, Longoria, Teixeira, Jeter, Youkilis and any number of big names you can add to the list.

Like I said – that was from March of 2010. I’m a regular Nostradamus.

Except Granderson won’t win the 2011 award. It’s already been determined by ESPN, Sports Illustrated and others. Your MVP will be Justin Verlander.  Mark it down. Or mark it zero if you are Big Lebowski fan. Either way – you can mark it, and count on it.

The ESPN and SI influence over this years choice is as I previously mentioned – a fall-in-line-vote. Verlander is having a great year, but I for one, and many of you, don’t believe a pitcher should win an MVP award over any substantial everyday player.

So, the question you may ask me is “who should be MVP if not Verlander?’ Excellent question – I’m glad you asked.

This is where I’m going away from the other glamour picks (Granderson, Bautista and Ellsbury) and my own pre-season choice (Adrian Gonzalez) to throw the name of Michael Young into the mix.

The Rangers are a day or two away from clinching a playoff spot/divisional title. They are a very good ball club and the defending AL Champions. So who is there MVP?

Before you just blurt out Josh Hamilton keep in mind that he has missed over 40 games this year do to various ailments and broken bones. What about Adrian Beltre? Again – he to has missed roughly 40 games. Nelson Cruz? Surely Nelson played in – oh wait – damn. He’s missed around 40 to 45 games as well. Well how the hell have the Rangers been so damn good if their studs have missed nearly a season of combined games do to injury.

Say it with me – MICHAEL (expletive deleted) YOUNG.

Young hasn’t missed 40 games -  as a matter of fact – if he plays in the final 6 or 7 games this year he will have played in 160. He leads the Rangers in hits (203), batting average (.334 – and is just a few points shy of leading the AL), on-base percentage (.377), and RBI (104). Oh, and thoser 100+ ribbies have come on only 11 homers. Which means he’s getting his hits with men on base and not just racking up a huge hit total that isn’t producing runs for his team.

And he’s done all of this inspite of multiple All Star caliber teammates not being there to help him all year.

So I see ESPN’s Justin Verlander push for MVP and raise them with one of my own – Michael Young.  Jump on the bandwagon now – we have plenty of room.

As per usual I demand you throw your opinion (good or bad, right or wrong) at my MVP choice via the talk back section. Join in….the Michael Young MVP push (or derailment) begins now!!!

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390 Responses to “For Your AL MVP Consideration I Give You – Michael Young”

  1. Bob Says:

    Remember, thereare a couple of jackass sportswriters who have gone on record as saying they will not votefor a pitcher for M.V.P. That’s howPedro got fucked some 12 years ago.
    I am far from convinced that Verlander will win it.

  2. Chuck Says:

    I like the way you think Thomas.

    Not that Young isn’t worthy because he is, but I just don’t see it.

  3. Jim Says:

    Young has the, too many games at DH problem. I don’t see him winning it, but he’s not a bad choice.

  4. Raul Says:

    I have to give you credit for that choice.
    Unfortunately, Michael Young is 50th in the WAR statistic on baseball-reference.

    You know, the holy grail of statistics that makes John and Shaun faint with joy. I mean, for goodness sakes, it ranks Brett Lawrie, Coco Crisp, Maicer Izturis and Brendan Ryan ahead of Michael Young in WAR.

    How could you be so stupid??!!!!

  5. JohnBowen Says:

    “You know, the holy grail of statistics that makes John and Shaun faint with joy.”

    As opposed to batting average…which is your holy grail…which is totally iron clad, and tells us how Juan Pierre is a better player than Robin Yount was.

    And is literally the only case for Young being MVP.

    “Unfortunately, Michael Young is 50th in the WAR statistic on baseball-reference.”

    Happens when you’re mainly a DH with 11 HR.

    His only job is to hit and fill in when someone in the infield needs a break.

    He has an .850 OPS…as a DH…playing in the most hitter-friendly park around.

    By comparison, Alex Avila has a .907 OPS, while playing CATCHER, meaning he has to squat 2 hours a day as opposed to Young who gets to take batting practice in between innings.

    Nobody is considering Alex Avila a legitimate candidate for MVP.

    Nor should Young be in the mix.

    Sorry TW.

  6. Raul Says:

    I just want you to defend Michael Young being less valuable than all those guys.

    That’s all

    :-)

  7. Raul Says:

    …especially Brett Lawrie, who’s been in the bigs for 6 minutes.

  8. JohnBowen Says:

    Let me ask you this:

    If not for batting average, would you think Michael Young was this awesome?

    Why is WAR any worse? Because it was invented later? Because it looks at a ton of factors and doesn’t equate a HR to a bloop single?

    If the world were run by you guys, we might still be looking for the wheel.

    “People have been walking for 100,000 years and it’s worked just fine for us!”

  9. Raul Says:

    So you aren’t going to answer my question.

    I’m asking you to defend Brett Lawrie being more valuable than Michael Young this season.

    Keep in mind Lawrie has less than 200 PAs.
    And WAR says he’s more valuable.

  10. JohnBowen Says:

    Right, cuz he actually plays a position, and is playing it incredibly well (small sample size, but his range factor of 3.74 at 3B is *historically* high. By comparison, Brooks Robinson’s career best was 3.515).

    Put it like this…project Lawrie’s season over a full year, and you get .293/.373/.580 with 153 OPS+ with 34 HR, 30 doubles, 15 triples, 328 total bases, and incredible defense. Unlike that he’d keep it up…but that’s what it would be.

    In 1974, Mike Schmidt hit .282/.395/.546 for a 158 OPS+, 36 HR, 28 2B, 7 3B, and 310 total bases.

    Pretty close right? Big time year, I think we would agree, from one of the greatest 3B of all-time?

    That was a 10.5 WAR season…which would be like 2.6 in as many games as Lawrie has played.

    Seems about right.

    Young usually DH’s, doesn’t play great defense at 1st or 3rd when he is in, has little power, little patience. He’s a very solid singles hitter with a little gap power…that’s about it.

    Defense, power, patience…these things count in baseball.

  11. Raul Says:

    So your defense is to extrapolate what a guy did for a few weeks, hence he’s more valuable than Michael Young?

    LOL
    At least you tried. Kudos for that much.

  12. JohnBowen Says:

    Your defense is that he has a high batting average.

    Big deal.

  13. Raul Says:

    Scroll up, my friend.

    I said nothing about batting average. You’re notorious for putting shit in people’s mouths.

  14. JohnBowen Says:

    Well, there’s no other justification for why Michael Young is that awesome.

  15. Thomas Wayne Says:

    John,

    Justification for why Michael Young is awesome???

    Anyone who drives in a 100 + runs on fewer than 15 homers is having a great year regardless of batting average. That’s awesome.

    Very few men in the history of the game drive in over 100 runners unless they have great power. Think about it. Most power guys who have 100 RBI have driven themselves in 35, 40, 45 times or more via the long ball. At the end of this year Young will have roughly ten percent of his RBI from homers.

    What does that mean (i.e., what does that tell us that WAR and other bullshit stats don’t?)? It means Young is getting big hits when it counts – when his teammates are in scoring position. He’s driving them and in a big way. And when you consider that Hamilton, Cruz, Beltre and whomever else have all missed huge game totals Young is the MAIN reason (offensively) why the Rangers are on the verge of clinching the AL West.

    Michael Young (regardless of what WAR or whatever else some mass accumulative stat says) is more than just a high batting average. He’s the one constant on a team of non-constant studs.

    Viva La Michael Young. He won’t win MVP but he sure as hell deserves it.
    TW

  16. Thomas Wayne Says:

    Cobb drove in a 100 or more a few times with very few HR’s. Of course…cows were feeding in centerfield and the fences were 785 feet from home plate when he did it but why should that matter.

    Molitor had a year or two with RBI totals North of 100 on 12 or 13 homers. Ozzie Smith drove in 75 in 1987 on ZERO homers….totally amazing.

    I’m looking for a few more, but all in all, you don’t drive in 100+ without at least 20 to 25 jacks.

    TW

  17. Thomas Wayne Says:

    Molitor’s 1996 season is sickening…he batted .341 with an .858 OPS – 225 hits, 41 doubles, 99 runs scored, 18 stolen bases, and 113 batted in.

    He had 9 homers on the year. He was 39 years old.

    He won a Silver Slugger and finished 13th in MVP voting in a year where 18 players hit 39 or more homers on the year.

    113 RBI on 9 homers or 130 RBI on 50 homers? You tell me who’s really producing big?

    My guess is you take away Molitor’s homer’s away and he still has a great chance at still having driven in over 100 without a homer. The guy with 50 clearly can’t make that claim. You take away his homers and he may have driven in 60 or 65 without them.

    Michael Young, like Molitor, is having a great year on minimilist power. How anyone can’t not see the greatness in that is beyond me.

    TW

  18. John Says:

    “Anyone who drives in a 100 + runs on fewer than 15 homers is having a great year regardless of batting average. That’s awesome.”

    Not really. He plays on a big-time offensive club.

    ” It means Young is getting big hits when it counts – when his teammates are in scoring position.”

    As opposed to all those selfish homers that Bautista hits when nobody’s on?

    “And when you consider that Hamilton, Cruz, Beltre and whomever else have all missed huge game totals Young is the MAIN reason (offensively) why the Rangers are on the verge of clinching the AL West.”

    The following position players are more responsible for the Rangers’ success than Young:

    Ian Kinsler
    Josh Hamilton
    Adrian Beltre
    Mike Napoli
    Elvis Andrus

    That’s not to mention CJ Wilson, Alexi Ogando, Matt Harrison and Derek Holland from the pitcher’s side.

  19. John Says:

    “113 RBI on 9 homers or 130 RBI on 50 homers? You tell me who’s really producing big?”

    Unless guy number 2 is Dave Kingman, it’s the second one.

    “My guess is you take away Molitor’s homer’s away and he still has a great chance at still having driven in over 100 without a homer. The guy with 50 clearly can’t make that claim. You take away his homers and he may have driven in 60 or 65 without them.”

    But…you can’t do that.

    You can’t just take away a power hitter’s HR.

    That would be like taking away Michael Young’s singles.

    Does anyone ever say “man, Barry Bonds looks awesome, but if you took away his 762 HR, he’d only be hitting .161 with about 700 RBI.”

  20. John Says:

    Actually, the biggest reason for the Rangers’ success this year is Mike Napoli.

    Because if the Angels never make that trade, they never get a chance to acquire him from Toronto.

    If the Angels never make that trade, they and the Rangers would be flipped in the standings.

    No, Napoli isn’t an MVP candidate…I wouldn’t even put him top-10 (not enough PA’s to even qualify for the batting title).

    But hot-damn.

    What a screw-up by Anaheim.

  21. Chuck Says:

    Joe Sheehan:

    “What good is a .300 batting average if you only walk 30 times a year.”

    Dumbest comment ever.

    What a toad.

    John’s going to friend him on Twitter now.

  22. Cameron Says:

    If Napoli isn’t there, they have to rely on a platoon of Yourvit Torrealba and Taylor Teagarden for offense behind the plate.

  23. Danny O Says:

    Lol @ Chuck.

  24. John Says:

    @21, he’s right.

    And, as usual, you’re wrong.

  25. Chuck Says:

    “And, as usual, you’re wrong.”

    Nope.

  26. Raul Says:

    “What good is a .300 average if you only walk 30 times a year?”

    Ty Cobb 1908:

    .324/.367/.475
    36 doubles
    20 triples
    108 rbi
    39 stolen bases

    What a f*cking asshole.

  27. Raul Says:

    Cobb walked 34 times that season.

  28. John Says:

    1) Cobb hit .324 not .300.
    2) If he had hit .300 but had 100 more walks, it would’ve been a more productive season.

  29. John Says:

    Two players have 700 PA’s.

    The first one hits .300 with 30 walks.
    The second one hits .278 with 100 walks.

    Player one has 35 more hits, and made SEVENTY more outs.

    You have to be a real asshole to think that those 35 extra hits helped the team more than those 70 extra outs hurt the team.

    But in Chuck’s world, walks hurt, outs help, and on-base percentage is irrelevant.

    That’s fine, but the facts are against you.

  30. John Says:

    The other hilarious thing about batting average is that if you hit .300, you’re supposedly way more awesome than someone who hits .294.

    Even though that amounts to an extra hit every two months, which is basically nothing.

  31. John Says:

    Two second basemen:

    One has a career .301 batting average and .346 OBP.
    The other has a career .271 and .392 OBP.

    Slugging percentages are about 20 points apart, so nothing big.

    Be honest, which one do you pick?

  32. Cameron Says:

    “Player one has 35 more hits, and made SEVENTY more outs.

    You have to be a real asshole to think that those 35 extra hits helped the team more than those 70 extra outs hurt the team.

    But in Chuck’s world, walks hurt, outs help, and on-base percentage is irrelevant.

    That’s fine, but the facts are against you.”

    How many runners did the 35 hits move over?

    How many runners did the 70 walks move over?

    Granted, a walk is (on average), about 80% as effective as a single, those 35 hits may not all be singles.

    I like a guy with plate discipline, I don’t like a guy who’s afraid to take a swing. Lookin’ at you, Abreu.

  33. Chuck Says:

    You know John, if you used more relevant numbers when making a point someone might actually listen to you.

    “The first one hits .300 with 30 walks.
    The second one hits .278 with 100 walks.

    That’s just fucking dumb.

  34. John Says:

    A team of Bobby Abreu’s would out-score a team of Ralph Garr’s by over two runs a game.

    Chuck would take Garr every time.

  35. John Says:

    Ok, Chuck, then respond to post 31.

    Those are real-life numbers.

    Two choices.

    Pick one.

  36. Cameron Says:

    Watching you two argue baseball is like having to watch Reggie Strickland and Peter Buckley fight. It doesn’t matter who wins, it’s just pathetic to watch.

  37. Cameron Says:

    Oh John, wanna know something? Apparently SABR went through old box scores and found out that Bill Bergen’s hitless AB streak was actually 45 ABs. Now tell me, who else had 45 hitless ABs?

    …Still a better option than Yuni.

  38. John Says:

    My old basketball coach…sigh.

    Yuni B…there’s a ballplayer. Why walk, when you can hit 300 pop-ups?

  39. John Says:

    Apparently, Cashman drove up Crawford’s price by faking interest in him:

    “http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7008129/new-york-yankees-faked-carl-crawford-interest-cost-boston-red-sox”

  40. Cameron Says:

    Because a walk implies that he knows that you’re not supposed to swing at balls thrown into the third row of seats behind home plate and we know he’s not that smart.

  41. John Says:

    I mean seriously.

    I’ve never seen anyone pop-up so frequently. It’s like twice a game.

  42. Cameron Says:

    Really? He’s actually putting wood on the ball? Lucky bastard, most of the time I just saw him take hacks that’d make Mark Reynolds shake his head.

  43. Chuck Says:

    “But…you can’t do that”

    Dude, you do it all the time.

  44. Chuck Says:

    ““113 RBI on 9 homers or 130 RBI on 50 homers? You tell me who’s really producing big?”

    Unless guy number 2 is Dave Kingman, it’s the second one.”

    Um, no it’s not.

    Holy shit.

  45. Chuck Says:

    #39

    They did the same thing with Dice-K.

    So much for that Yale education.

  46. Cameron Says:

    You know what I see in those totals?

    Guy #1 has guys aroudn him who are on base all the time, and guy #2 has about average protection, maybe below average. Put Guy #2 in Guy #1’s lineup and you make Hack Wilson look like a bitch.

  47. Raul Says:

    Hahahahahahaha @ that Crawford story.

  48. Cameron Says:

    Matt Kemp had a hot day at the plate last night. He’s now 4 points and a homer away from the triple crown, 4 homers away from going 40-40.

    And from a guy who played shit enough to be considered trade bait this offseason.

  49. John Says:

    Chuck would rather have Tom Herr than Barry Bonds.

    I just want that to set in, because he actually considers himself an expert.

  50. Cameron Says:

    Wow, there’s enough strawman arguments in this to be a Fox News show.

  51. Raul Says:

    John’s comparisons are fantastic.

    Who would you rather have.
    Player A = insert Mario Mendoza’s stats.
    or
    Player B = insert Robin Yount’s stats.

  52. Cameron Says:

    I’m just curious, am I the only one here who really doesn’t see walks as a hitter’s stat? Don’t get me wrong, getting a walk shows you know what not to swing at, but to me walks are the sign of a pitcher fucking up, not the hitter being good.

  53. John Says:

    So…Barry Bonds, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, and Rickey Henderson must’ve just had an incredible ability to hit against shit pitchers?

    Come on now.

    “Player A = insert Mario Mendoza’s stats.
    or
    Player B = insert Robin Yount’s stats.”

    I didn’t insert those statistics. Chuck and TW did.

    In 2003, Barry Bonds had 45 HR and 90 RBI.
    In 1985, Tom Herr had 8 HR and 110 RBI.

    Please argue that Tom Herr had the better year.

    I would LOVE to read that argument.

  54. John Says:

    I’m still waiting on a response to 31.

  55. Cameron Says:

    Tom Herr was ten percent the player and he had 120% his RBI total. By my math, that makes his season 12 times better than Barry Bonds’s career.

  56. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 39- It happens all the time.

    The Phillies had no interest in resigning Werth but they drove up the price on Washington by feigning interest.

    According to their beat writer at the Philly Daily News David Murphy, Amaro has also done it in recent years with other guys who wound up signing in the division just to make the other teams spend more.

  57. John Says:

    Hahahaha.

    I would love to have been a fly-on-the-wall for the Werth discussions.

    Assistant: What do you think boss? 3 year, 40M? Something like that?
    Boss: HIS LOCKS OF GOLD ARE WORTH THAT MUCH.

  58. Lefty33 Says:

    “Assistant: What do you think boss? 3 year, 40M? Something like that?
    Boss: HIS LOCKS OF GOLD ARE WORTH THAT MUCH.”

    LOL!

  59. Chuck Says:

    “Chuck would rather have Tom Herr than Barry Bonds”

    Where the hell did you come up with that?

  60. John Says:

    So, I could be wrong, but I think Wallace Matthews is actually advocating that the Yankees lose on purpose to the Tampa Bay Rays in the final series of the season:

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7007235/new-york-yankees-joe-girardi-co-bury-red-sox-weekend

  61. Chuck Says:

    “I’m still waiting on a response to 31.”

    Holding your breath?

    Not my argument.

  62. John Says:

    Ok Chuck.

    Find a 50-HR season and a season with less than 15 HR & over 100 RBI.

    I highly doubt that you’d actually take the 15&100 season.

    2003 Barry Bonds is exactly the kind of season you should hate. Low RBI-HR ratio, tons of walks…why couldn’t he think about THE TEAM!

  63. John Says:

    “Not my argument.”

    You called someone an idiot for suggesting that a .300 BA isn’t that valuable if you don’t draw walks.

    Mean what you say, Chuck. Which of those players do you think is better?

  64. Cameron Says:

    “2003 Barry Bonds is exactly the kind of season you should hate. Low RBI-HR ratio, tons of walks…why couldn’t he think about THE TEAM!”

    Because the Bonds-era Giants sucked titanic goat balls? I wouldn’t give a shit about them either.

  65. brautigan Says:

    John: Bonds was the worse kind of team mate. He never did think about “the team”. Never did, not once. He thought about one thing and one thing only: Barry Bonds.

  66. Chuck Says:

    “You called someone an idiot for suggesting that a .300 BA isn’t that valuable if you don’t draw walks.”

    Still not my argument.

    This conversation was going on long before I got here, and I repeated what someone else said.

    Tweet Joe Sheehan and ask him who he’d pick.

  67. John Says:

    My guess is that he would pick Joe Morgan over Placido Polanco.

    Not sure what you would do.

  68. John Says:

    “Never did, not once. He thought about one thing and one thing only: Barry Bonds.”

    I completely agree.

    But those walks and solo HR all led to a ton of wins that Benito Santiago, Marquis Grissom, and Shawon Dunston were just not going to produce.

  69. brautigan Says:

    JB @ 14: “Well, there’s no other justification for why Michael Young is that awesome.”

    Well, it’s not Young’s fault he has been yo-yoed around the Ranger infield. I mean, he has played 2B, SS and 3B and right now Texas employs exceptional fielders at these 3 positions. And who filled in when Beltre when down? Young.

    Young is a good, not great, player and he has done a fine as job as anyone to make Texas tick this season.

  70. Cameron Says:

    Joe Morgan was a great player by just about any metric, man. You can’t really use guys on levels that different. Even if Joe Morgan is a raging dumbass.

  71. John Says:

    “Young is a good, not great, player and he has done a fine as job as anyone to make Texas tick this season.”

    That’s a 100% accurate way of looking at it.

    He’s a solid player, a good #2 hitter.

    Not an MVP candidate, IMO.

  72. Cameron Says:

    Young’s a #2 in Texas, but I’d call him a #3 on most teams. Guy’s still one of the best contact guys you can find in the game.

  73. John Says:

    “You can’t really use guys on levels that different.”

    If you’re going to proclaim the importance of batting average while dismissing the importance of OBP, then that’s the kind of comparison you’re looking at.

    I mean, everyone pretty much agrees that Joe Morgan is an all-time great. He hit .271 with a bunch of team-damaging walks. Should he not be considered elite? Is he only elite for his fielding? What’s the deal here?

  74. John Says:

    “Young’s a #2 in Texas, but I’d call him a #3 on most teams. Guy’s still one of the best contact guys you can find in the game.”

    I would always bat Young @2, regardless of who I had on my team (well, not really).

    Being a good contact guy is EXACTLY the kind of thing I’m looking for.

    The fact that he doesn’t walk too much doesn’t bother me if he’s hitting second, because that spot in the order isn’t going to be seeing a lot of balls anyway.

  75. Raul Says:

    John reminds me of Stephen Colbert.

    Except when Stephen Colbert asked “George W. Bush: Great President? Or the Greatest President?” he was purposely being funny.

    Michael Young: .335/.377/.474, 104 rbi, 11 homers, 45 walks.
    Jay Bruce: .257/.341/.475, 94 rbi, 31 homers, 67 walks.

    Simply put, if you think Jay Bruce is having a better year than Michael Young, just give up on ever understanding baseball, my friend.

    Gonna try to be in Arizona for Spring Training 2012. Hope you can Cam will too. I gotta laugh at this in person, with a nice beer.

  76. Chuck Says:

    “If you’re going to proclaim the importance of batting average while dismissing the importance of OBP, then that’s the kind of comparison you’re looking at.”

    No it’s not.

  77. Cameron Says:

    Hm… How about I take two guys from this year with virtually identical OBP and you tell me who’s having the better year?

    Player 1: .341/27 HR/116 RBI, 68 walks
    Player 2: .293/34 HR/114 RBI, 102 walks

  78. John Says:

    “Jay Bruce: .257/.341/.475, 94 rbi, 31 homers, 67 walks.”

    Jay Bruce has a lower OBP, same slugging, worse OPS+ and a lower WAR than Young.

    Not the same comparison. Not even close.

    Don’t worry, I know who’s having a better year.

  79. John Says:

    @77, Gonzalez and Fielder?

    Obviously, Gonzalez. Especially because defense counts.

    But between Fielder and a guy like Aramis Ramirez? (.306, 42 walks). Gotta be Fielder.

  80. Cameron Says:

    Ha, good eye. I was leaving out other stats that might give it away like Gonzo’s higher SLG or the defense. Should’ve used more obscure comparisons.

  81. Chuck Says:

    “Not the same comparison. Not even close.”

    But Joe Morgan and Placido Polanco is?

  82. Cameron Says:

    So…

    If two guys have an identical BA, the higher OBP is a better hitter, and if the guys have the same OBP the higher BA is a better hitter.

    Seems simple enough.

  83. Raul Says:

    LOL
    Who would compare Morgan and Polanco? Unless you’re talking about height…

  84. brautigan Says:

    So John, using your reasoning, you would prefer to have Eddie Lake, Eddie Yost, and Frankie “The Crow” Crosetti in your lineup than Ernie Banks, Kirby Puckett or even Miggie Tejada?

    That is basically what you are saying.

    (And you put me in the position that FEELS like I’m trashing the walking man, which sucks because he was one of my favorite players as a kid and I have a 1949 Eddie Yost baseball glove STILL in use. DAMMIT!)

  85. John Says:

    “But Joe Morgan and Placido Polanco is?”

    Hey man, if you hate walks so much, Polanco’s your man.

    If you like winning at baseball, Morgan’s your man.

    Free country dude.

  86. Chuck Says:

    “Don’t worry, I know who’s having a better year.”

    Who?

  87. John Says:

    @84, this assumes all things are equal.

    Ernie Banks had a low OBP, but hit over 40 HR five times as a SS. Eddie Yost didn’t even have a .400 slugging.

    Yost’s career OPS+ is 109.

    Pass…

  88. Chuck Says:

    “Hey man, if you hate walks so much, Polanco’s your man”

    Sometimes I wish I could just reach through the screen and slap you silly.

    I never once, ever, said I hated walks.

    Not once.

    I just put them in their proper context.

  89. John Says:

    @86:

    “Jay Bruce has a lower OBP, same slugging, worse OPS+ and a lower WAR than Young.”

    But now that you know that Bruce has the lower WAR, are you going to flip-flop just so that you and WAR are on opposite sides?

  90. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think Chuck hates walks, I think he hates the idea that a walk is just as good as a hit. Walks move guys over very rarely, hits move guys over a lot more. Hits help you win the game far more often than walks. Both are good outcomes at the plate, but not equal. You think that trying to go for more hits leads to more outs, which it does, but that’s a side effect. You don’t make outs if you walk, but you hurt your team far more if you go out and look for a walk because you’re not looking to do anything more than hit first base.

    The only time you should be looking for a walk is probably after about the seventh or eighth pitch in an at-bat and you’re fouling shit off to wear the pitcher out.

  91. John Says:

    “I just put them in their proper context.”

    As non-outs.

    The worst kind of non-out, admittedly.

    But that’s like, the clumsiest blow-job. You really gonna complain?

  92. brautigan Says:

    No John, no pass. You said “walks are as good as hits” and Yost was THE walking man.

    You started this argument, you get to wear it.

    Now explain to me why you’d like Eddie Lake, and why he was a national treasure for the Detroit Tigers.

  93. Cameron Says:

    “But that’s like, the clumsiest blow-job. You really gonna complain?”

    …Have you ever actually had a bad blowjob? I have. I’ll take not getting blown over a bad one.

  94. John Says:

    ” I think he hates the idea that a walk is just as good as a hit.”

    Something that no one has ever said.

  95. brautigan Says:

    And NO guys, I didn’t see Eddie Lake play.

    IT comes with the territory of being a baseball geek.

  96. Cameron Says:

    “Something that no one has ever said.”

    No one except every little league coach who ever lived.

  97. brautigan Says:

    LOL @ 93. Teeth marks are a drag………….and a pain.

  98. John Says:

    “…Have you ever actually had a bad blowjob? I have. I’ll take not getting blown over a bad one.”

    I said “clumsy” … I’ll leave that to your imagination.

  99. Chuck Says:

    Who’s having the better year, John?

    Answer the goddamn question.

  100. Bob Says:

    1. Walks force the pitcher to up his pitch count.
    2. Walks force the pitcher to throw from the stretch.
    3. I am expecting some rainouts this weekend, and a 3-way tie for the wildcard between the Angels, Rays and Sox. Force baseball into November.
    4. T,G.I.F.!!!

  101. John Says:

    LOL @95

    @92…never said that hits = walks.

    Who are my options at SS besides Eddie Lake?

  102. John Says:

    @99, Young is.

    I think I made that rather clear.

  103. Cameron Says:

    Wow, did we really spend 3 posts talking about blowjobs on a baseball site? This really is the internet.

  104. Cameron Says:

    “1. Walks force the pitcher to up his pitch count.
    2. Walks force the pitcher to throw from the stretch.”

    This is why walks equal death to a pitcher. I’d rather just throw easy grounders than let an AB go long.

  105. Raul Says:

    It appears that John thinks we’re all saying Michael Young should be the MVP.

    Maybe it never occurred to him that it’s just an article on outside-the-box thinking and that it’s nice to make an effort to highlight a player who’s having a fantastic season and has been quite valuable to his team.

    …despite whatever that garbage WAR stat says.

  106. John Says:

    “…despite whatever that garbage WAR stat says.”

    …because of batting average.

    Which is also a statistic.

    That you learned about first.

  107. Cameron Says:

    I’m surprised the guys at ESPN think Justin Verlander should be MVP. You know what? I’d be happy if Verlander won the Cy Young. A starter hasn’t won the Cy since ‘86 and I’d like the latest MVP for a pitcher NOT be Dennis Eckersley, thank you very much.

  108. John Says:

    @107, wait, what?

  109. Cameron Says:

    The article said the guys at ESPN thought Verlander should be the MVP.

  110. John Says:

    You mean a starter hasn’t won the MVP since 1986…right?

  111. Cameron Says:

    Oh… Typos suck.

  112. brautigan Says:

    “This is why walks equal death to a pitcher. I’d rather just throw easy grounders than let an AB go long.”

    Cameron, I have two words for you: Bob Feller

    I could have made it four with: Nolan Ryan, but Feller was by far the better pitcher.

  113. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but they had the velocity to leave stuff over the middle and try and get guys to miss. I have to paint the corners with sinkers and sliders to get guys to ground out.

  114. brautigan Says:

    LOL, if you’re painting corners, you better have Eric Gregg be your umpire.

  115. Cameron Says:

    I live off the low corners, but I try and keep things in enough to get strikes called. It’s easier for me to get it down and right (down-in on righties) than down and left without making it run off.

  116. Chuck Says:

    Cam @#90

    That may be the best comment you’ve ever posted on this site.

  117. Cameron Says:

    Thank you, Chuck.

  118. Raul Says:

    Cam gets it @ Post #90.

    And he’s eating Spam sandwiches and Kool-Aid Coladas.

    I wonder what kind of brain food John is eating that allows his delusions.

  119. Cameron Says:

    Spam… Not that poor yet.

  120. Cameron Says:

    Been that poor before, though. Back when I was a kid and it was those “you wanna eat or do you wanna have electricity” months.

  121. Raul Says:

    Don’t run off the site like Shaun did, John.

    We still love you. Even if you’re usually wrong.

    :)

  122. Raul Says:

    Speaking of Shaun…

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/822341-genius-of-beane-moneyball-as-they-were-about-awareness-more-than-ingenuity

    It’s like reading one contradiction after another.
    Fits in perfectly at BR.

  123. Cameron Says:

    How firmly have we established that the early 00’s A’s were Alderson’s guys carrying the team on their backs? The only Beane singing I remember from then was Scott Hatterberg as a FA.

  124. John Says:

    “Don’t run off the site like Shaun did, John.”

    No worries.

    My mom’s painting the basement so I had to move all my stuff upstairs.

    Hey MA? How bout some meatloaf!

  125. John Says:

    “I wonder what kind of brain food John is eating that allows his delusions.”

    Walk-Bread.

    It’s about 80% as good as regular bread, but about 1/100th as expensive.

  126. Raul Says:

    Ma!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The Meatloaf!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I never know what she’s doing in there….

  127. Chuck Says:

    Glad to see Shaun found a place to write where he was equal intellectually to his audience, although he’d be better off repeating third grade.

  128. John Says:

    To be fair, you lambasted Shaun because he wanted to acquire Mike Napoli when Napoli wasn’t doing so hot…and he ended up hitting .320/.416/.614 in his role.

    I mean, who knows what it actually would’ve cost, but the Braves are currently in danger of blowing it to the Cardinals.

  129. Cameron Says:

    No, we lambasted Shaun for being a dumbass. We mildly poked fun at him for wnting to pick up Napoli.

  130. Cameron Says:

    If I go to see you guys in Arizona, do you mind if I take my cat? He seems to be taking residence in my suitcase.

  131. Chuck Says:

    “If I go to see you guys in Arizona, do you mind if I take my cat”

    There’s a Chinese restaurant around the corner that would pay good money for it. Help offset your travel expenses.

  132. Bob Says:

    Cam, is your cat sweet or sour?

  133. Chuck Says:

    “Michael Lewis discovered this and wrote an excellent book about it, a book and soon-to-be movie that changed baseball”

    “But the genius of Beane, to the degree that he is a genius, wasn’t that he reinvented the wheel with statistics. It’s that he did what few other teams in baseball history had done, and just paid attention to the fundamentals of the game. Those fundamental aspects also happened to be undervalued in the baseball player market.”

    Yep, once a dumbass, always a dumbass.

  134. Bob Says:

    What movie is that Ma, how about that meatloaf, from?

  135. Cameron Says:

    I think the cat’s a bit too old to be used as food. Wouldn’t fetch anything for him.

    *cat gives me death glare*

    What? You know it’s true.

  136. Raul Says:

    Wedding Crashers @ Bob.

    Will Ferrell scene near the end when Ferrell explains he crashes funerals.

  137. Bob Says:

    Raul,thanks. Perhaps I will rent it this weekend if this crap weather keeps up.

  138. Chuck Says:

    Come on, Cameron, is traveling with your cat really the only way you can get pussy?

  139. Bob Says:

    Yeah, that would be one clumsy BJ.

  140. Cameron Says:

    “We find your American beer is a little like making love in a canoe.”

    “Making love in a canoe?”

    “It’s fucking close to water.”

  141. Raul Says:

    badum bum @ Cam.

  142. John Says:

    BREWERS CLINCH!

    …dbacks too.

  143. Cameron Says:

    And the Rangers, but congrats John. I’ll be cheering for the Brew Crew on the days Fuck You Greinke isn’t pitching.

    …Watch, he wins Game 7 with a perfecto to piss me off.

  144. Cameron Says:

    Holy shit, Jeff Loria wants to spend on the Marlins? …He wants to try and sign Albert Pujols? Damn…

    You know the scary thing? He wants to jack up the Marlins’ payroll to about $75MM. If he got Pujols at 300 and 10, he’s still got about ten million to spend this offseason.

  145. Lefty33 Says:

    “Holy shit, Jeff Loria wants to spend on the Marlins?”

    Seeing as they have a new stadium coming on line next year it’s not surprising.

    Loria knows he has to do something to fill the building or else they will turn into the Pirates who have possibly the best looking stadium in Baseball but have ruined it by having guys like Russ Ohlenndorf in it since day one.

    I was just reading a story from the Miami Herald the suggests that while it’s no secret that McKeon will not be back next year by his own choosing it’s not a slam dunk that Guillen will be the manager because Loria does not want to give up minor league talent in exchange for a manager.

    The story also suggests the Albert is not the guy Loria wants to go after first, instead he wants C.J. Wilson. The rumor from the story seems to indicate that he will be willing at least for next year to increase the team’s payroll from its current 57 million dollar level to around 100 million based on new stadium revenues.

    The story also includes a sage quote from McKeon:

    “They should listen to the sage advice of McKeon, who said he did and would overpay for players if he was a general manager again, and that he admired George Steinbrenner. McKeon overpaid for Joe Carter, Terry Kennedy, Lamar Hoyt and Steve Garvey, among others.”

    “I learned that from Charlie Finley,” he said. “If you’re building a house and you run short of nails and you go down to the hardware store and nails cost $7.99 a pound and you see a hammer for 99 cents you don’t buy the hammer. You need the nails, so you overpay.”

    In this time of rebuilding and rejuvenation, the Marlins better not skimp on the nails.

  146. Cameron Says:

    I knew Loria wanted to spend, but he’s talking about looking at guys like Pujols and Fielder as future Fish. I didn’t know he wanted to spend THAT much. Loria’s the ultimate scumbag cheapskate owner.

  147. John Says:

    “it’s not a slam dunk that Guillen will be the manager because Loria does not want to give up minor league talent in exchange for a manager.”

    1) Guillen’s contract is up…I guess I’m hazy here, why would Loria give up talent.
    2) Didn’t he try to trade this one 20 year old power hitting right-fielder for Ozzie? Or something like that? Or was that something Kenny Williams asked for but just didn’t get.

  148. John Says:

    I’ve got a number for you:

    29,234.

    This was the attendance at Pro Player Stadium on September 22, 1997.

    The Mets (84-72, second in the wildcard) were playing the Marlins (90-65, leading the wildcard)

    Therefore, a Marlins victory would have secured the first playoff berth in the team’s young history (they lost the game, but that’s not the point).

    And 29,234 people showed up to watch.

    Yeah, it’s a crappy stadium (and was crappy even then), but man.

    You gotta wonder if the new ballpark and superstars will even make a difference.

  149. Cameron Says:

    I think he’s actually in Chicago through next season, John.

  150. Lefty33 Says:

    “1) Guillen’s contract is up…I guess I’m hazy here, why would Loria give up talent.”

    Like Cameron already said, Ozzie is under contract for next year and his issue is that they will not give him an extension and he has already publicly said that if he doesn’t get an extension he will/might not show up for ST.

    Pretty much next it is guaranteed that either Williams or Guillen, if not both, has to go and it will be interesting to see who Reinsdorf goes with.

  151. John Says:

    Ah, you’re right.

    I can see why the Marlins would want Ozzie. He’s one of like, 3 managers in the entire game that you can pin a face to. Big crowd-draw.

    If I’m Mike Stanton, I’m thinking, shit, here I am, 21-years old, a top-10 MVP candidate in the NL, and Ozzie’s probably going to have me sac-bunt or hit lefty or something.

  152. Lefty33 Says:

    “You gotta wonder if the new ballpark and superstars will even make a difference.”

    They had already sold out almost all of their suites and top tier seating behind the plate and up and down the 1st and 3rd base line as of March of this year so in terms of ticket sales they look golden for next year and beyond as a lot of those are based on multi-year agreements.

    That plus a retractable roof with A/C is huge.

    It’s now all on Loria to spend. No more excuses or bullshit.

    If he follows that new stadium success blueprint that Philly and Milwaukee took they’ll be a force. If they go with the Seattle or Pittsburgh route……..

  153. Lefty33 Says:

    “He’s one of like, 3 managers in the entire game that you can pin a face to. Big crowd-draw.”

    Plus there is the whole Latino angle with him, the team, and the community.

    Could be a huge crowd draw.

  154. John Says:

    Alright, fair enough.

    I just don’t get how a stadium could have less then 30K people for a clinching game. That’s astounding, regardless of the circumstances.

    “It’s now all on Loria to spend. No more excuses or bullshit.”

    Absolutely. He’s got the pieces in place – Gaby, LoMo, Stanton, Hanley’s around for a couple more years…now he just has to build around them.

  155. Cameron Says:

    And Josh Johnson and young pitchers like Ricky Nolasco and Anibal Sanchez (who’s 5th in the NL in Ks) to make a difference.

    To be fair, they’re contenders if they don’t touch the team at all. But if they add, do it through free agency and not hose the team with trades like the Dodgers.

  156. Lefty33 Says:

    Marlins had the same thing in ‘03 as in ‘97.

    In ‘03 they were like 15 or 16 back as of the start of July and then they just blitzed the league during July and September by playing .800 baseball in both months and when they clinched the WC at home they still only had maybe 30K in a place that held 65K.

    The people in Florida have so far made it clear that they will not support non-ST baseball whether the team is winning or not whether it’s in Tampa or Miami.

    To me that’s also why the the new Miami stadium will only hold 37K.

  157. Cameron Says:

    And probably why tickets will cost more, too. Then again, the Dolphins are primed to suck for a while, so maybe Miami will watch the Marlins instead.

  158. Bob Says:

    Or perhaps they will watch Cuban swimmers.

  159. Cameron Says:

    So…It seems laryngitis is having a field day. It’s going on around town here and my grandma’s getting it… and she lives three hours away.

  160. Chuck Says:

    The ML Stadium with the lowest seating capacity?

    The Marlins new park.

    23,000 would practically be a sell-out in the new place.

    Plus it’s in Little Havana, great move.

    Some of the promotions on tap for next season are Crack Pipe Tuesdays, Fidel Castro bobbleheads, interactive demonstrations on cocaine and human smuggling, body dismemberment, and sneaking weapons past airport security or customs.

  161. Lefty33 Says:

    “Some of the promotions on tap for next season are Crack Pipe Tuesdays, Fidel Castro bobbleheads, interactive demonstrations on cocaine and human smuggling, body dismemberment, and sneaking weapons past airport security or customs.”

    LOL

    They could probably shoot a whole season of COPS in the stands and parking lot.

  162. Cameron Says:

    “Some of the promotions on tap for next season are Crack Pipe Tuesdays, Fidel Castro bobbleheads, interactive demonstrations on cocaine and human smuggling, body dismemberment, and sneaking weapons past airport security or customs.”

    I actually have a stuffed Fidel Castro.

    …I salvage houses scheduled for demolition sometimes. You find good shit.

  163. John Says:

    Jesus Montero is having quite a day….

  164. Chuck Says:

    Yes, he is.

  165. John Says:

    By the way – Harold Reynolds agreed that Michael Young is an MVP candidate.

    Harold Reynolds THAT SAME DAY dropped a “clogging the bases” reference when talking about how unimportant OBP was.

    …sigh.

  166. John Says:

    btw Chuck, I trust your evaluation of Montero fully especially based on how long the Yankees took to call him up. The attitude thing is especially troubling.

    But you and I both know that you’d be over the top in criticism if he was 10/60 right now instead of hitting like .370, so I’m going to hypothetically call you out.

  167. Cameron Says:

    High OBP can result in clogging the bases if you put it on guys like Nick Johnson. Guy was great at getting on base, just never the base in front of him.

  168. Chuck Says:

    Montero’s hitting .353. Two days ago, he was hitting .267.

    When you’ve been in the majors three weeks, three hits does wonders for your average.

    He goes 0-10 in the doubleheader tomorrow and he’ll be right back under .300.

    He’s also on pace to strikeout 180 times over 162 games, convenient you didn’t mention that.

  169. Chuck Says:

    “Harold Reynolds THAT SAME DAY dropped a “clogging the bases” reference when talking about how unimportant OBP was.”

    Talking about out of context.

    I mean, there was obviously more to the discussion than just that comment, right?

  170. Chuck Says:

    Montero’s the fifth Yankee to have four homers in his first fifteen games, joining Oscar Azocar, Shelley Duncan, Steve Whitaker and Kevin Maas.

    Legends all.

  171. Chuck Says:

    Gerrit Cole officially assigned to the AFL, that brings the count to six of 2011 first rounders and marks the third straight season the overall number one pick has made his pro debut in Arizona.

  172. Cameron Says:

    Harold’s kinda right though. On-base percentage really isn’t important. Getting on base is, but OBP? Do you see any guys saying “Man, I really wanna get a .400 OBP” as much as you hear guys say “I wanna hit .300 this year”?

    OBP is a side-effect of a guy doing his job well, not the end-all.

  173. Lefty33 Says:

    If I were Charlie Manuel right now I’d be shitting my bed.

    Every aspect of the team right now is not working and I’ve just dropped eight in a row in some less than competitive ways.

  174. John Says:

    @172, then they have bad goals.

    @168, isn’t small sample size a bitch?

  175. John Says:

    Was Steve Whitaker related to Lou?

  176. Bob Says:

    Do not think so.

  177. Cameron Says:

    Man, Alex Gordon is just taking this year to look at all the people who said he was a bust out of the draft and say, “WHO’S THE BUST NOW BITCH!?”

    BA: .303
    OBP: .376
    SLG: .502
    HR: 23
    2B: 45
    SB: 17
    H: 185
    RBI: 87

  178. Cameron Says:

    With six days left in the season, MAtt Kemp is 3 homers away from going 40-40. Can he pull it off?

  179. Chuck Says:

    “Man, Alex Gordon is just taking this year to look at all the people who said he was a bust out of the draft and say, “WHO’S THE BUST NOW BITCH!?”

    On my way to the ER, just dislocated my shoulder patting myself on the back.

  180. brautigan Says:

    Steve Whitaker was a white guy, Lou, afro-American.

    At least that is how they looked on their baseball card.

  181. John Says:

    Brautigan – when I was collecting cards, I noticed that I had two cards of Tommy Gregg – one was with the Pirates and one was with the Braves. Pretty forgettable player, except he was a white dude with the Braves, and a black guy with the Pirates. Same birthdate and stuff on the back.

    So, just now, after reading your loosely related comment, I thought I’d look this up and see if anyone else had noticed it.

    Apparently the “Black Tommy Gregg” card goes for almost 30$:

    As you can gather from the link, Randy Milligan was actually the player pictured.

  182. Raul Says:

    “If I’m Mike Stanton, I’m thinking, shit, here I am, 21-years old, a top-10 MVP candidate in the NL, and Ozzie’s probably going to have me sac-bunt or hit lefty or something.”

    1. Nonsense.
    2. If the situation calls for a bunt, then bunt.

    The obsession with OBP is getting to be beyond pathetic.

    No, Matt Kemp will not get 3 more homers.

    Big Game James (not Lebron) goes for Tampa against the Yankees tonight.
    Josh Beckett goes for Boston against the Orioles.

    Atlanta has to beat Cliff Lee tonight to ensure they aren’t caught by the Cardinals. St. Louis plays the Astros with Wandy Rodriguez on the mound.

    Did not think STL would be in the hunt after their best pitcher went down this Spring.

  183. Cameron Says:

    Ozzie’s crazy, Raul. If he thinks Mark Kotsay is a major league DH, I won’t be surprised if he has Mike Stanton go to bat with an actual marlin as his bat.

  184. John Says:

    “2. If the situation calls for a bunt, then bunt.”

    If you think any situation in the entire world calls for Mike Stanton involves bunting, I would love you to help me out with this one Nigerian Prince who needs a little aid.

    “The obsession with OBP is getting to be beyond pathetic.”

    I love how its “an obsession” to do the most important thing you can possibly do in an at-bat.

    Raul, the school principle: “The obsession with graduation rates is getting out control here at West Centerville Academy”

  185. Chuck Says:

    He’s not talking about Ozzie Guillen’s or Mike Stanton’s obsession with OBP, he’s talking about yours.

  186. John Says:

    Gee, why would someone interested in baseball possibly be interested in the thing that, more than anything else in the game (easily) correlates with run scoring?

    That’s sure a mystery, isn’t it?

  187. Chuck Says:

    There’s a lot of players in the HOF John.

    None of them got there because of their walk rates.

  188. Cameron Says:

    John, you don’t score runs by just walking. Walking’s a good thing to do, but if you look for a walk every time, you won’t really do shit. Your job at the plate is to get a hit, but take your walks when you can.

  189. Raul Says:

    Ozzie Guillen is a punching bag because he’s outspoken, animated and perhaps not very refined. By no means is he crazy. That’s unfair. The guy has been in baseball his entire life and is successful. While some moves are questionable, I’d bet he knows more about the game than either of you combined.

    I’m not sure how many times it needs to be explained to John that nobody thinks OBP is unimportant. It’s simply not the end-all, be-all. Your constant straw-men arguments and assumptions about what people think when they disagree with you is just making you look like a sour asshole.

    As for Mike Stanton bunting, yes, there are situations that can arise where it calls for him to bunt. Just because you can hit the ball 500 feet doesn’t mean strategy ends. The fact that people are too arrogant to believe power players can homer every time up says more about them than it does about a manager who tries to win a game and sometimes it doesn’t work out. I could get into a whole page of reasons why Billy Martin was a smart manager but you dickheads wouldn’t learn a friggin thing anyway.

  190. Cameron Says:

    Oh, no doubt Ozzie’s a good manager, Raul. But as a guy who watches a lot of White Sox games (by virtue of sharing a division), the guy overthinks the hell out of his game. The guy still tries to play small ball despite the fact that a lot of his success came off of guys who can hit longballs. Ozzie’s an overmanager, so he’s a cheap joke for it.

  191. John Says:

    Raul, if Mike Stanton were on my team and the manager told him to give away an out, I would fire the manager right then-and-there. Pack your bags, you’re a dumbass.

    “The guy has been in baseball his entire life and is successful. ”

    Define “successful”

    He won a ring. Good for him. He small-balled his way to scoring ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FOUR FEWER RUNS in 2005 than in 2004. If he scared his rotation into having statistically improbable years that they would never repeat, good for him, but I doubt it.

    Since then he’s been, on average, about 83-79 while operating with a payroll that’s consistently the highest in his division. So I’m not jumping up and down with excitement about him being successful.

  192. Chuck Says:

    Ryan Howard runs pretty well for a big guy.

    If he dropped a bunt once i awhile, it would open up the field for him and spread the shift.

    Even if he got thrown out every time he bunted, he’d still have more hits in the long run because the shift is more spread out.

  193. Cameron Says:

    John, he’s held his job longer than three years. As an ML manager, that’s better than most can ever hope for. They’ve got the life expectancy of a goldfish in a skillet.

  194. Cameron Says:

    And Chuck, Howard gets shifted so bad most guys have third completely uncovered. A bunt would do him well, but some practice in the cage hitting shit down the left field line would probably do better.

  195. Raul Says:

    If Giambi tapped to 3rd, his orgasm-inducing OBP would have been in the .500s in the Bronx.

  196. John Says:

    Actually, I agree with post 192 completely.

    That’s why I emphasized “sac-bunting.”

    Now, Stanton’s a righty so it would be trickier, but if he’s skilled enough to push it just pass the pitcher.

    But I have no problem with a guy bunting for a hit, especially if it, like Chuck says, gets rid of the shift and opens up holes.

    If there’s a runner on first and zero outs, regardless of game situation, you’re a fucking idiot if you send Mike Stanton up there to move him over with a bunt.

  197. Cameron Says:

    Or Ozzie Guillen.

  198. Chuck Says:

    Howard hits a lot of balls to LF as it is, but spreading the shift doesn’t necessarily mean he’d get more hits there, he’d get more to his pull side because the holes are bigger.

    Good hitters learn to use the opposite field, bad hitters have to learn to pull.

  199. John Says:

    This is totally unrelated, but I would like to point out that Dugout Central is currently being sponsored by fashion week or some shit.

  200. Chuck Says:

    I saw Josh Hamilton last year in ST drop a bunt down the 3B line against a shift and he could have walked to first base.

    Next time up he faked a bunt and hit the next pitch 440 feet off the batter’s eye in dead center.

    Without the bunt, he doesn’t get that pitch.

  201. Cameron Says:

    Oh, the Nordstrom? Banner ads are randomly generated.

  202. John Says:

    @200, do you remember who the pitcher & catcher were?

    Seems like a mistake you shouldn’t see at the big league level (assuming that the reigning MVP is up there to bunt).

  203. Chuck Says:

    Sean O’Sullivan and Jeff Mathis.

  204. Mike Felber Says:

    Williams refused to hit to the opposite field, even when all including Ty Cobb were telling him to. But almost nobody has his ability to get away with that.

  205. Cameron Says:

    Wow, if he dropped that on Mathis, that must mean O’Sullivan must’ve fucked something up.

    …Not surprising. O’Sullivan is a fuckup.

  206. Chuck Says:

    It’s spring training, that’s what it’s for, to experiment.

  207. Chuck Says:

    Williams refused to make a concentrated effort to go against the shift, but he most certainly did hit to the opposite field on occasion.

  208. Raul Says:

    Ted Williams looked for pitches to pull and drive and layed off the stuff away.
    A guy like Wade Boggs would take try to poke that outside pitch to LF.

    It’s the reason Williams struck out so infrequently and walked so often. He didn’t TRY to walk. He didn’t TRY TO GET ON BASE. He tried to crush pitches in his zone and said “screw it” to everything else. The idea that Williams had tremendous eye-sight was something he shot down himself.

    But we have people who say Williams was awesome because of that OBP. It’s not like he tried to get high OBP rates. It’s a byproduct of his ability to hit the f*cking baseball.

    That’s what people who get into the OBP debate never understand, or at least, never acknowledge.

    It’s that high OBP and walk rates are the result of being a good hitter. It’s not that people have high OBP rates because they have tremendous patience.

    The tail does not wag the dog.
    That’s why Chuck has to repeat 4,000 times that BA is the driving force behind any good OBP.

  209. John Says:

    “It’s that high OBP and walk rates are the result of being a good hitter.”

    Um, yes.

    And low OBP and low walk rates are generally the result of being a…what, class? All together: a BAD hitter.

    “It’s not that people have high OBP rates because they have tremendous patience.”

    Yes they do.

    Watch a fucking game of baseball sometime.

    The guys with the highest percentage of first-pitch swings are the same guys who are at the very bottom of the league in on-base percentage and are generally useless.

    “The idea that Williams had tremendous eye-sight was something he shot down himself.”

    Ted Williams would prove how great his eye sight was by telling people during batting practice WHAT PART OF THE BASEBALL HE MADE CONTACT WITH after hitting the ball.

  210. Chuck Says:

    “The guys with the highest percentage of first-pitch swings are the same guys who are at the very bottom of the league in on-base percentage and are generally useless.”

    Vladimir Guerrero on line one, JD Drew on line 2

  211. Raul Says:

    It’s amazing. You’re consistently right about 1 thing, and wrong about 4 other things in the same comment.

  212. John Says:

    “Vladimir Guerrero on line one, JD Drew on line 2″

    2 players do not a narrative make.

    And I like how whenever you have to find a counter-example, your examples are guys like JD Drew and Bobby Abreu.

    That’s because those guys are some of the worst players with tremendous plate discipline, and yet, career-wise, they’re STILL PRETTY GOOD BALL-PLAYERS.

    Compared to guys like Yuniesky Betancourt, Christian Guzman, Miguel Olivo.

    For every Guerrero, there are 20 Betancourts.

  213. Chuck Says:

    “The guys with the highest percentage of first-pitch swings are the same guys who are at the very bottom of the league in on-base percentage and are generally useless.”

    This is what you said.

    I listed two examples which disprove what you said.

    Drew’s career OBP is .384.

    Not sure what you want.

  214. John Says:

    Do you know what “proof” is, Chuck?

    It’s not one player.

    Vladimir Guerrero has had an exceptional career swinging at bad pitches.

    Almost everyone else who has done that has been a failure.

    JD Drew has had a pretty solid career when healthy, and the reason he’s not terribly productive is that he’s always injured.

    Not because he doesn’t swing at shitty pitches like you want him to.

    “I have said that a good hitter can hit a pitch that is over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a questionable ball in a tough spot. The greatest hitter living can’t hit bad balls good.”

    - The Greatest Hitter Ever

  215. Raul Says:

    all of john’s opinions are based on the abilities of the worst players.

  216. Cameron Says:

    John, he’s not saying guys should intentionally swing at bad balls just to try and get a hit. I don’t think he’s ever said that once. I don’t even think he’s actually said walks are bad. He’s just saying the most important thing is getting a hit, not getting on base. Everything else is both sides putting words in the other person’s mouth.

    If you ask me, get on base as much as possible, but make sure you get hits on as many of those times on base as you can.

  217. John Says:

    @215, no.

    They’re based on the abilities of the league as a whole.

    They’re based off entire teams.

    12 teams have 100+ million dollar payrolls.

    Of those teams, 7 will definitely not be competing in October.

    Guess what 6 of those teams (the exception being the Mets, who have no pitching) have in common?

    Low OBP’s.

    Guess what the 5 who are competing (or might be competing in October) have in common?

    High OBP’s.

    Now look at every single year.

    Same damn thing.

    And yet you continue to cover your ears because, for some reason, you don’t want to know more about a sport you claim to love.

  218. John Says:

    “He’s just saying the most important thing is getting a hit, not getting on base.”

    And yet, OBP continues to correlate more closely to run scoring than BA.

    Every.
    Single.
    Year.

  219. Raul Says:

    You give an example of the right way to do things and if that example happens to be someone who excelled, John shoots it down as “well how many people are as good as Babe Ruth/Ted Williams?”
    And he completely misses the point. Because “well how many people are as good as Babe Ruth/Ted Williams” IS THE POINT.

    Instead of being some dumb ass numbers cruncher who just preaches that “X-player will not be good because the law of averages makes it unlikely”, take your head out of your ass and spend more time trying to understand why the minority who excel tremendously excel as well as they do.

    Because that’s the key to progress.

    Too many people are busy studying the yard stick instead of picking the motherf*cker up and moving it.

  220. John Says:

    “John shoots it down as “well how many people are as good as Babe Ruth/Ted Williams?””

    Babe Ruth: 3rd all-time in walks, 2nd in OBP
    Ted Williams: 4th all-time in walks, 1st in OBP

    Those two gentlemen are widely regarded as the two best hitters ever.

    The very best example I’m hearing of a player who often swings at first pitches: Vladimir Guerrero. A fine player. Probably a HOFer. A worse hitter than about 100 or so guys who waited for their pitch.

    So, in my corner: Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, and Barry Bonds.

    In your corner: Vlad Guerrero, Ichiro Suzuki, and I dunno, Michael Young.

  221. John Says:

    err…Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, and Barry Bonds in my corner.

    My corner couldn’t handle two Barry Bonds’s.

  222. Cameron Says:

    I think Pete Rose would also be in Chuck’s corner.

    …You know what, fuck this argument. I’m gonna go make a sandwich. Call me when some actual baseball talk is going on and y’all get the bitch out of your systems.

  223. Raul Says:

    Probably shouldn’t talk about corners.

    Corners infer boxing. And all your analysis couldn’t get you anywhere in boxing.

  224. John Says:

    Pete Rose had a .375 career OBP, finished top-10 in walks 7 times, and ranks 14th all-time in walks.

    I’ll take him too, and you can have…Pie Traynor.

  225. John Says:

    @223, if we were discussing boxing, you would be criticizing my fascination with “landing punches.”

    You know, the point of the sport.

  226. Chuck Says:

    “And yet, OBP continues to correlate more closely to run scoring than BA.”

    Yeah, tough as nails to score a run without getting on base, so I agree with you there.

  227. Chuck Says:

    “I’m gonna go make a sandwich”

    Spam-wich?

  228. Cameron Says:

    For the record, from what I can gather…

    What John Thinks Is Most Important: Getting On Base
    What Chuck Thinks Is Most Important: Crossing Home Plate

  229. Raul Says:

    No, we agree on landing punches.

    Just that you would love the head shots and everyone with a brain would notice the body punches.

  230. Cameron Says:

    ““I’m gonna go make a sandwich”

    Spam-wich?”

    Grilled cheese. Got this 3 pound tub of butter for two bucks a while back and it’s pretty much all I use it for.

  231. Cameron Says:

    “No, we agree on landing punches.

    Just that you would love the head shots and everyone with a brain would notice the body punches.”

    You notice the body punches and they wear guys down, but nothing brings a guy down faster than a haymaker to the skull, man.

  232. Raul Says:

    “and yet, OBP continues to correlate more closely than BA”

    Sure, especially when that OBP includes…OMG…BATTING AVERAGE!

    John = turkey sucks……..i’m loving this turkey sandwich.

  233. John Says:

    @228, how do you think you cross home plate?

  234. Cameron Says:

    By having the guy behind you get a hit. You really think walks alone score runs?

  235. Raul Says:

    “nothing brings a guy down faster than a haymaker to the skull man”

    How much boxing do you watch, Cam?

    Me thinks not enough.

  236. John Says:

    @232, that’s fair. I would much rather eat turkey in between two slices of bread with some cheese than just eating the turkey.

    Point still stands: given the choice between a player with a .300/.345 line and a .270/.390 line, you’ll take the first one, right?

  237. Cameron Says:

    To be honest, you’re right. The most boxing I get is a Rocky marathon. But I do know that it’s easier to get a knockout on a headshot than a body shot. However, it’s far FAR easier to land body shots, which is why you go for ‘em. They pile up over time. Don’t look for headshots, but if you see the guy leave his face open it’s your duty to turn it into red paste.

  238. John Says:

    “By having the guy behind you get a hit. You really think walks alone score runs?”

    Nobody thinks that. Nobody said that.

    Have I been advocating setting up a team where all the players hit .000/.400/.000?

    No?

    Cool.

  239. Cameron Says:

    John, I’ll take the .270 hitter, but you can’t pile up a bunch of guys good at getting on base in a vacuum. OBP alone a good ballplayer doesn’t make. It’s half the formula to me. The other half? Getting guys across the plate.

    You think the most important stat is OBP. To me, it’s OPS. If you’re only good at half the formula, you’re most likely in the bottom half of the order hoping for someone to push you across (OBP, no SLG) or a lucky DH or a bench player who’s looked at for the occasional XBH (SLG, no OBP). The good players? They do both. And you know how you get the other half of the formula?

    Hitting.

  240. John Says:

    Two teams:

    Team A has a .258 batting average and a .311 OBP.
    Team B has a .251 batting average and a .323 OBP.

    Which of these two teams is scoring more runs?

  241. Cameron Says:

    How should I know? You didn’t give us their run totals.

  242. Raul Says:

    Body punches make it possible for knockouts to the head.
    A boxer takes a few shots to the ribs, abs and sometimes kidneys (though illegal) and he’s protecting himself, which leaves him open for combinations and hooks to the head.
    Ever watch the first Mickey Ward/Arturo Gatti fight?

    Ward put on a clinic on body shots in that one. It just happened that Gatti was one of the toughest SOBs on the planet and lasted longer than probably anyone could have.
    But you don’t protect the head and take shots to the body. Just like you don’t start with your glove up, and bring it down when the grounder is hit.

    Start at the bottom and move up.

  243. John Says:

    That’s the point.

    Team A rode that higher batting average all the way to 3.8 r/g, and the worst record in baseball.

    Team B scores 4.5 r/g and is heading to the post-season.

  244. Cameron Says:

    I don’t really know much about boxing theory. I just know you hit what’s open.

  245. Chuck Says:

    “240

    The team with 76 more homers.

    It ain’t walks, genius.

  246. John Says:

    “I’ll take the .270 hitter, but you can’t pile up a bunch of guys good at getting on base in a vacuum.”

    I would love to have 9 Joe Morgans batting for me.

    Weirdly, they would hate all the walking and subsequent run scoring they did.

  247. Raul Says:

    Two teams:

    Team A has a .258 batting average and a .311 OBP.
    Team B has a .251 batting average and a .323 OBP.

    Which of these two teams is scoring more runs?

    ——–

    Arizona. They slug better.

  248. John Says:

    Fine Chuck:

    Team A: .243/.320/.401
    Team B: .257/.315/.402

    Which team do you want hitting for you?

  249. Cameron Says:

    Tampa, the pitching’s better by a country mile.

  250. John Says:

    I didn’t ask about pitching.

    Just hitting.

    Same slugging, 14-pt difference BA’s, 5-pt difference in OBP’s.

  251. Cameron Says:

    You can’t take the pitching out of Tampa’s success, dude. Tampa and Chicago may look similar hitting on paper, but if you gave those teams the same pitching neither is going to be anything special.

  252. John Says:

    “but if you gave those teams the same pitching neither is going to be anything special.”

    But Tampa is going to score 50 more runs despite a lower batting average.

    Why are they going to do this?

    They have over 100 fewer hits, 60 fewer total bases…how are they scoring 50 more runs?

  253. brautigan Says:

    John: Baseball is much more than getting on base and avoiding outs. I mean, when people say “bunting is giving away an out” I just want to vomit. Don’t you think Miggie Tejada could have bunted more often than leading the league in grounded into double plays? I mean, that’s TWO OUTS! That’s bad karma in your world.

  254. Cameron Says:

    Because they hit 20 more homers.

  255. brautigan Says:

    On youtube, there is a video of Gentleman James Corbett vs. Bob Fitzsimmons. Corbett is winning that fight until Fitzsimmons hits him in the liver. Corbett goes down and is paralyzed, he can’t move, can’t get up.

    Go watch some old Salvador Sanchez fights on youtube. For my money, he may be the greatest fighter I have ever seen. If he was the same weight as Floyd Mayweather, he would have beaten him to a pulp.

  256. Chuck Says:

    A

  257. John Says:

    “Because they hit 20 more homers.”

    Largely cancelled out by the 20 fewer doubles and 100+ or so fewer singles.

    @252, Brautigan, Miggy Tejada sucks. Mike Stanton is awesome.

    I have no problem if Jeff Mathis sac-bunts.

  258. brautigan Says:

    John: 1959 Chicago White Sox tied for second in the league in walks. They were 7th in runs scored. They were dead last in hitting home runs. They won the American League title.

    I’d like an explanation.

  259. Cameron Says:

    You know….. Is it just me, or do we all think that the same things are good here and we’re just arguing over priorities?

  260. brautigan Says:

    Didn’t Tejeda at one time have 150 rbi’s in one season? Yeah, that is the worst player since Craig Robinson.

  261. Cameron Says:

    Maybe he’s talking Tejada now. The guy’s out of a job and Mike Stanton is set to become a star.

    Then again, Tejada’s in his mid-to-late 30s and Stanton’s in his early 20s so that ain’t fair.

  262. Chuck Says:

    “Which team do you want hitting for you?”

    Who do YOU want..and if you say Tampa because of their five point advantage in OBP, you’re a bigger tool than Joe Sheehan.

  263. Cameron Says:

    …As a pitcher, I’m feeling insulted that there’s so much importance on scoring runs as being the most important thing in baseball. That’s how you win, but the pitchers are there to stop you from doing that.

  264. brautigan Says:

    Bill James made note that great pitching comes in clusters. He posited that we are in one of those clusters….I mean, guys like Verlander, Hamels, Kershaw, King Felix. He may be on to something.

  265. Raul Says:

    Floyd’s a great fighter. But like all of these newer black fighters, he is afraid (incapable?) of taking a punch.

    Not a racial thing meant to denigrate, it’s just the truth.

    The only one that can take a hit is Shane Mosley.

    On the other hand, Mexican fighters? You damn near have to kill them to get a KO.

    Had Mayweather fought in another era, I wonder how his career would have turned out. Or maybe it wouldn’t have turned out at all, given how much ducking he’s done back when Mosley, Barrera, Marquez and Morales were at their peak.

    Christ, the guy was struggling against Luis Castillo.

  266. Cameron Says:

    I wouldn’t say they come in cloisters, they tend to manifest in decades. Let’s look at the last century.

    1900s – Good Pitching
    1910s – Good Pitching
    1920s – Bad Pitching
    1930s – Bad Pitching
    1940s – Bad Pitching
    1950s – Bad Pitching
    1960s – Good Pitching
    1970s – Good Pitching
    1980s – Bad Pitching
    1990s – Good Pitching

    This last decade or so? …I dunno, good I guess. The 80s was more a hiccup in the trend, but I think we’re still a decade away from the hitters winning the battle again.

  267. John Says:

    That’s the whole point.

    5 points of OBP means a shit-ton more than 14 points of BA.

  268. Cameron Says:

    A win by decision is as good as a win by knockout, Raul. Mayweather knows if you don’t get hit, the judges score in your favor. It’s a bitch tactic, sure, but it’s working for him.

  269. Raul Says:

    In boxing, it matters how you win. Not just that you win.
    That’s probably truer in boxing than it is in any other sport.

  270. brautigan Says:

    Raul: That’s why I love those old Sandy Saddler fights. That guy would use his elbows, his thumbs, or the laces of his gloves to win a fight.

    And I recall the Mexican and Puerto Rican fans booing the hell out of Hector “Macho” Camacho. He would hit and run and run and run. Great boxing skills, boring as hell to watch.

  271. brautigan Says:

    1950’s had bad pitching? That must be news to Billy Pierce, Robin Roberts, Johnny Antonelli, Whitey Ford, Herb Score (before the eye injury), Warren Spahn, Don Newcombe, Bob Lemon, Mike Garcia and Virgil Trucks.

  272. Raul Says:

    I’m going to try to find footage of Saddler.
    Thank you

  273. Cameron Says:

    Well, the 50s were a “maybe” on the bad pitching. But the difference in quality from top pitchers from the 50s versus guys from the 50 years after them, aside from guys like Spahn you tend to see quality drop off.

  274. brautigan Says:

    “The only one that can take a hit is Shane Mosley.”

    HE takes too many. Way too many.

    Catch the Earl “the Pearl” Hargrove vs. John “The Beast” Mugabi fight. It was on St. Patricks day around 1986 or so. Very, very intertaining, a fight on youtube.

  275. brautigan Says:

    Saddler vs. Willy “The Wisp” Pep. Classic fights. When you watch them, you realize you’re seeing two great fighters go at it.

  276. brautigan Says:

    John: Sorry to give you so much grief. You would have loved late 40’s baseball. You had many more walks than strikeouts. YOu were born two generations too late my friend.

  277. Cameron Says:

    I was spoiled when it came to baseball. Sure it was tainted with steroids to high holy hell, but the larger than life guys hitting baseballs to the moon and pitchers throwing triple digit heaters on command was awesome to a kid.

  278. Raul Says:

    Yeah, Moseley takes a lot. Especially now. But he can take them.

    A lot of these guys now freak out with a little cut.

  279. John Says:

    @271, Relatively speaking is what Cam meant.

    @260, Miggy sucks now, not in 04.

    @258, great pitching won that pennant.

  280. John Says:

    LOL @276…wasn’t 1940’s baseball kind of diluted due to all the able-bodied men fighting a war (as well as all the different-looking men being forced into a separate league)?

  281. John Says:

    “Who do YOU want..and if you say Tampa because of their five point advantage in OBP, you’re a bigger tool than Joe Sheehan.”

    I want the team that has the 5-point advantage in OBP.

    Not coincidentally, they also have the 50-run advantage.

    They also have the 100 million dollar disadvantage.

    And yet the not-running-the-team-like-a-dinosaur advantage.

  282. Cameron Says:

    They have that advantage because their GM isn’t the subject of incriminating photos with a flock of goats and a Laotian pool boy in Alfonso Soriano’s possession.

    …That’s the only explanation I have to that contract.

  283. Chuck Says:

    “The only one that can take a hit is Shane Mosley.”

    And yet he was boxing’s biggest fraud over the past 20 years.

    He kills everyone he goes up against, then goes out against de la Hoya and fights like Pee Wee Herman.

    Those fights were fixed.

  284. Chuck Says:

    I met Willie Pep once, at a roadside diner in Connecticut.

    That’s where Pep was from.

    I’ve met Hank Aaron and Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe, among others, but when I walked in and saw him sitting at a table, I about jizzed myself.

    I have an autographed menu from the diner.

  285. Chuck Says:

    OK, John, that’s enough.

    First of all, you bust my chops for “being selective” or random picking Guerrero and Drew on one point, then go to BR and do the exact same goddamn thing when picking your teams.

    Do me a favor..make your selections relevant to the discussion and not to your point.

    An NL Central team against an AL East team?

    Give me a break.

    The fucking Blue Jays would win the NL Central.

    And yet you’re trying to formulate an argument based on those two teams.

    Bleacher Report on line one.

  286. Cameron Says:

    Stuffed Fidel Castro does not approve of Bleacher Report.

    By far one of my strangest possessions, but I love it.

  287. John Says:

    “An NL Central team against an AL East team?
    Give me a break.
    The fucking Blue Jays would win the NL Central.”

    1) No, they wouldn’t.
    2) That makes the difference MORE extreme. The Rays have outperformed the Cubs IN A HARDER DIVISION despite fewer hits and a lower batting average. Compare what the Rays and their payroll have done compared to the Cubs and their payroll in a harder division.

    Good thing the Cubs ignored the new school way of doing things.

  288. Cameron Says:

    The Cubs don’t suck because of their OBP, they suck because they’ve got bad pitching and have a clubhouse that resmebles Da Nang circa 1970.

  289. Raul Says:

    You mean the new school way of valuing the same thing that old school people have valued for like 140 years?

    Cool story bro.

  290. Cameron Says:

    Been monitoring the CBA negotiations. The Draft is interesting. I haven’t seen any headway on an international draft, slotting seems like it’ll stay soft like it is, but there’s a big support for an earlier signing date.

    Thank god, the August 15th deadline is too much time.

  291. Cameron Says:

    Scoring runs is important. …Um, duh?

  292. Raul Says:

    “After some tough negotiations, we’ve decided to move up the signing deadline from August 15th to August 10th.”

    Really? Holy fucking shit you old bastard. That’s amazing!

  293. Chuck Says:

    “No, they wouldn’t.”

    Um, yeah, they would.

    The Brewers wouldn’t win any AL division.

    The DH impacts the difference between the two leagues more than anything, especially strategy wise.

    Top to bottom, the AL is a much better league with a deeper talent pool. Their minor league systems are better, the bottoms of the rosters are better, not even a debate.

    It’s a cyclical thing and in ten years it will probably be different, but the argument is today.

    Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder are studs, but with the exception of a healthy Rickie Weeks, there’s no one else on the Brewers that could START for the Jays.

    Give it a rest, John.

    The only thing worse than me being right is you knowing I’m right.

    Figured you would have learned by now.

    Shaun finally did.

  294. Cameron Says:

    Ha… You know, I’d take it, though. Anything to shorten that gap. I’d give the kids like, maybe a month after the draft.

  295. Raul Says:

    Nice play by Desmond Jennings on a shot by Derek Jeter.

  296. Cameron Says:

    I dunno Chuck, the pitching has guys like Marcum, Gallardo, and Axford who are really damn good this season. They’re a huge part of the team’s success.

  297. Chuck Says:

    Anyone who thinks draft bonuses and contracts aren’t agreed upon well before the deadline is missing the boat.

    The problem is agents are worried about announcing deals early because they’re afraid their guy will get less than a guy picked behind them, so everything is structured.

    What MLB needs is an NBA draft.

    This is where you’re picked…this is your contract.

    Take it or go drive a fucking cab somewhere.

  298. Cameron Says:

    Or the NFL. They finally put a hard cap on draftees. Cam Newton’s making less than half the money Sam Bradford is. Newton’s also less than half the QB Bradford is, but that’s beside the point.

  299. Chuck Says:

    Really, Cameron?

    The same Shaun Marcum who got shipped out of Toronto for a minor leaguer because he couldn’t get out bench players in intra-squad games?

    THAT Shaun Marcum?

  300. Cameron Says:

    What can I say? Guy’s having a hell of a year, man. I give credit where credit’s due.

    Granted, the Jays wouldn’t want him back the way Lawrie’s playing.

  301. John Says:

    “The same Shaun Marcum who got shipped out of Toronto for a minor leaguer because he couldn’t get out bench players in intra-squad games?”

    That minor leaguer was BRETT FUCKING LAWRIE.

    Seriously, do you know anything? Like, at all?

    By the way:

    Shaun Marcum, 2010 in the AL East: 115 ERA+, 1.147 WHIP, 7.6 K/9
    Shaun Marcum, 2011 in the NL Central: 118 ERA+, 1.117 WHIP, 7.4 K/9

    Pretty much the same.

    And both seasons are very solid.

  302. Cameron Says:

    Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Reinsdorf are really butting heads over Guillen’s contract extension. Reinsdorf wants to keep him longer, but less per year. Ozzie…

    “Fuck the years, I want the money.”

    I’ve called Ozzie Guillen many things, but boring is never one of them.

  303. brautigan Says:

    Chuck: LOL, sometimes you say some howlers. THAT Shaun Marcum was traded for Brett Lawrie. Lawrie has a fine future in front of him if he can keep his head straight. And Marcum has pitched really well the past two seasons, especially since he came back from Tommy John surgery.

    I’d take him for my team.

  304. brautigan Says:

    I’m still laughing.

    Can someone tell me how Ellsbury has hit 31 homeruns this year?

    AND, I recall Kevin Youkilis calling him out last year, saying he was “soft”. Youkilis can go fuck himself.

  305. Cameron Says:

    Ellsbury broke his ribs making diving plays any other left fielder in the league didn’t need to dive at and would be fine if they did. Kid’s fragile.

    As for the 31 homers, uh…. Fuck me if I know.

  306. Chuck Says:

    Hey, John, Home Depot called, they’re missing a tool.

    I gave them your number.

    “AND, I recall Kevin Youkilis calling him out last year, saying he was “soft”. Youkilis can go fuck himself.”

    Youkilis was right.

    Ellsbury’s season may be the most freakish “career year” in the history of the game.

    Some guys, like Brady Anderson, have career years due to outside influences.

    Some guys, like Cory Snyder, have career years in a narrow, offensive window.

    Some guys, like Denny McLain, have career years in a narrow pitching window.

    What Ellsbury has done this year defies logic.

    Nothing he has done can be explained.

    I’m sorry, I couldn’t be more surprised if Mario Mendoza won the Triple Crown.

  307. Mike Felber Says:

    Williams only occasionally hitting to the opposite field means little. He was virtually a dead pull hitter, & easily could have thwarted the shift & padded his stats by hitting against it. Out of cussed Ego he made a dumb choice, yet since he did so much else right, & had great talent, he was amongst the best hitters ever.

    Vlad & Soriano types are rare outlier bad ball hitters. While he likely could be even better adopting more of the “patient” approach, he may not have it in his temperament.

    A bitch tactic to stick & move. Ridiculous. You could make a case for that re: doing whatever you can to win, low blows, hitting with elbows, clinching constantly, head butting-they are illegal, poor sportsmanship, you are trying to win & hurt a man on an uneven playing field. I love the sluggers too, but even a jab & circle/run guy could out slug most all whop critique him. But against the greatest fighters, you have an obligation to use whatever tactic wins without cheating.

    THE OBP debate can be 6 of 1, 1/2 a dozen…But OBP is so important due to it containing all ways you get on base. A walk has most of the value of a single, sometimes less, sometimes the exact same. Occasionally avoids a DP too. A hitter can be very valuable being great at only this OR slugging, though high OBP does correlate more with runs scored than high slugging.

    It is an interesting thing to compare the best non-HW boxers of today vs. yore. If they are the same weight, there is a limit to the modern advantage in athleticism, since they cannot just be bigger with more muscle. Sometimes the modern guys have more speed or athleticism, & sometimes less skill & toughness.

  308. Chuck Says:

    The point isn’t who the Jays got for Marcum it’s how willing they were to trade him.

    From the Jays standpoint, Lawrie’s a native Canadian and he would have impacted the box office even if he performed like Angel Berroa.

  309. John Says:

    Doug Fister has 12 runs of support today.

    From June 4 through July 15 (8 starts), Doug Fister received 11 runs of support.

    He’s also pitching a shutout through 8. What a fantastic pick-up by Detroit.

  310. Cameron Says:

    Doug Fister was a great pickup, but I think Detroit may still have given too mmuch for him.

  311. Chuck Says:

    “A walk has most of the value of a single, sometimes less, sometimes the exact same.”

    A walk has zero value of a single, stat boy.

    Which is kind of the point of this whole, never ending debate.

    Two guys who played the game at a high level vs. two guys who never played.

    Not even a debate who wins.

    Contradicting opinions notwithstanding.

    And before you respond with a Shaun-ism, John, “playing” and “having a uniform” are as different as night and day.

  312. John Says:

    “What Ellsbury has done this year defies logic.”

    That seems to happen a lot with Chuck.

    He gets pissed off when people attribute things like abnormally high BABIP to “luck” but considers the good season of any player he didn’t like as a prospect to flukiness

    Or vice versa.

    “The point isn’t who the Jays got for Marcum it’s how willing they were to trade him.”

    For a TOP PROSPECT.

    Holy shit. Lawrie is awesome, Marcum was only hanging around for a couple years. Stop pretending like terrific players are bad. It’s just embarrassing for you when they dominate.

  313. Cameron Says:

    John, Ellsbury doesn’t have the muscle to open a pickle jar by himself. I defy you to explain how this little pussy is hitting 31 homers.

  314. John Says:

    “A walk has zero value of a single, stat boy.”

    You reach first without committing an out.

    90% of the time, it’s the exact fucking same.

    That’s why teams with lots of walks score lots of runs, and teams without lots of walks don’t…it’s why all these non-SABR teams with huge payrolls are near the bottom of the league in runs scored.

    “John, “playing” and “having a uniform” are as different as night and day.”

    I played just as much in the majors as you did.

    The fact that I was actually good at something else doesn’t matter.

    Because at the end of the day, I recognize what creates wins and you’re completely clueless.

  315. John Says:

    ” I defy you to explain how this little pussy is hitting 31 homers.”

    Who cares if a player is actually good at baseball. What matters is if they “feel” like they’re really good at baseball.

  316. Chuck Says:

    Look at Ellbury’s career numbers, including his minor league numbers, and try and convince me you knew he was capable of doing what he did this year.

    I fucking DARE you.

    Before the trade, you never heard of Brett Lawrie, or at the very least hadn’t seen him play, so do us both a favor and stop trying to blow smoke up my ass.

    Way smarter people than you have tried and failed.

    The Jays took Lawrie for one reason..native Canadian and the box office.

    You could have GUARANTEED the Jays he’d be the next Yuni and they still would have made the deal.

    Wake the fuck up.

  317. Cameron Says:

    I’m not saying Ellsbury’s bad at baseball. Bad at fielding maybe, but not a bad player, but this guy is Brett Gardner with native american heritage. The guy hasn’t shown any flashes of power at any level and now he’s a 30 homer hitter. It’s Brady Anderson, Act 2.

  318. John Says:

    “Before the trade, you never heard of Brett Lawrie, or at the very least hadn’t seen him play, so do us both a favor and stop trying to blow smoke up my ass.”

    Right, I had never heard of the top position prospect in my favorite team’s organization.

    Maybe you had never heard of him because he didn’t “feel” like a big time player.

    “The Jays took Lawrie for one reason..native Canadian and the box office.”

    Pre-2009: Rated #81 Prospect
    Pre-2010: Rated #59 Prospect
    Pre-2011: Rated #40 Prospect

    Maybe you would acquire a player just because he’s from the same general place as your team.

    But teams that want to win games (something that, based on your hatred of good players, isn’t what you’d be interested in) aren’t professional fuckups for a living and actually try to be good at their jobs.

  319. Chuck Says:

    “90% of the time, it’s the exact fucking same.”

    It’s never the same, dumbass.

    Do you put the ball in play on a walk?

    Unless the bases are loaded, can you drive in a run with a walk?

    Is there the option of an error, bad hop, lost in the sun, skip off wet turf option on a walk?

    With the following hitter, does a walk have more a negative effect on the pitcher than if he gave up a hit?

    Pitchers give up intentional walks all the time.

    When did you ever see a pitcher give up an intentional hit?

  320. Chuck Says:

    “Right, I had never heard of the top position prospect in my favorite team’s organization.”

    “..or had never seen him play…”

    Sorry, I can’t speak any slower.

    Would sign language help?

  321. Chuck Says:

    John, you ignorant slut…if Lawrie was fucking Dominican, he’d still be a Brewer.

    I don’t know how else to explain this to you.

  322. Cameron Says:

    ….God dammit. Time to put up the sign.

    http://forum.gon.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=615781&stc=1&d=1313165072

    I’m going to bed, you children try not to stay up too late and if you do kill each other, clean up the bloodstains by the time I come back.

  323. John Says:

    “Pitchers give up intentional walks all the time.”

    That’s during the other 10% of the time, dumbass.

    “Is there the option of an error, bad hop, lost in the sun, skip off wet turf option on a walk?”

    Chuck would actually sign players based on the possibility them popping a ball up and having it get lost in the sun.

    I’ll take the ability to work the count and beat your team 80% of the time.

  324. John Says:

    “John, you ignorant slut…if Lawrie was fucking Dominican, he’d still be a Brewer.”

    No.

    You’re obsessed with this notion that
    a) Marcum is bad (not true, based on a very solid last two seasons)
    b) Lawrie is just on the team because he’s Canadian (not because he was thrice ranked in the top-100 prospects in America).

  325. John Says:

    Matt Kemp with a 3-R HR to take sole possession of the NL HR lead.

  326. Cameron Says:

    *sigh* Can’t sleep and I’ve got no one else to talk to.

    With guys like Matt Kemp and Curtis Granderson having mammoth years, is it me or is there a huge upswing in power from ML centerfielders this season? The past few years, CF hasn’t been a big power position and now they’re looking like first basemen.

  327. Cameron Says:

    Whoa… I knew the negotaiations were going bad, but holy shit, man.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110926&content_id=25245790&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

  328. John Says:

    No manager is worth this kind of hassle, or frankly, money.

    Good riddens for Chicago.

  329. Cameron Says:

    Ozzie knows how to get the best out of the players who can handle him and he’s a hell of a motivator. He was also on really good terms with Kenny and Jerry, he was hero-worshipped in Chicago. I actually have a buddy up there who’s a huge White Sox fan, we have good ribs at each other about the rivalry between them and KC. Ozzie means a lot to that team.

    Honestly? I think Miami’s offering him more money than Reinsdorf wants to pay up and this is him bolting.

  330. John Says:

    He can’t just opt-out, right?

  331. Cameron Says:

    Technically, he’s still under contract but he said he wouldn’t come back next season without an extension. If Chicago hasn’t already fired him, they’ll do it in the next day or so because he won’t come back.

  332. Chuck Says:

    Cam..Ozzie wants Florida.

    He has WS rings with both Florida teams and is close to his home and native country.

    With the new park and “new” budget, Ozzie’s going to get to the playoffs faster in FL than with Chi.

    Ozzie story for you.

    Spring training, 2001.

    After the 2000 season with Tampa, Ozzie had announced his retirement, but the White Sox called and invited him to ST as a non-roster player. They gave him a legitimate chance to make the team but at the same time gave him the opportunity to retire as a White Sox.

    Jerry Reinsdorf owns the Sox and is a Scottsdale resident. The team came up to Scottsdale for their first roadie of the spring and threw a big bash at the team hotel. He did this every year, so don’t think Ozzie had anything to do with this.

    Anyway, my wife and I, and a friend and his wife who happened to work for the A’s and some others got invites, so we show up.

    My friend’s wife is hotter than the sun, no shit.

    We’re all hanging around, like the whole 2001 White Sox team and a handful of local celebs.

    My buddies wife goes up to the bar with my wife and her aunt to get a round, and guess who shows up trying to pick them up.

    My wife and her aunt speak Spanish so they caught on to him pretty quick, but our friend didn’t, so he was kind of gross in his attempt to, well, you know.

    It finally got to the point where the girl’s husband and my wife’s uncle went up to him at the bar and threatened to bury him at a roadside truck stop that he backed off.

    And instead of apologizing, he just went to the end of the bar and tried for someone else.

    Scuzzbag.

  333. Chuck Says:

    Ken Harrelson just announced on the White Sox TV broadcast that Ozzie will not manage the last two games of the season and will be announced as the Marlins manager on Thursday.

  334. John Says:

    Hahaha, wooooow.

    Good story.

    That’s why we keep you around :D

  335. Cameron Says:

    Heh, sounds like Ozzie.

  336. Chuck Says:

    “That’s why we keep you around.”

    LOL..compared to the six months I spent in New York working for the Rangers, that story is third grade sleepover stuff.

    The ugliest girl I was with is better looking than the hottest girl you’ve ever been with.

    I’ve seen super models and Miss USA contestants left at the bar.

    (Got to go, cold water running in the shower)

  337. Cameron Says:

    Silly Chuck, John’s in the Navy.

  338. John Says:

    “The ugliest girl I was with is better looking than the hottest girl you’ve ever been with.”

    LOL.

    You wish buddy.

  339. Raul Says:

    You know who was the 40th prospect in 2009? Brett Wallace. Who was 39th? Aaron Hicks.

    Tim Beckham was 29th.

    Respect to the lists, but Brett Lawrie wasn’t really shit before this season.
    He was a .270 hitter with decent pop at A-ball.

    He increased his BA by 70 points this season and made a bigger name for himself.

    Nobody really gave a shit about Lawrie this year, because if you did, you would have gotten more than Shaun Marcum for him.

  340. Cameron Says:

    He was seen as decent. .270 with pop is great for second base (his position until this season), he had promise.

    He was also the only person worth a damn in the Milwaukee minors. Milwaukee traded the farm away for Marcum because the only other kid worth anything is in Northwest Arkansas.

    By the way, thanks Milwaukee! He and Alcides are working out great.

  341. Raul Says:

    Yeah, whatever. Not saying he’s a scrub.
    Just saying he wasn’t Joe Mauer and shit.

    People in Boston have to be flipping out now.
    Tampa needs to keep it up with a huge win tomorrow.

  342. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think anyone thought he’d be THAT great. Guy got as high as #40 after all. He was seen as a kid who was maybe suspect defensively, but had the offensive upside of Ian Kinsler at second.

    And half of Ian Kinsler is better than 95% of the second basemen in the majors.

  343. Raul Says:

    Funny.
    I think Ian Kinsler is one of the most overrated players in the game.

    He benefits a lot from playing in Texas.

  344. Cameron Says:

    Doesn’t exactly make great contact, but a 30-30 threat with his glove is a hell of an asset. He’s like Dan Uggla if Dan Uggla could field.

    …Florida Uggla, not Atlanta Uggla.

  345. Raul Says:

    Kinda was hoping some of the KC pitching talent would have a chance to develop in September.

    What’s the outlook for 2012?

  346. Cameron Says:

    Realistically? .500 if the pitching develops. Lamb lost time to TJ, but guys like Montgomery and Dwyer will be up, Odorizzi if he’s hot in ST, Crow might go to the rotation. However, that’s a very green crop of starters and it won’t really click.

    The offense? Largely unchanged, except Melky may not be back, so Cain might start in center.

  347. Raul Says:

    Why would Crow go to the rotation next year?

    Seems like he should have made the move this year.

  348. Cameron Says:

    He should’ve, given the abysmal state of our starters. However, he’s been the only guy in the bullpen who’s reliable given Joakim’s sudden dropoff in competence.

    Not quality, but anyone who decides to can their best pitch for something my grandma can hit is incompetent.

  349. Mike Felber Says:

    Not all folks who played at a high level believe as you do Chuck. And many who have are more ignorant about certain things than “stayboys”.

    A walk is demonstrably most of the value of a hit. We clearly have been talking about the average value. You reciting possibilities of how a single can often mean more does not change what we talked about with Kerry & others a long while ago, & we can measure it-add up all the good things a single can do, they are more than than the value of a walk/you can subtract from working the count & hitting into DPs. So maybe it is 80%, but it is a logical fallacy to just name a bunch of stuff & act like a walk is like a walk is a homeopathic/miniscule benefit.

    You can add together all the ways you can due in every conceivable accident-still the monstrously overwhelming % of folks will not perish in one. A single is slightly better than a hit on average: usually they have the same value, sometimes a single does more. And both have the large value of not maing an out.

    Cameron, I have seen your attitude shift over time. This old man’s gonna call you out on something. Chuck & Raul are attached to a macho affect (though calling everyone assholes sounds sour to me), mixed in with much else/better stuff. It sure seems like you have gotten more mean to fit in.

    You said modest stuff about your unprepossessing physical self. Why on eartyh would you call Ellsbury a “little pussy”? Is that necessary to communicate that his HRs seem a fluke?

    Also for everyone: are you suggesting he is using PEDs? Is there a Brady-like change in him? Even Brady had a lucky year to an extent, but it was more than that. Why more than BBIP fortune sweetening a career year for Els?

  350. Cameron Says:

    “A walk is demonstrably most of the value of a hit. We clearly have been talking about the average value. You reciting possibilities of how a single can often mean more does not change what we talked about with Kerry & others a long while ago, & we can measure it-add up all the good things a single can do, they are more than than the value of a walk/you can subtract from working the count & hitting into DPs. So maybe it is 80%, but it is a logical fallacy to just name a bunch of stuff & act like a walk is like a walk is a homeopathic/miniscule benefit.”

    I think the consensus amongst SABR is a walk has 80% the worth of a single, so you’re right on the estimate.

  351. John Says:

    “I think Ian Kinsler is one of the most overrated players in the game.
    He benefits a lot from playing in Texas.”

    He has a 200-point dip in OPS away from whatever you call Rangers Park.

    So yeah, there’s a gentleman who needs his park.

  352. Cameron Says:

    And I’m fully willing to think Ellsbury is just having one of those years where he’s dialed in and is having that year where things just click. I’ve seen plenty of guys have career years clean. Our entire outfield is having one this season.

    As for my opinion on Ellsbury, the guy’s a walking DL stint with absolutely no history of hitting anything other than singles on a frequent basis. He breaks his ribs diving for balls, something I haven’t seen any other outfielder do because they actually have muscle on their ribcages. He’s a scrawny little guy.

    As for calling him a little pussy? I dunno, I think it’s because I haven’t insulted anyone in a while and I’ve got a blue streak a mile long that needs to be released.

  353. Cameron Says:

    “He has a 200-point dip in OPS away from whatever you call Rangers Park.”

    Rangers Ballpark in Arlington. I like it. Great atmosphere, great look, and one of the few ballparks without its naming rights being owned by a corporation.

  354. Cameron Says:

    By the way, what’s the name of Miami’s new park. Does anyone know?

  355. Chuck Says:

    “Not all folks who played at a high level believe as you do Chuck”

    Like you would know.

  356. Cameron Says:

    For the record, Billy Beane played at a higher level than you did Chuck. Mike has a point.

  357. John Says:

    @354, The Fucking Circus?

  358. Chuck Says:

    “By the way, what’s the name of Miami’s new park. Does anyone know?”

    Cocaine Cartel Stadium.

  359. Chuck Says:

    #356″

    What the hell does what Mike’s comment have to do with Billy Beane?

  360. Cameron Says:

    I just checked. Right now it’s just being called the Miami Ballpark. Expect a corporate naming rights auction to boost team revenue.

    Though I think we should call it Ozzie Guillen Stadium for their massive boner for the guy.

  361. Cameron Says:

    He said that guys who played at a higher level don’t all think like you did. You argued that saying how would he know, I gave Mike some evidence by naming someone who played at a higher level than you and thinks differently than you.

    Of course, he might think that getting on base is the most important thing you can do because he couldn’t hit.

  362. Mike Felber Says:

    Even if you somehow thought you knew what I knew based upon who I met & have talked to-7 you have no reason to know-just on baseball sites there are many folks who believe many things from all levels of life & baseball experience. That is pretty Elementary.

    I knew how you felt about Ellsbury Cam, other than answering me if you think he is using PEDs. Separate is whether you wanna leverage anger into a personal attack. I encourage folks not to go to the dark side. A long while back it was thought that expressing anger blew off steam, released it. That can only be said for talking about it. Indulging anger (not just explosive, but belittling, cold contempt), caused more of the same.

    We become how we act & think.

    Fangraphs WAR rates Ellsbury MVP. I know that will give some here fits, & I continue to agitate for more debate between different systems. Too much variation in many questions, for position players usually defense, pitchers it is that FG uses FIP insstead of adjusted for defense ERA + as its ratings base.

  363. Cameron Says:

    Not anger really, but before this year, Ells had less power than Brett Gardner and was a bigger injury risk than JD Drew. What else do you call someone who’s so physically un-gifted?

    …Besides me.

  364. brautigan Says:

    A ball player.

  365. Cameron Says:

    A very scrawny one, but yeah. Doesn’t have a head for defending on him, but the legs to make up for it. He’s a good player, but he’s the new David Eckstein in terms of physique.

  366. Lefty33 Says:

    “Ozzie knows how to get the best out of the players who can handle him and he’s a hell of a motivator.”

    Sort of but not really.

    Ozzie’s problem is that he’s a one trick pony.

    In today’s game, like it or not, the piss and vinegar apporach only works for a short time, if at all, and only works on a younger team.

    Guys like Pinella, Bowa, and even Guillen in Chicago all had early success and then as their teams got older and as their schtick got old the teams all stopped responding to the constant noise.

    When you think of the more consistently successful managers over the last 10-15 years most of them have not been of the screaming sound-byte variety.

    Charlie Manuel, Ron Gardenhire, Terry Francona, Mike Scioscia, Joe Torre.

    Guillen will be good there for maybe 3-5 years until the players tune him out like they did in Chicago and Loria gets fed up with Ozzie bitch slapping him in the Miami Herald for not spending on payroll when the Marlins don’t win a WS right out of the gate.

  367. Lefty33 Says:

    “What MLB needs is an NBA draft.

    This is where you’re picked…this is your contract.

    Take it or go drive a fucking cab somewhere.”

    Supposedly according to Joel Sherman that is one of the sticking points to the CBA being finished now.

    Everything is rumored to be done with the exception of a draft slotting system and the Astros moving to the AL to create two 15 team leagues.

  368. Mike Felber Says:

    I was well aware of the 80% Cam, thanks. But you are much too smart to be so disingenuous on the “little pussy” comment, & I am much too pedantic not to point this out. Your phrase does not mean fragile. It means weak overall, cowardly, & drips with contempt for someone’s character. In fact if he can perform so well despite being scrawny & being injury prone, it might well be an endorsement for his toughness.

    There have been some skinny & brittle looking guys that excel even in a modern sprt where they tend towards the strapping powerhouses in modern days. Same Cassell. Reggie Smith. Allen Iverson. To an extent Kevin Garnett.

    Ivy had his personality & maturity problems, but he was tough as nails against guys who dwarfed him.

  369. Cameron Says:

    The White Sox have traded Ozzie Guillen to the Marlins for Osvaldo Martinez and minor league pitcher who hasn’t been named.

  370. John Says:

    Time for CrazyBall!

    The Marlins should let Guillen manage the last game of the year. That would be sick.

  371. Cameron Says:

    He’s expected to take over on Thursday, no games left. You know, unless the rest of the division engages in simultaneous plane crashes.

  372. Raul Says:

    2011 will be a first in the National League: Either the Mets will have their first Batting Champion in Jose Reyes, or the Brewers will have theirs in Ryan Braun.

    In the American League, Miguel Cabrera will take the title easily, ensuring that the AL Central has produced the Batting Champion for the 7th consecutive year.

  373. Cameron Says:

    The AL Central has a habit of producing a lot of things in the past decade or so. Cy Young Winners (5), Batting Champs (7), and mediocre teams (too many to count).

  374. Chuck Says:

    So, guess who believes Kila Ka’aihue has value?

  375. John Says:

    @372, Josh Hamilton won it last year, right?

  376. Raul Says:

    Si @ John

    Billy Beane @ Chuck.

  377. Raul Says:

    My mistake, Texas is in the West.

  378. Cameron Says:

    “So, guess who believes Kila Ka’aihue has value?”

    I do? Not much, but from a guy I’ve been keeping track of since his Omaha days, I’ve seen what he can do. Granted, he’s not that good… But I’ll take him over James Loney, and Loney makes like five million.

  379. Bob Says:

    @ 374.
    The A’s and Billy Beane

  380. Cameron Says:

    I’ve been telling you guys since last year he’d end up in Oakland. He’s Beane’s type of guy. One-dimensional (slugging) and cheap. He probably won’t knock Barton off the first base spot, but he could muscle innings at first and DH and be decent bench pop.

  381. Cameron Says:

    Does anyone know what AJ Hinch is doing right now? I remember he’s Arizona’s biggest yes-man, so he’s probably still there.

  382. Bob Says:

    I believe Jed Hoyer hired him with the Padres.

  383. Cameron Says:

    Yep, just checked. Executive VP of Scouting. Not a bad job for a guy who’s 37.

    However, Hoyer’s also 37 and he was acting GM of Boston (along with 3 other execs) in ‘05 and has been a GM in San Diego for 3 years.

    …Fucking asshat, living my dream.

  384. Cameron Says:

    Just took a look at Ethan Hollingsworth, the guy we acquired from Oakland for Kila.

    …I can’t find anything to like about him. A reliever with average stuff and bad numbers who’s struggling to stand out in Triple A.

    However, I expected as much because Dayton Moore is good many things. Trades are not one of them.

  385. Raul Says:

    Albert Pujols is batting .301
    Jose Bautista is batting .302

    The race continues.

    KC Catcher, Salvador Perez is hitting .384 in September.

    Michael Bourn was hitting .303/.363/.403 in Houston.
    Since being traded to Atlanta he’s hitting .274/.315/.353.

  386. Cameron Says:

    Huh… Didn’t notice the dropoff in Bourn’s offense really. The only leaderboard you see him on is the SB, which he’s leading by 18.

    However, they didn’t pick him up for the bat.

  387. Cameron Says:

    My bad, he’s leading by 10 in the ML, 18 in the NL. Sometimes the leaderboards on mlb.com default to the NL for me.

  388. Chuck Says:

    “He probably won’t knock Barton off the first base spot”

    Considering Barton spent most of the season in the minors, you better hope not.

  389. Cameron Says:

    That or being injured. If not Barton, then his main competition at first is Chris Carter. If Carter gets it together, he’s gonna leave Kila riding the pine. He’s pretty much stuck at first for a while. He won’t go back to the outfield with the two Michaels (Choice and Taylor) coming up.

  390. Dugout Central » Blog Archive » Verlander Named MVP – Sadly, As I Expected Says:

    [...] This is from my Michael Young MVP article from September 22nd. You can read that article in it’s entirity here : http://www.dugoutcentral.com/?p=2236 [...]

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