NLDS Game 4, Brewers vs. Diamondbacks: Similar Starters

by JohnBowen

Tonight, the Arizona Diamondbacks will fight to take the National League Division Series back to Milwaukee, following a dominating 8-1 route against the Brew Crew at Chase Field on Tuesday night. The Brewers – who beat the Diamondbacks on Saturday and Sunday at Miller Park – have different aspirations.

Perhaps the most interesting tidbit is the comparison between Brewers scheduled starter Randy Wolf and Diamondbacks scheduled starter Joe Saunders.

Both gentlemen are southpaws who feature a fastball in the high ‘80’s – low ‘90’s, though Saunders throws his more often (64% of the time – something the fastball-happy Brewers should keep in mind). Saunders next most-often used pitch is his change-up, whereas Randy Wolf likes to go to his breaking pitches (roughly 38% of the time, split about evenly between slider and curveball). It’s the results that those pitches garner that are most interesting:

Each pitcher made 33 starts, with Wolf recording exactly one out more than his counterpart. They sport identical 3.69 ERA’s. They both pitch heavily to contact, allowing roughly the same number of hits (Wolf: 214, Saunders: 210), and walks (Wolf: 66, Saunders: 65). Neither pitcher racked up an especially high number of strikeouts, though Wolf had an edge of just over one strikeout per nine innings.

On the face, both Wolf and Saunders appear to be solid, above-average, inning-eating hurlers – which exactly what division winners expect out of their fourth starters. Digging deeper, we find that another thing that these two pitchers share is that, according to peripheral statistics (based on line drive rates, GB/FO ratio, strikeouts), neither pitcher should be as good as they’ve been this season. And indeed, both gentlemen have had better seasons than their career norms. Saunders has an xFIP (expected fielding-independent percentage) of 4.38, while Wolf comes in at 4.47. While their ERA’s are just above average (and their WHIP’s are roughly average), these xFIP values rank 45th and 47th among the 50 National League qualifiers.

Anecdotally, Wolf did seem to benefit from some lucky breaks. An example of this is his very best start (on paper) of the year – August 15 against the Los Angeles Dodgers at Miller Park. Wolf went 8 innings, and gave up 0 runs while throwing just 101 pitches. Looks pretty great right? Except that Wolf was bailed out by his (generally, rather poor) defense. In the second inning of that game, Wolf had surrendered two base runners without recording an out before giving up an absolute smash to James Loney. Brewers second baseman Josh Wilson snagged the would-be base-hit and led off a double play – which turned into a triple play when Prince Fielder gunned down a greedy Matt Kemp, who was trying to go from second to home on the play. Over the next two innings, he would receive defensive help from center fielder Jerry Hairston Jr., who provided an outfield assist at the plate and a spectacular catch-double play on what should have been a gap-double.

This is just one start, but it stands to reason that Wolf should have given up as many as 5 runs in those three innings and been relieved, but ended up getting 8 scoreless frames (which, by itself was the difference of a 3.69 ERA and a 4.00 ERA).

Does this mean anything for tonight? Probably not; it’s just a single game, after all and regression is a long-term tool. If Joe Saunders pitches a complete game shutout and brings the series back to Milwaukee, he doesn’t prove anything any more than he would by getting shelled. Fans of both teams should be aware that neither of these gentlemen were as good as they appeared in 201l and might not repeat their raw numbers in 2012 – but beyond that, it’s just fun to look at the eerie similarities between two pitchers in a high-stakes game.

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618 Responses to “NLDS Game 4, Brewers vs. Diamondbacks: Similar Starters”

  1. Chuck Says:

    Introducing the first NL team to blow a 2-0 lead in a five game series.

    Yes, ladies, your 2011 Milwaukee Brewers.

  2. Cameron Says:

    We’ve got three Game 5s coming up. …I’m loving this season.

  3. Cameron Says:

    You know, I’m kind of ashamed to be a wrestling fan. One of the biggest companies in the world is hosting a headline match for their next PPV as Hulk Hogan vs. Sting. …In 2011. There’s nostalgia and then there’s watching two guys old enough to be grandpa fake fighting.

  4. Raul Says:

    Time for the creepy comment of the day:

    After baseball, Doug Fister should have a seamless transition into the adult entertainment industry.

    Fister, and Randy Johnson.

  5. Raul Says:

    Who is going to be the hero tonight in Game 5 of the Yankees/Tigers series?

  6. Chuck Says:

    Jeter..just to piss you off…:)

  7. Raul Says:

    LOL

    Chuck, I have to say I’ve really mellowed on my dislike of Derek Jeter.
    After thinking about it, I’ve decided that it’s really not Derek Jeter that I have a problem with. It’s a lot of his fans. But that’s not his fault.

    He is a great player. A Hall of Fame player. He’s never in trouble. He’s generally a good guy and works hard.

    I didn’t like how the A-Rod situation played out from 2000-2006 or so but that’s really not a reason to hate a guy.

    It would be fitting for him to have another great moment in a big game.

  8. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think Fister should star in films, but he could run a nice nightclub. Mister Fister’s.

  9. Cameron Says:

    I’m calling the Tigers tonight and it’s gonna be because of Miggy Cabrera.

  10. Raul Says:

    Unless the same jerk who called for a 1st pitch fastball to Delmon Young the other night is still employed by the Yankees, I expect to see a steady stream of unhittable crap to Miguel Cabrera all night.

  11. Cameron Says:

    Unless they intentionally walk Miggy every time he comes to the plate, he’ll find something to hit.

  12. Raul Says:

    Before John comes in here and warns me of the dangers of giving a player a 1.000 OBP, let me say that I’m fully aware it’s not a smart thing to do all the time.

    But I’m going to force the other Tigers to beat me. Not saying Miggy takes intentional walks…more like…very careful pitching.

    Shoeless Joe Jackson: The first two were high and tight, so where do you think the next one’s gonna be?
    Archie Graham: Well, either low and away, or in my ear.
    Shoeless Joe Jackson: He’s not gonna wanna load the bases, so look low and away.
    Archie Graham: Right.
    Shoeless Joe Jackson: But watch out for in your ear.

  13. Cameron Says:

    Right. Just saying Miguel’s been on a mission this season to beat the fuck out of any ball he can find. You hang anything near the plate, and he’s gonna hit it.

  14. Raul Says:

    Cabrera might never win an MVP.

  15. John Says:

    Didn’t Miggy Cabrera once smack a double on an intentional ball?

  16. Cameron Says:

    Pretty sure I’ve seen Billy Butler smack a free pass out of the park before, so I wouldn’t be surprised.

  17. Raul Says:

    Someone hit a home run on an intentional walk attempt.

    I’m sure a few guys have, actually.

    And if I had to place a bet, I’d go with Vladimir Guerrero.

  18. Bob Says:

    Robin Ventura is the new skipper for the Sox… The White ones of course.

  19. Cameron Says:

    Robin Ventura. Didn’t even know he was a candidate, but that guy was a huge part of that team. Good for him.

  20. Raul Says:

    I guess the Sox take care of their own.

    Something that cannot be said for the Cubs, eh Sandberg?

  21. Cameron Says:

    On ex-Sox to another, they really take care of their own. Go south side.

  22. Cameron Says:

    Alright y’all, game time!

  23. Cameron Says:

    And Tigers utility man Don Kelly goes yard… And then so does Delmon Young, on a first-pitch fastball.

  24. Cameron Says:

    My bad. First pitch slider that DIDN’T move.

  25. Cameron Says:

    If you throw a slider that doesn’t break, should it still be allowed to be called a slider?

  26. Chuck Says:

    “If you throw a slider that doesn’t break, should it still be allowed to be called a slider?”

    You do all the time, so why not?

  27. Chuck Says:

    “Who is going to be the hero tonight in Game 5 of the Yankees/Tigers series?”

    MLB.com had a user survey today and I said Phil Hughes.

    Just sayin…

  28. Chuck Says:

    Girardi’s a fucking idiot.

    That’s a compliment.

  29. Raul Says:

    Sorry, I’m busy with some stuff and can’t watch the game.
    But I’m checking the box score.

    Why the hell is everyone going 1 inning for the yankees?

  30. Chuck Says:

    I’ve never seen anything like this.

    I’m dumbfounded.

    Twitter’s crashed twice in the last hour.

    Just mindboggling what Girardi’s doing.

  31. John Says:

    Nova came out because of tightness, apparently…

  32. Cameron Says:

    Forearm tightness.

  33. Chuck Says:

    The only thing that’s tight right now is Girardi’s ass.

    And getting tighter by the second.

    Doesn’t explain Hughes pitching an inning and two thirds does it?

    Or Boone Logan pitching in the fourth inning?

    Yankee PR staff trying to save Girardi’s ass.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Fuck me.

  34. Raul Says:

    Wow.

    I can’t even believe what is happening.

  35. Cameron Says:

    They just pulled CC to throw in Raffy Soriano.

  36. John Says:

    Louisiana Lightning is getting loose in the pen…

  37. Raul Says:

    Seriously.

    This is a joke, right? He’s trying to get himself fired so he can take the Cubs job.

    Please tell me that’s what he’s doing.

  38. Cameron Says:

    If Theo Epstein hires Joe Girardi to manage the Chicago Cubs, will we see the perfect trifecta of dumbass?

  39. Chuck Says:

    LOL Raul…

  40. John Says:

    Compare what Theo has done to what Hendry did for about three seconds.

  41. Cameron Says:

    True, but I wanted to make the joke.

  42. Chuck Says:

    I want Theo to go to Baltimore.

    Let’s see how fucking smart he is with seventy million.

  43. John Says:

    That’s fair.

    I mean this season is on him. I have no problem with that. He’s the guy in charge, and regardless of injury-probability, it’s his responsibility.

    But Hendry, Minaya, Colleti were all given huge payrolls in easier divisions and were way way worse.

  44. Cameron Says:

    He’s had some fairly decent drafts and trades… But the guy’s gonna be 2/3 of what he was without the FA money.

  45. John Says:

    …not 2011, just in general.

  46. Chuck Says:

    The Nova injury story is a fabrication by the Yanks PR staff to protect Girardi in postgame presser if Yanks lose.

  47. Cameron Says:

    Tune in to watch the Tigers face the Rangers, folks!

  48. Cameron Says:

    ‘Nother thing I noticed… Delmon Young’s gettin’ fat.

  49. Cameron Says:

    The Yankees ace is CC leaves is gonna be Ivan Nova.

    …Cashman. Sign EVERYONE YOU CAN!

  50. JohnBowen Says:

    Hey, worked this year. Colon and Garcia combined for 51 starts and an ERA of around 3.80ish.

    Without those scrap-heap pickups, the Yankees are probably in third place, watching the Red Sox get beat-down by the Tigers instead.

    Still, I think the Yankees are conceding the foreseeable future if they don’t bring CC back.

  51. JohnBowen Says:

    “The Nova injury story is a fabrication by the Yanks PR staff to protect Girardi in postgame presser if Yanks lose.”

    Who cares about facts and “hanging sliders” and stuff. Let’s just make shit up.

    Hey, ARod probably struck out in that last at-bat because his mother is being held hostage by the mob.

  52. JohnBowen Says:

    So, even after this dreadful post-season, who do you think has a higher career post-season OPS…ARod or Jeter?

    Hint: It’s ARod.

    Not a hint, just an answer.

  53. Raul Says:

    Alex Rodriguez
    Mark Teixeira
    Nick Swisher

    That’s why the Yankees were eliminated.

    As much as people will credit the Tigers (and they deserve credit), the real story is how New York failed. Not so much that the Tigers beat them.

    If those 3 batters hit .250 for the series, New York runs away in a laugher.
    Even with the shitty pitching strategy that somehow allowed Delmon Young to hit 3 homers.

  54. Cameron Says:

    Nova wasn’t throwing sliders, John. Those were just really slow fastballs.

  55. JohnBowen Says:

    “Nova wasn’t throwing sliders, John. Those were just really slow fastballs.”

    What was he trying to throw?
    And what was the result.

  56. Raul Says:

    How much does a 200 million dollar payroll team need to fail before they take over the Brooklyn Dodgers’ moniker as “Dem Bums”?

  57. JohnBowen Says:

    @53, it was an upset, pure and simple.

    Guys have stretches of 5 games where they suck all the time.

    “If those 3 batters hit .250 for the series, New York runs away in a laugher.”

    Miggy Cabrera hit .200.
    Victor Martinez hit .222.
    Alex Avila hit .063.
    Jhonny Peralta hit .222

    It’s easy to say, “well hey, all we needed was for some of our best guys to come through,” but the four best hitters in Detroit’s order also did poorly in the series.

  58. JohnBowen Says:

    @56, this is why people hate Yankee Fans.

    YOU WON TWO FUCKING YEARS AGOO!!!!!!!!JfdjisoP HTI32Q

    Sorry. Seizure. I was just reminded that my team hasn’t won a single post-season series in 29 years and we’re staring elimination in the face tomorrow against a Cy Young candidate. Solid!

  59. JohnBowen Says:

    Also, how bummed were the TBS announcers after the Tigers won?

    It’s like the announcers were like “FUCK this isn’t the storyline that we were gonna play “Written in the Stars” to!!”

  60. Raul Says:

    You’re a Brewers fan.
    If you win once a century you should be thrilled.

    Don’t sit there and talk about Yankees arrogance and expectations when you know damn well you’ll turn around and throw the Yankees payroll in their faces when comparing them to the Tampa Bay Rays.

  61. JohnBowen Says:

    I don’t blame the Yankees one bit for spending 200M to field the best team that they can. I don’t even blame them for overspending on some/most players because that’s how you secure contracts.

    Certain things (bidding against themselves for ARod, throwing 50M at Jeter etc) aren’t the wisest things, but on the whole, it’s a very well-run organization.

    It’s not like they don’t have the results. While playing in what’s usually the toughest division in baseball, they’ve won 5 world series, 7 pennants and made the playoffs 16 times in 17 seasons since the new format arrived.

    They’re held to a different standard because of the payroll, but the main test is the regular season, and they’ve passed that test consistently. Lower payroll teams (A’s, Rays) are held to a completely different standard (i.e., compare them to the Royals, Pirates).

    And compared to other big-time payroll teams, the Yankees are still phenomenal.

    The Mets were riding 120-150 million dollar payrolls for most of the last decade, while playing in the same market and weaker division, and they have *one* playoff appearance to show for it since 2001, and 3 overall in the current system.

    The Cubs have regularly rolled in with big pocketbooks in an even weaker division, where they outspend their rivals by 50%, and they’re still looking at just 4 playoff appearances in the current system.

    This year, the Yankees led the AL in wins while playing in a division with two other 90-win teams. They were the best team; they lost in a 5-game series where they out-scored their opponent. These things happen, and it’s not management’s fault (er, upper management. Girardi was doing some weird shit tonight).

  62. Chuck Says:

    “Who cares about facts and “hanging sliders” and stuff. Let’s just make shit up.”

    Right John.

    Sorry.

    I forgot you follow Buster Olney and Ken Tremendous on Twitter.

    My bad.

  63. Cameron Says:

    True. While I do give the Yankees crap for the payroll (slight bit of hypocrisy as I love the Yankees more than any team except my boys in blue), it’s still farily well-run to produce results on the field, better than teams with comparable payrolls.

    They don’t draft that well and their prospects kinda suck, but the major league team is great. They also have some of the best international scouts in the game. They regularly clean house during IFA season.

  64. JohnBowen Says:

    LOL, and who do you follow? Joe?

    “RBIs ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER”

    You know how I know when people haven’t played the game (at least played it right?)

    If they think RBI’s are an individual effort.

    Fucking moron.

    Chuck, do you have one shred of evidence….seriously, anything at all – to suggest that Nova wasn’t experiencing tightness? He gave up two jacks (to two gentlemen who have COMBINED for 19 all year) and by any measure, should have given up another run in the 2nd (Jhonny Peralta smashed a ball with Maggs on third, just right where ARod was).

    His shit wasn’t breaking, and there were results to show it.

    Why should Girardi save the pen? If Nova can’t get the job done, it’s not like you have time to wait for him to figure his shit out. IT WAS GAME FIVE

    The relievers combined to give up exactly 1 run in 7 innings.

    Even if Nova were fine, you still expect him to give up more than that if he stays in the game.

    Girardi’s over-managing didn’t cost the Yankees the game. Sorry bud. You all just couldn’t come through at the plate.

  65. Raul Says:

    I’m pretty sure Chuck’s problem with Girardi was in starting Sabathia against Verlander.

    I admit, I questioned it too.

  66. Cameron Says:

    Started him in game 4 and used him in relief in game 5. When was he gonna start next if they went on, Game 2? Game 3?

  67. Cameron Says:

    Oh for the love of fuck, the Westboro Baptist Church will picket Steve Jobs’ funeral? WHY!? The fuck did this guy do? Wait, there’s a tweet about this.

    “Westboro will picket his funeral. He had a huge platform; gave God no glory & taught sin. MT @AP Apple co-founder Steve Jobs has died at 56″

    …And it was sent from an iPhone. Sweet mother of Christmas, you try to use Ozzy’s “Crazy Train” as your new theme song despite COMPLETELY missing the point of this song and now I….

    I’ve got the gas to drive down there and I’m pretty sure I know SOMEBODY who knows how to make a bomb.

  68. Raul Says:

    Well,

    Sabathia opts out = 23 million off the books.
    Posada is out = 13 million.
    Soriano opts out = 11 million.
    Swisher has a club option for 10 million or 1M buyout.
    Martin comes off the books = 4 million

    Some of them may be kept, but initially they’re looking at 61 million off the books (at least for the top guys) before re-signing players. That doesn’t include pay increases and arbitration for some guys.

    Swisher may be brought back because FA has nothing in terms of RFers.

    Sabathia might be brough back, though I’m not sure the Yankees should do it — given the commitment necessary in terms of years.

    Mark Buehrle is going to be an interesting name this winter, for sure.

  69. Raul Says:

    lol @ cam

  70. John Says:

    In what universe is Soriano opting out?

  71. Cameron Says:

    In a universe where Soriano doesn’t realize he won’t get half of what he’s getting paid next year if he opts out?

  72. Raul Says:

    It’s hypothetical

  73. Cameron Says:

    I can see that, but at the same time, I don’t think it’s gonna happen. He signed that contract to make money, he’s gonna stay on it to keep the money. Guy has a season that bad, he’s latching onto that contract for dear life.

    Martin will probably be back, too. Guy had a good season at the plate and he’s still one of the best with the glove. I don’t think they’re comfortable giving Montero full-time plate work yet.

    Swisher will probably be back because, like you said, best option.

    CC is still a coin flip for me. He will opt out, but the Yankees might pull a second A-Rod here and bid against themselves.

  74. Raul Says:

    In last year’s Free Agent class, the clear winners to me were:

    Philadelphia for Cliff Lee
    St. Louis for Lance Berkman
    Baltimore for JJ Hardy
    Texas for Adrian Beltre

  75. Raul Says:

    The scary thing about Sabathia is that should he be serious about leaving and goes to a team like the Angels…that completely shifts the balance of power because a team with Sabathia, Haren and Weaver is not going to lose.

  76. Chuck Says:

    I have no more evidence he didn’t have tightness than you do that he did.

    Just because it worked out doesn’t make it right, John.

    That was the dumbest seven innings of managing I’ve ever seen, and if you don’t think so I really don’t care about your opinion of RBI’s.

  77. JohnBowen Says:

    “I have no more evidence he didn’t have tightness than you do that he did.”

    Well, his manager said so, and he was sucking.

    Seriously, what would you have done?

    Left Nova in and lost 8-2 instead of 3-2?

    BRILLIANT!

  78. Cameron Says:

    I agree with Girardi in principle. If your starter’s knocked out, you should use your bullpen to staunch the bleeding.

    …However, you don’t go to your starters first because you kinda need those if you do win the game.

  79. Raul Says:

    Why are you focusing on Nova and not on the other 5 or 6 guys that went 1 inning?

  80. Cameron Says:

    Colon wasn’t starting in the postseason rotation, Burnett was a spot starter, Cory Wade had a good year, and you had some decent enough rookies like Noesi sitting in that pen.

    Why CC? Hell, why even Hughes? He’s a better spot starter than AJ Burnett!

  81. Raul Says:

    I’m shocked at how well Brett Gardner played. Kudos to him.

  82. Cameron Says:

    That was impressive. He batted close to .500 for the series.

  83. Raul Says:

    Some eye-opening things from when Francona left the Red Sox.

    Apparently there were a number of clubhouse and attitude problems.

  84. Raul Says:

    By the way,

    In what could add be like twisting the knife in the Yankees’ guts, Ian Kennedy has a chance to propel his team to the NLCS tonight.

  85. Raul Says:

    *minus the “add”

  86. Cameron Says:

    Really? A team where your third baseman constantly bitches out your center fielder, your first baseman has the balls to blame the collapse on god and not being the worst defense humanly possible down the stretch, your GM is insane, and the only guy who has the balls to admit “Yeah, I had a shit season” was Carl Crawford even though you pack a team with fuckups like JD Drew and John Lackey who couldn’t carry Crawford’s jock this year.

  87. Raul Says:

    lol,

    Cam, it just looks like Francona has had enough, has seen the writing on the wall and said ’screw it’.

    Even if Boston wins the WS next year, Francona had to have decided it wouldn’t be worth it to him.

  88. Chuck Says:

    “Well, his manager said so, and he was sucking”

    So, Girardi called a press conference in the third inning?

    Maybe he sent Verducci a text between innings?

    Christ.

    The pitch to Kelly was a good one, yeah, he hung the slider to Young, but big deal.

  89. Raul Says:

    I’m sure managers never lie to the media about their players.

  90. Cameron Says:

    There wasn’t writing on the wall, there were essays on the wall.

  91. JohnBowen Says:

    Since we’re just wildly speculating, I’m gonna say that the reason ARod went 0-4 is that he was on cocaine.

    Girardi just didn’t mention it because he was protecting his guy.

  92. Cameron Says:

    If Nova’s arm really was tight, that’s cool.

    I would’ve taken him out after the first and said “He gave up two homers and we’re trying to win, simple as that.”

    If it’s game 5, I’ve got a guy warming up after the first pitch to Kelly. I don’t normally advocate abusing the bullpen, but if it’s game 5, I’m putting on my best Captain Hook act out there.

  93. Cameron Says:

    Just curious, no one thinks Delmon Young made up his oblique injury? Personally, I’m not sure. He said he couldn’t complete a practice throw in between innings because his side hurt too much, but I think they jst needed to make ad efensive replacement to keep the lead.

    How can I tell? Delmon ran out to party with his teammates pretty fuckin’ fast.

  94. JohnBowen Says:

    I would’ve just said “I went with a defensive upgrade” and left it it at that.

    Teams do that all the time, not a big deal.

  95. Cameron Says:

    Possibly. I’m not putting too much stock into Young possibly faking it, but he seemed to be in pretty good shape after the game and during his interview. Just speculating.

  96. Raul Says:

    LOL

    John is ridiculous with his hyperbole.

  97. Cameron Says:

    And Girardi’s ridiculous with his bullpen, Nova being hurt a non-issue.

  98. Raul Says:

    John,

    Without Prince Fielder next season, how well do you think they will do?
    Or are you reserving judgment until Albert Pujols signs?

    I understand the balance of power rests on where Pujols goes.

  99. Chuck Says:

    “Girardi just didn’t mention it because he was protecting his guy.”

    Managers do that, not that you would ever know unless it’s programmed into PlayStation at some point.

  100. Raul Says:

    Can someone turn on AM Sports Radio?

    I have a feeling Yankees fans are clamoring for the team to re-sign Sabathia, sign Jose Reyes, move Jeter to RF and get rid of Nick Swisher.

    Hahahahahaha.

  101. Cameron Says:

    May I take an editing pen to that, Raul?

    “I have a feeling Yankees fans are clamoring for the team to re-sign Sabathia, sign Albert Pujols, move Teixeira to RF and get rid of Nick Swisher.”

    Much more likely.

  102. JohnBowen Says:

    “Managers do that, not that you would ever know unless it’s programmed into PlayStation at some point.”

    Chuck, what’s your job in the big leagues?

    Nothing? You’re a chef? Got it.

  103. Cameron Says:

    John, what’s your job in the big leagues? What’s your job history in baseball period?

    Don’t attack credentials when you’ve got less.

  104. Chuck Says:

    “Nothing? You’re a chef? Got it.”

    No, I’m not.

    “John is ridiculous with his hyperbole.”

    Yep.

    “John, what’s your job in the big leagues?”

    Thought so.

  105. JohnBowen Says:

    @98, thing is, if Fielder doesn’t re-sign, that’s still 15.5M that they have to work with.

    I would love to see the Brewers make a play for Reyes. The downgrade from Fielder to Gamel/Green would be easily made up for by the upgrade from Betancourt to Reyes.

    Unfortunately, Milwaukee probably doesn’t have what Reyes is looking for – either in glamour or money.

    That said, 15.5M dollars is a lot of money. I could almost see a play for CJ Wilson? Except that the Yankees are going to over-pay out their asses to get him, rather than hope to strike gold with old unwanted shits like they did this year.

  106. JohnBowen Says:

    Ok, let’s look at what Chuck – a supposed expert – is blaming on the Yankees’ defeat.

    Girardi’s bullpen management.

    Not 0-5 with the bases loaded. Chuck blames the bullpen, which gave up 1 run in 7 innings.

  107. Raul Says:

    I think Chuck owns a restaurant.
    And he scouted in the Eastern League a while back. And I think a short time ago he was a scout in the Rangers organization…or Mariners.

    And he’s a nutritionist for like 30 years.

    I might be wrong though.

  108. Raul Says:

    @ John 105

    Jose Reyes would be a fantastic pick up for you guys.

  109. Raul Says:

    I think Chuck’s also in some Minor League club/HOF or something as a contributor/supporter.

    Not sure.

  110. Cameron Says:

    I think he’s also coached and managed at several levels of baseball. He was part of the minor leagues for something, but I don’t know what.

    And John, just because the bullpen only gave up one run in 7 innings, they had to use five guys to do it and one of them was their ace, who probably should’ve been saved for Game 1 of the ALCS, and they got their supposed “setup man” out in the sixth.

    Run through the scrubs first. You could’ve thrown out Wade and Noesi for four innings and gotten the same damn results.

  111. JohnBowen Says:

    Yeah, Chuck’s kind of a nebulous figure.

    He coached one of the best defensive catchers I’ve ever seen, so I’ll give him that.

    But come on. Seriously. The Bullpen. Wasn’t the issue last night.

  112. JohnBowen Says:

    “they had to use five guys to do it and one of them was their ace, who probably should’ve been saved for Game 1 of the ALCS”

    WHAT GAME ONE OF THE ALCS?!

    You have to win to get there. No point in saving guys for a series that might never happen.

  113. Cameron Says:

    I think Milwaukee will be the most aggressive push for Reyes depending on whether or not Prince comes back, but not his most likely destination.

    I think the most likely thing for Reyes is… Jhonny Peralta has one more year left on his contract, so he moves back to third base as a stopgap for Nick Castellanos and Peralta anchors the middle infield. Mets won’t keep him because they’ll want to fully focus on rebuilding. Alderson can see Atlanta and Philly are on top and Washington and Florida are on the upswing, he’s gonna quit while he’s ahead and not sink money into a team that won’t compete.

  114. Cameron Says:

    Detroit was saving Verlander for Game 1, John. They knew that they needed to win the game, too, but they weren’t gonna get out on the wrong foot if they did win.

  115. Chuck Says:

    Hey, asshole.

    I’m not blaming the bullpen.

    I’m just saying Girardi did a lousy job yesterday.

  116. JohnBowen Says:

    Exactly.

    The Mets finished FOURTH this year. With Reyes having a career year (at least while healthy).

    Let him go, take the draft picks. This is a no-brainer.

  117. JohnBowen Says:

    “Detroit was saving Verlander for Game 1, John. They knew that they needed to win the game, too, but they weren’t gonna get out on the wrong foot if they did win.”

    For shit’s sake.

    If Jeffrey Maier had bought a ticket for yesterday’s game, we’d be hearing about how Leyland was an idiot for saving Verlander for a game that never happened.

    “I’m just saying Girardi did a lousy job yesterday.”

    Doesn’t Girardi know he has to will ARod to hit better?!

  118. Cameron Says:

    Hughes didn’t give up a run while he was out there. Why did he need to be taken out?

    Logan didn’t give up a run while he was out there. Why did he need to be taken out?

    Soriano didn’t give up a run while he was out there. Why did he need to be taken out?

    Robertson didn’t give up a run while he was out there. Why did he need to be taken out?

    If it seems like I’m asking the same question a lot, it’s because I was when I was watching that game.

  119. Chuck Says:

    Look at the pitcher of Danny Hultzen on the AFL home page.

    I had to take two Tylenol just looking at it.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/afl/index.jsp

  120. Cameron Says:

    Look John, I agree the reason the Yankees lost was because Nova hung two really bad pitches that fucked the Yanks.

    …But for God’s sake, you don’t need to run every arm you have on the team to stop the bleeding. That’s just wasting arms.

  121. JohnBowen Says:

    Well, 3 of those guys are 1-inning relievers.

    The other one had a 5.79 ERA this year when he wasn’t suffering from “dead-arm.”

  122. Cameron Says:

    Wow… Hultzen is an ugly motherfucker.

  123. JohnBowen Says:

    “That’s just wasting arms.”

    That weren’t gonna be used anyway because the Yankee bats came up short.

  124. Cameron Says:

    Just because they’re used for 1 inning doesn’t mean they’re physically incapable of going for two.

    And they had Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia sitting there if they did need to start. Garcia was on four days’ rest and Colon hadn’t made a start period.

  125. Cameron Says:

    If the bats did come up though, Girardi just pissed away half their bullpen for Game 1 and handed Texas a win.

  126. JohnBowen Says:

    Maybe those were the guys they were saving?

    Again. 7 IP. 1 run.

  127. JohnBowen Says:

    “If the bats did come up though, Girardi just pissed away half their bullpen for Game 1 and handed Texas a win.”

    Better than not having a game 1.

  128. Cameron Says:

    True, but they didn’t need to run everyone out there. You could’ve run Bartolo Colon, who wasn’t in the rotation and hadn’t made a start all of the ALDS out there and saved five arms.

  129. JohnBowen Says:

    All those relievers were clearly gonna be good to go by tomorrow.

    They’re relievers. They can handle working on 1-day’s rest. It’s kind of their job.

    You know how they wouldn’t have been available?

    a) By pitching lots of innings
    b) By not being on the team competing in Game 1

  130. Chuck Says:

    So, what happens if the Yanks would have tied the game?

    What was Genius Joe going to do..pull David Cone from the broadcast booth?

    He got lucky, plain and simple.

  131. JohnBowen Says:

    That’s when you go with Bartolo Colon, who, as Cam mentioned, was fresh.

  132. Cameron Says:

    Or you go with Bartolo Colon, who (amazingly) can still go five innings and oh look, those five guys Joe threw out are now all fresh.

  133. John Says:

    How many runs does Bartolo Colon give up per-5 innings?

    Right around 2-3. Probably more like 3 with a good offense.

    It was a must-win game. Why are you guys obsessed with a future that wasn’t necessarily coming?

    Next thing I’ll hear: Girardi should really forfeit the DH and let the pitchers hit for themselves so they’d be ready once they got to the World Series and had to hit on the road.

  134. Cameron Says:

    No, just saying you run Colon out there as long as you can and then hook him when he starts to look bad. Realistically, you probably could’ve gotten about three shutout innings out of him. Enough to buy you time.

  135. John Says:

    Whatever.

    With Nova sucking, and Fister looking sharp, Girardi had to make some calls and they worked.

    Better to be too early than too late.

  136. Chuck Says:

    Danny Hultzen’s first pro inning.

    1-3 groundout

    back to back singles for Christian Colon and Tim Beckham.

    Mike Olt grounds into a 3-6-1 DP

  137. Cameron Says:

    Eh, I think he made some bad calls but got decent results with what he did. In the end though, I think this argument is kinda pointless when the Yanks can’t score runs with the bases loaded.

  138. Raul Says:

    This game is a little bit like Game 7 of the ALCS,

    Except that the Yankees were down 3-0 to the best pitcher on the planet, and Torre went from Clemens to Mussina for 3 innings.

    He wouldn’t have gone to Boone Logan in the 4th.

  139. John Says:

    Who’s the “Mike Mussina” in last night’s scenerio?

    Because Mike Mussina was also one of the best pitchers in the game, and he had had more than 36 hours rest.

    Is Phil Hughes the 2011 version of Mike Mussina?

  140. Raul Says:

    er…2003 ALCS

  141. Raul Says:

    I dunno, John.

    I’m thinking Torre was down 3-0 to Pedro Martinez ni Game 7 and went 3 innings of Clemens to 3 innings of Mussina.

    Girardi went 2 innings of Nova and like 12 pitches each for an hour.

  142. Raul Says:

    It wasn’t similar…I’m saying Torre used the bullpen better than Girardi did. And the situation was more dire in Torre’s case.

  143. John Says:

    But Torre had better options. He was able to hand the ball from one Hall of Famer to another (not looking to start a HOF discussion, let’s call him borderline) Hall of Famer.

    Girardi didn’t have that luxury. You can’t say “hey, why didn’t he just try to get 3 innings out of superstar 77 ERA+ man Phil Hughes?”

  144. Raul Says:

    “But Torre had better options”

    Sigh…

  145. Raul Says:

    Am I the only one who thinks people are acting like Doug Fister is a dominant pitcher?

    It’s Doug Fister.
    Nevermind, yo…

  146. Cameron Says:

    Fister’s a good pitcher, but he wasn’t that sharp last night.

  147. Raul Says:

    It’s DOUG FISTER.

    Facing Cano, Granderson, A-Rod and Teixeira.

    Really? That’s the guy that you’re supposed to fear? Doug Fister?
    He’ll be playing Go Fish on a dirty couch in Fargo next to Jarrod Washburn in a year.

  148. Chuck Says:

    Fister’s one of the few people fortunate enough to live out a wet dream.

  149. Raul Says:

    Evan Longoria turned 26 today.

  150. Cameron Says:

    Let’s go Brew Crew.

  151. Cameron Says:

    In between the ears and the teeth, Ian Kennedy is one goofy-lookin’ kid.

  152. Chuck Says:

    Hence the beard.

  153. Cameron Says:

    Beautiful diving fuck-up by Yuniesky Betancourt there, folks. You don’t see many guys fail with that kind of grace.

  154. Chuck Says:

    Kangaroo Court is going to get Kennedy good..trying to bunt with two outs.

  155. Cameron Says:

    Uh-oh, the D-Backs got a homer. Quick, get Gallardo out and throw every reliever we have at the problem!

  156. Chuck Says:

    Boo-yah!!

  157. John Says:

    Umpire gave Justin Upton an extra strike.

    Ball 3 was bullshit.

  158. Chuck Says:

    He’s at 66 pitches through three.

    He won’t see the sixth inning either way.

  159. Chuck Says:

    Sure, John, blame it on the umpire.

  160. Cameron Says:

    Actually, I agree on the ump making some bullshit calls today.

  161. Chuck Says:

    What, there’s no PitchFX box on the screen?

  162. Cameron Says:

    There is, but the zone on TBS’ pitchFX is so small that everything not down broadway reads as a ball.

  163. Chuck Says:

    Big, big out there.

  164. John Says:

    Great play by Plush.

    Knew he had to go for it with Yuni coming up..

  165. brautigan Says:

    Raul: Re: Doug Fister. Raul, you’re a tall guy. Fister is 6 feet 8. There is something about hitting off of a tall pitcher that is difficult. It must be from the point of release. When I played, I always had trouble off of a tall hurler, regardless of “stuff”. I saw Fister pitch a couple of years ago in the PCL and thought nothing much of him and his “stuff”. It seems he has had more success in the bigs than he did in the high minors, but the fact remains, he has been successful and I personally think it has to do with his height.

    I can think of other tall pitchers that had success, guys like Frank Sullivan, Randy Johnson, C.C. Sabathia, and Chris Young (before his assortment of ailments).

  166. brautigan Says:

    Besides, I think AROD would be sitting on the couch next to him. The ST. Louis squirrel has more relevance now than that clown.

  167. Cameron Says:

    I’m sorry, I know Ian Kennedy was trying to look like a badass staring down the hitter, but his giant ears make me laugh. And his beard ain’t helpin’.

  168. Raul Says:

    I’m sure Fister’s height helps him. Seeing the ball come down from that trajectory likely bothers hitters.

    On the other hand, I give you Mark Hendrickson.

  169. Cameron Says:

    And in a sad bit of news, the city of Milwaukee was lost when the entire city was consumed in a tidal wave of beer in the aftermath of the Brewers’ victory in Game 5.

    The Arizona Diamondbacks will take their place.

  170. Cameron Says:

    And TBS is gonna get fined to shit for that one.

  171. Raul Says:

    Fined for what?

  172. Cameron Says:

    You didn’t hear T-Plush screaming “FUCK YEAH!!!” Twice? The FCC does not take kindly to that. And before you say “they couldn’t have seen that coming, let me remind you that they…

    A) Don’t care
    B) Are run by morons

  173. Raul Says:

    I didn’t watch the game. i was at work

  174. Cameron Says:

    Poor bastard, walk-off single from T-Plush in the 10th inning. It was nuts.

  175. Chuck Says:

    Milwaukee (AP/UPI/DC)

    During an un-aired portion of his post-game presser, Brewers manager Ron Roenicke announced that he, along with the Brewers organization, has filed a lawsuit against the Diamondbacks and specifically manager Kirk Gibson.

    “While we believe the thought process of, and the overall practice of sabermetrics to be a complete load of whale shit, there is enough precedent to show the actions of Mr. Gibson to have added unnecessary time and stress to our game tonight.” Roenicke said. “The fact Mr. Gibson showed and displayed the unmitigated gall to tie the game with a bunt, while totally within the rules and fundamentals of baseball, goes against the retarded stat heads who believe otherwise.”

    Roenicke added, “While we congratulate Mr. Gibson on his certain Manager of the Year Award and the Dbacks franchise for their performance, the bottom line is, as a small market team, we can’t afford unnecessary expenses.”

    Continuing, “Nyjer Morgan’s therapist is paid by the hour, as is the clubhouse caterer, the additional hour of therapy for TPlush and the extra servings for Prince and Casey easily cost us an extra two grand, and as a small market team, while insignificant to the Yankees, is something we just can’t justify.”

    Reached for a comment on his way to the airport, Kirk Gibson issued this comment;

    “Bleep you you bleepin’ loser bleepin’ statheads and your stupid bleepin’ stats, turn off your bleepin’ computers and get your hands out of each other’s pants and watch a bleepin’ game.”

    For more information, go to , or follow John on Twitter.

  176. John Says:

    hey Chuck, how have non-sabr teams been doing?

    What? Terrible? Mariners finished last again? Great.

  177. Raul Says:

    Which teams would you consider “saber teams”?

    I have no knowledge that any team is run with any focus on sabermetrics.

  178. Chuck Says:

    “Which teams would you consider “saber teams”?”

    None.

    There may be some teams who use stats more than others, but to say there is a team run strictly on spreadsheets and numbers, the answer is zero.

  179. Chuck Says:

    “hey Chuck, how have non-sabr teams been doing?”

    Pretty good, considering eight of eight made the playoffs.

    How’s that for an answer, smartass?

  180. John Says:

    Any team that has been playing baseball this week?

    The Rays have been run by Wall Street nerds since 2006 & have been immensely successful.

    Of course, when they finally have a downswing, Chuck will proclaim victory, even while Ned Coletti finishes fourth.

  181. John Says:

    Lol @ the rays being on non-sabr team.

    Or the dbacks, who you’ve criticized for two years.

    Or the Yankees, who employ 20 number crunchers compared to the A’s 1.

  182. Raul Says:

    Are the Tampa Bay Rays owned by Wall Street traders or are they RUN by Wall Street traders?

    Big difference.

  183. Raul Says:

    I mean you’re big on evidence.
    What evidence is there that there’s a team focusing on EQA?

  184. Cameron Says:

    Michael Lewis has a really fascinating way of making the batshit obvious into some revelation.

    Moneyball: Stats are good ways to look at player.
    The Blind Side: Good left tackles prevent QBs from being sacked as much.
    The New Thing: Hey, this Sillicon Valley place is developing a lot of technology.

    …Why are we trying to base a revolution over a guy who moonlights as world-famous superhero Captain Obvious?

  185. Raul Says:

    Chris Carpenter stepped up big tonight

  186. Cameron Says:

    Chris Carpenter also is on standard rest and not short rest. As we’ve seen, Chris Carpenter and short rest don’t mix.

  187. Raul Says:

    I bought Moneyball and The Blind Side.

    Moneyball because of the hype and interest and I wanted to see what it was about.

    The Blind Side because it was recommended to me by a coworker like a year or two before the movie came out. Blind Side is a great story. The part about left tackles in the beginning…I didn’t care for. I have not seen the Blind Side movie…no interest as I read the book.

    The same goes for Moneyball.

  188. John Says:

    Raul,

    “The Extra 2%” is a book about how the team is run by using Wall Street strategies.

  189. Raul Says:

    Why am I the only one that keeps cracking up that Steve Jobs died?
    Is it because I keep thinking of the South Park episode “They took our jobs!!!!” ??

    I think so.

  190. Raul Says:

    Ah, Ok.

    I haven’t heard of that book. I might check it out.

  191. Cameron Says:

    Moneyball and Blind Side both Hollywood the shit out of the stories. You really kinda have to on books like those, but I mean it’s to ridiculous lengths if you ask me.

    Caring midwestern mom taking in a “high schooler” (the guy playing Oher looked like he was 35) is played by Sandra Bullock? …Let’s face it, when you see Bullock you know EXACTLY what you’re in for. Pure Oscar baiting on that one.

    Moneyball is played out like every underdog sports story and they end the movie after the 20th win in Oakland’s win streak. Nothing about how they didn’t win the ALDS, it just sorta peters out. Also, Brad Pitt? …Beane’s not a bad-looking guy, but COME ON! Get someone like Michael C. Hall or Ryan Gosling, someone more believable.

  192. Chuck Says:

    “Or the Yankees, who employ 20 number crunchers compared to the A’s 1.”

    Link?

    Oh, wait, John’s hyperbole, there is no link.

    Just living out his fantasy.

    Shut up.

    By the way, congrats on the Brewers.

    Great game, and well done.

  193. Cameron Says:

    “Why am I the only one that keeps cracking up that Steve Jobs died?
    Is it because I keep thinking of the South Park episode “They took our jobs!!!!” ??

    I think so.”

    I have already made the following jokes. Most of them on the day he died.

    -”Introducing the new iCasket!”
    -”They’re just getting ready to bring in the new model.”
    -”Is the next Steve Jobs just gonna be the same hardware in a new body?”
    -”I bet you five bucks they’re coming out with a memorial iPhone for this.”
    -”He’s not dead, he’s just going up to check on the iCloud.”
    -”See? This is what happens when you don’t read the Terms and Conditions.”
    -”Well, he was an obsolete model.”

  194. Chuck Says:

    Johah Keri is a tool.

    Just saying.

    He might be a good writer, but if you ever saw him in person, you’d slap him just on principle.

    I mean, if you’re a real man, it would be a normal reaction, like checking out the tits on a hottie walking towards you.

    Or in John’s case, seeing if his fly was open.

  195. Cameron Says:

    Oh, got another one inspired by the upcoming Westboro Baptist Church portest of his funeral.

    “GOD HATES MACS!!!”

  196. Chuck Says:

    True or False.

    If Joe Girardi was the Cardinals manager, Chris Carpenter would not have pitched the seventh inning?

  197. Cameron Says:

    He wouldn’t have pitched the sixth.

  198. Chuck Says:

    Email me your address, Cameron.

    You seriously need to get laid.

    I’ll spring for a hooker.

    I mean, seriously.

    Who cares if some bible pushers are picketing Steve Jobs’ funeral.

    I’m concerned you mentioned it once, twice, I’m calling the cops.

  199. Raul Says:

    What’s the difference between Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs jokes?

    Steve Jobs jokes will get old.

    Ok that was wrong.

  200. Cameron Says:

    I only mentioned it as joke material. Nothing is beneath me when it comes to making shit funny.

  201. Raul Says:

    LOL @ Chuck

    “This hummer’s on me”
    (hands Cam $40)

  202. Chuck Says:

    Bible pushers = sabermetricians.

    A collective group of retards who do and say things for attention and to stay relevant.

    All the while the general population rolls their eyes and crosses the street when they see them coming.

    The only difference between the followers of Bill James and the followers of Jim Jones is James hasn’t stirred the extra ingredient into the KoolAid yet.

  203. Raul Says:

    Are the Phillies really going to be eliminated with 2 Cy Young winners and 2 MVPs on their roster?

  204. Cameron Says:

    I like Bill James’ books, actually. Granted, I pay almost no attention to any time he discusses his sabermetric formulas. He’s a great baseball historian and story-teller, though.

    Oh, and a hometown Royals fan.

  205. Cameron Says:

    John Mayberry = Slow, good-hitting infielder.
    John Mayberry Jr. – Speedy outfielder who can’t hit.

    The fuck?

  206. Chuck Says:

    I paid for a hooker once in my life..indirectly.

    At my cousin’s bachelor party, you walked in and paid ten bucks for raffle tickets, if your number got called you went out behind the bar into a van his best man rented.

    It was customized with bed, fridge, TV, the works.

    You got thirty minutes.

    I had a game that night so I showed up about two hours after it started in full uniform.

    Sober as a judge.

    Raul..remember the seventies/eighties uniforms with the elastic waistbands and the double snaps?

    I walk in and my other cousin, the groom’s older brother, hands me a beer and we’re walking towards the head table when I hear my number called.

    I’m there ten fucking minutes.

    So I go outside with this (cough, cough) upstanding citizen, get into the van, and she promptly spends five minutes trying to unsnap my uniform pants.

    I actually had to do it for her.

    She then starts sucking, and after a couple of minutes stops, looks up, and says cumming in her mouth is an extra five bucks.

    OK, whatever, just suck already.

    I finally shoot, and as she’s leaning out the back door of the van spitting, she starts puking her guts out..she’s drunker than shit.

    So I fix my pants, take a twenty off the top of her purse for a refund for such a lousy “job”, and an unopened pack of Newports as a tip.

    For the next four hours, we must have passed each other twenty times walking back and forth at the party and she never even acknowledged me, much less asked me for anything or questioned me if I knew anything.

    That experience proved the old adage; “there ain’t nothin’ worth paying for.”

  207. Chuck Says:

    OK, Raul, here’s where men are men, and stat heads are pussies.

    Does Carpenter start the ninth?

  208. Cameron Says:

    …Awesome.

  209. Raul Says:

    Absolutely.
    And I don’t give a damn if players have seen him 3 times.

  210. Chuck Says:

    Dear Lefty,

    You know I have the utmost respect for you because you played and have been there and done that, and I love you for that.

    But I have one thing to say..

    Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

    Told you so.

    Chuck

    :)

  211. Cameron Says:

    Chris Carpenter celebrates his complete game shutout by Hulking Up and tearing his jersey. Didn’t know he had that many tattoos.

    ALCS – Tigers vs. Rangers
    NLCS – Brewers vs. Cardinals

    Good lord, are we gonna see a 2006 rematch?

  212. Raul Says:

    Hey Chris Carpenter…thanks for not putting blood in your sock.

  213. Cameron Says:

    One Game 5 is a 1-0 pitcher’s duel between two Cy winners and the other Game 5 ends in an extra-innings walk-off. The NL sure knows how to put on a show.

  214. Raul Says:

    The Yankees Tigers Game 5 would have been similar had the NY middle-of-the-lineup hitters done better.

  215. Cameron Says:

    Oh lord… The Cards have a Rally Squirrel.

    You may think it’s cute or funny, but you don’t realize how much of a fucking problem the squirrels are down here. They’re fucking everywhere.

  216. Raul Says:

    If it were up to football players you’d see the Dallas Cowboys with a Rally Stripper.

  217. Cameron Says:

    The difference between a Rally Squirrel and a Rally Stripper is that the Rally Squirrel digs up the shit in backyard and attacks my pets and the Rally Stripper makes my penis happy.

  218. Chuck Says:

    #211

    I’m officially 4-4 on DS series predictions
    #212

    Sorry dude, I may be missing something, but I’m not aware of a bloody sock scenario other than Mickey Rivers in the 1977 ALCS, when he got spiked by UL Washington on a double play turn against the Royals.

  219. Cameron Says:

    The Phillies losing may have been a blessing in disguise for them. On the last out, Ryan Howard suffered an undisclosed injury to his left achilles tendon.

  220. John Says:

    Yup.

    I’ll point out that Philadelphia had a chance to all-but-eliminate the Cardinals from even making the post-season, but lost 3/4, sitting Howard in all three losses.

  221. Cameron Says:

    Achilles injury… Man, that just… If that’s a tear, Philly’s gonna need a new first baseman for 2012.

  222. John Says:

    Oh, I dunno.

    He’s got a full off-season, I think he’ll be good to go, right?

  223. Raul Says:

    Peyton Manning had a fucking year and still is going to miss the season

  224. John Says:

    That was his neck though…

  225. Raul Says:

    I don’t know what was the first team to celebrate a big win with champagne in the clubhouse, but I think it’s really cliche at this point.

    If I was on a Major League team, I’d challenge my teammates to celebrate in our own creative way.

  226. John Says:

    Also, (and I feel ok saying this now), Chris Young’s catch was effing incredible.

    If the DBacks had won that game, people would be talking about that catch in the same way as Mays’s (although Mays had to go like 450 feet to get his ball).

  227. Raul Says:

    Fuck Mays’ catch.

  228. Cameron Says:

    John, do you know how long it takes to rehab Achilles tendon surgery? About a year.

  229. Cameron Says:

    “I don’t know what was the first team to celebrate a big win with champagne in the clubhouse, but I think it’s really cliche at this point.

    If I was on a Major League team, I’d challenge my teammates to celebrate in our own creative way.”

    The Rangers use ginger ale as a sign of respect for Hamilton’s sobriety.

  230. Bob Says:

    Raul, you quoted Vic Wertz, whom I met years ago.

  231. Bob Says:

    For shits and giggles, I Googled the largest markets in the US.

    1. Detroit ( Warren, Livonia) came in at # 12
    2. St. Louis came in at # 18
    3. Milwaukee ( Waukesha-West Allis) came in at 39
    4. Dallas Fort Worth- Arlington is # 4

  232. Bob Says:

    Al Davis passed away. RIP

  233. Cameron Says:

    I know I’m gonna sound like an asshole for this but about goddamn time.

    …Still, RIP Mr. Davis. Without you making the Raiders what they were back in the day, the rivalry wouldn’t be nearly as heated.

  234. brautigan Says:

    1) Willie Mays alleges the ‘54 catch was rather routine. He always felt the toss back to the infield was the more difficult play.

    2) Al Davis was a revolutionary. In 1963, he ran an offense that you see frequently today: A fullback that was used for blocking (and the fullback on that team was the second leading receiver)and a halfback that was a deep threat (Clem Daniels averaged 23 yards on his 30 catches). Oakland was a good franchise back in the day.

  235. brautigan Says:

    That Cardinal-Philly game last night reminded me of 1968. Count me as one who finds more drama in a 1-0 game than about any other sporting event.

    My heart was in my throat when Utley ripped that drive. I thought it was “outta-here”.

  236. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, and he dominated the 80s by taking the fastest guys he could in the draft and just looked to blitz and run. Sadly, he never dropped that strategy and the team’s suffered recently because of it.

  237. Cameron Says:

    Man, kudos to Paul Goldschmidt for shattering expectations. Eighth round pick in 2009, MLB starter by 2011.

  238. Chuck Says:

    Tigers left Delmon Young off the ALCS roster.

  239. Cameron Says:

    Guess his oblique really was hurt, then. Guy tore it up in the ALDS, so it can’t be performance.

  240. Chuck Says:

    Skip Schumacher left off Cardinals NLCS roster also due to strained oblique.

  241. Cameron Says:

    And Howard would’ve been left off the NLCS roster if the Phils made it.

    Also, not sure if Yuni will be left off the Brewers roster or not, but he looks like he hurt himself last game.

  242. John Says:

    Yuni’s fine, he stayed in after the play where he got dinged up (looked like he didn’t realize there were two outs).

  243. Cameron Says:

    Oh dammit.

    …I mean, yay. A fellow human being isn’t seriously injured.

  244. Cameron Says:

    Murphy’s in left, Hamilton’s in center, and Borbon and Gentry are riding the pine.

    Texas is out to win it with the bats here.

  245. John Says:

    1-0 Rangers, on an RBI triple by Murphy.

    Moreland up with a man on third and one out…and fails.

    Infield grass looks weird. Like, field turf.

  246. Raul Says:

    Justin Verlander is the anti-Cliff Lee.

    Watching Cliff Lee, I’ve never seen a pitcher get so many calls.
    Tonight, I’ve never seen Verlander NOT get so many calls.

  247. Cameron Says:

    Talk about some bullshit calls.

    Cliff Lee… I actually approach pitching a lot like him. Walks are death, give up as few as you can. I think in 2009 he gave up like, 4. That’s the kind of numbers I try to pitch for.

  248. John Says:

    After the Cruz HR just now, looks like Verlander talked to the umpire about the strike zone.

    The Rangers were the best fastball hitting club in the majors. You get ahead of them, and they’re mortal. You get behind? Now you have to throw fastballs (against which the Rangers hit like .308 or something).

  249. Cameron Says:

    I love Mike Maddux right now.

    “Well CJ just threw 72 pitches so I think he’s about halfway done.”

  250. John Says:

    No no no…

    Maddux was saying “we usually wait these things out for an out and we’re about halfway there now” (i.e. we’re 30 minutes into the delay).

  251. John Says:

    *wait these things out for an hour.

    Apparently, Verlander’s coming out.

  252. Raul Says:

    Texas – Uno
    Detroit – Cero

  253. John Says:

    “I could throw a CG in Providence, board a Pullman to Boston, and then throw another CG in less time than this contest”

    -Old Hoss Radbourn’s twitter.

  254. Cameron Says:

    Ouch, Ryan Howard has been diagnosed. Ruptured left achilles tendon. They say he’ll need surgery and might not come in until the third month of the season or so.

    For a ruptured achilles? That’s pretty fucking optimistic.

  255. Chuck Says:

    Y’know…

    Ryan Braun is a better all-round player than Prince Fielder.

    I get that Braun got bought out of free agency for a hometown discount and is now unfairly underpaid, but if I’m the Brewers, I’m not bending over backwards to sign Prince.

    Braun is signed through 2020, Fielder won’t even be playing in 2020.

    I’d sign Carlos Pena to a three year, $35 million deal and not regret it for a second.

  256. John Says:

    Agree, disagree, disagree

    Braun is better overall.

    Fielder is the most durable player in baseball.

    Carlos Pena? Save 30m and stick with Gamel.

  257. Chuck Says:

    I love Ron Darling, but if he thinks Holliday hit that hole on purpose, he’s nuts.

    That was a pure jam sandwich.

  258. Cameron Says:

    Pena still has one of the best gloves at first, but the fucker can’t hit the ball in the Friendly Confines. If you can’t hit there, you’re fucked.

  259. Chuck Says:

    “Save 30m and stick with Gamel.”

    What’s with you and Mat Gamel?

    If he could play, he would be.

    Letting Fielder walk is saving more money than signing Pena.

    He was just an off the top suggestion and I’m sure the Brewers could do better, but neither are the point.

  260. John Says:

    Gamel can’t play 3b.

    He can handle first and hit good enough.

    That money can be better spent at more significant upgrades.

  261. Cameron Says:

    Re-sign Fielder, and if you can’t, sign someone like Lyle Overbay as a stopgap.

  262. Chuck Says:

    Killed.

  263. Cameron Says:

    Who hit that last home run? My connection to TBS blacked out.

  264. Chuck Says:

    Bullshit.

    You give a warning in the first inning?

    WTF.

  265. Chuck Says:

    Braun.

    A first pitch fucking bomb to the walkway in leftcenter, above the bleachers.

  266. Cameron Says:

    Thanks Chuck.

  267. Cameron Says:

    See Zack, that’s what you get for being an asshat.

  268. John Says:

    That ball really carried…I didn’t think that had a chance off the bat.

  269. Cameron Says:

    Ryan Braun is giving the Cards a healthy dose of “Fuck your couch” today.

  270. Chuck Says:

    Never a doubt.

    Freese gets a wind and dome aided cheapass homer, and Garcia’s had nothing all game.

    Got to say, though, I can do without Prince’s ghetto, punk ass attitude.

    Cross home plate, high five the guy on deck, and disappear into the dugout.

    Acting like a rapper after a 12 hour coke binge ain’t helpin’ your rep at all.

  271. Cameron Says:

    Yuni just hit a 2 run homer.

    …Yeah, the Cards are fucked if they give a homer up to Yuni.

  272. John Says:

    Zack Greinke got the win today.

    What a fantastic stat.

  273. Cameron Says:

    I think the most important thing is that the Brewers won and I still can harbor my Game 7 Greinke implosion fantasies.

  274. Chuck Says:

    The only chance the Brewers have of winning this series is Greinke.

    Suck it u;p.

  275. John Says:

    “The only chance the Brewers have of winning this series is Greinke.”

    Um, no.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Wrong all the way around.

  276. Cameron Says:

    The way Greinke’s been pitching, him going down would be doing them a favor. Plus, I still harbor an unnatural hatred of him after completely shitting on my team. Same with Johnny Damon, but that wound’s much older.

  277. Chuck Says:

    OK, John.

  278. Cameron Says:

    NLDS Game 2 – 5 IP, 4 ER
    NLCS Game 1 – 6 IP, 6 ER

    Chuck, I think I may actually have seen Greinke pitch more than you have. I don’t know how many times you’ve watched him in the minors, but I’ve watched Greinke for years in KC. The guy has some of the best stuff in the MLB, but when he gets hit he absolutely gets shelled. 2009 was a fluke season.

  279. Cameron Says:

    Time to piss off the old man.

    http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110921/REVIEWS/110929999

  280. Raul Says:

    John @ #256

    “Fielder is the most durable player in baseball.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  281. John Says:

    12.

    That’s the number of games that Prince Fielder has missed since his debut in 2006.

    I want you to think about that.

    12 games. In 6 years.

    Yes, that’s what I would call durable.

  282. Cameron Says:

    Raul, name me one time Fielder’s been hurt.

  283. Raul Says:

    You two are fucking idiots if you really want to point to Prince Fielder as the poster child for durability.

    ESPECIALLY when considering a future contract for that fat tub of shit.

    With you two, there’s not even a fucking need for a 3rd Stooge.

  284. John Says:

    Raul, are you actually denying that Prince Fielder has never once been injured and has missed all of 12 games in 6 years?

    Seriously. He averages 160 games played a year.

    I know he doesn’t “feel” like a ballplayer.

    But guess what? He’s awesome.

    Also, durable, as evidenced by his 160 games played per year.

  285. Cameron Says:

    Do I think he has the potential to get hurt? Yes, hell yes. Do I think he should lose weight? Yeah, hell yeah. Do I feel the need to say the Fielder isn’t durable right now after playing over 150 games a season for five years in a row? …You really need to ask that?

    He’ll probably crash about three years into his next contract. Guys like him don’t hit their 30s well, but he’s good right now.

  286. Cameron Says:

    Best case scenario… He stays at this level until I think… 34. I think he’ll probably see a dropoff at 31 or 32, but he won’t be awful until 34.

  287. John Says:

    Below is a list of players who’ve played more games than Prince Fielder since 2006:

    1.

  288. Cameron Says:

    Counting 2006 or not? having a hard time trying to figure out who it is.

  289. John Says:

    No, I mean there fricken aren’t any.

  290. Cameron Says:

    Then why not say zero?

  291. John Says:

    I was starting a list and came up with no names

  292. Cameron Says:

    Huh, the Marlins are getting a new logo.

    Here it is on the side of a seat in Miami Ballpark. http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIZK3cSLk8kIHeoZMdBKa0kJIWtv9yi1x-4rWvHiJZEG8mWaqL

  293. John Says:

    Have you seen the actual logo?

    http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/9/21/2439933/miami-marlins-logo-official-florida

    Better yet, this is what happens when the Marlins hit HR’s:

    http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/10/7/2474722/miami-marlins-ballpark-home-run-structure-what-is-that-gaaaaaaaaah

  294. Cameron Says:

    The actual logo I’ve seen before.

    That… Thing? I have not. You know, after seeing that, I’m willing to abandon my hopes of seeing a team in Vegas because I realize they’ll try to one-up that.

  295. Raul Says:

    That logo is horrible.

    Brewers need to go back to the MB in the shape of a glove.

    Florida teams have the worst names in sports. Dolphins, Rays, Marlins, Jaguars, Buccaneers.

    Might as well move the franchise to Anchorage and call them the Halibuts.

  296. Raul Says:

    Buster Olney wonders if the Reds should trade Joey Votto.

    Sure.
    If they want to be worse than the Astros.

  297. Cameron Says:

    The Reds said they’ll listen.

  298. Raul Says:

    “The Reds said they’ll listen.”

    Holy fucking shit!
    Really?

    Like how every team listens about every player?
    That’s amazing!

    I know it’s not your words, Cam. But this is a non-story.

  299. Cameron Says:

    True. I sawa link to a story about it, but I honestly didn’t read it because I don’t see the Reds letting go of Votto for less than a king’s ransom. At this point, Alonso’s losing too much of his prospect shine to hinge a future on if they did let go of him.

    The prospects are still good and the other teams are gonna look real thin in a couple of years. If anything, the Reds should extend Votto.

  300. Raul Says:

    If the Reds aren’t going to open their wallets for Joey Votto, they aren’t going to do it for anyone.

    And it would be a clear signal that Cincinnati does not intend to seriously compete in the NL Central.

  301. Cameron Says:

    It’d be a dumbass move for them to let him go I think, however I think i heard Florida has an outside interest and if they were willing to move Sanchez, another decent guy like Morrison, and a couple arms, they might bite and it might not be a half-bad idea.

    The Reds have bats to spare, if a trade could shore up spots like left or the backstop if Mesoraco (who’s probably their starter next season), then it might not be a bad idea, but it is losing a lot.

  302. Cameron Says:

    I know I said it’d be a dumbass move and not half-bad at the same time. Not taking that back, either. It may not be half-bad if it turns out to be a good trade, but it’d be a dumbass move to trade away a proven commodity like Votto.

  303. Chuck Says:

    The Reds could have had Hunter Pence if only they didn’t consider their $30 million LOOGY untouchable, which just goes to show the mentality, or lack thereof, of those in charge of the Reds front office.

    I have a chance to get out from under Chapman’s contract, I’m driving him to the airport myself.

  304. brautigan Says:

    Cincinnati needs to get rid of Bronson Arroyo and Francisco Cordero before they even THINK about moving Votto.

  305. Chuck Says:

    Braut..going to see Phoenix play tomorrow and hope to talk with Grant Green.

    If I drop your name, he won’t punch my lights out, will he? :)

  306. Raul Says:

    The Marlins have Gaby Sanchez, why take on Votto?
    If there’s a spot the Marlins could use help in, it’s pitching depth and SS.

  307. Cameron Says:

    Sanchez would be gone from that place in a trade without a doubt.

  308. Raul Says:

    In a trade for Votto? Probably.
    But Florida doesn’t need him…I mean, not at his cost.

  309. Cameron Says:

    Do they need him? No. Would I see them trying to add a marquee name to try and boost attendance? …It seems Loria’s gone off the deep end, so I think he’ll try.

    Who knows? Pujols might end up in Florida. I think Miami’s still got about 45 million to work with in offseason budgeting.

  310. Chuck Says:

    Pujols isn’t going anywhere.

  311. Raul Says:

    I don’t see Pujols going to play for a guy like Ozzie Guillen. I think consider Ozzie a “player’s manager” but he’s a bit rough.
    But a lineup that has Albert Pujols, Mike Stanton, Matt Dominguez…I mean it would be a better offensive team that what he’s got in St. Louis.
    Thing is, if Florida is going to commit big dollars to a Free Agent, then those pitchers they have are going to want to get paid.

  312. Cameron Says:

    I’m actually not too sure of how Dominguez will play out in the majors. Glove’s still as sharp as ever, but the bat’s taken a bit of a downswing.

  313. Raul Says:

    I agree, Pujols stays.

    Fielder is gone. Though I’m not sure where.
    Everyone says the Cubs and they could use him, but they need pitching — badly.

  314. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 210 – I haven’t been around for the last few days as I just got released from the hospital today.

    OD’d on too much crow. (Burp)

    @ 254 – Howard will be back by late-May or early June.

    The question will be can Mayberry + ? hold down 1B until he returns.

  315. Chuck Says:

    “Howard will be back by late-May or early June.”

    At the absolute earliest.

    Which means Mayberry, et al, will be depended on past June.

    Amaro’s been standing in front of his mirror the last week with a razor at his neck trying to decide if he should take himself out.

    $25 million for a healthy Howard was a bad contract, this is going to be a nightmare now.

  316. Cameron Says:

    At the absolute earliest, but I still doubt his at all. Everyone I’ve seen fall to that kind of injury needs a year to fully rehab it.

  317. Lefty33 Says:

    “At the absolute earliest.”

    I heard two physcians on ESPN radio and they both are of the opinion that first and foremost it depends on how soon the swelling goes down so that they can even operate. They both said it’s not uncommon to have to wait 3-4 weeks before the swelling regresses back to normal.

    After that they were both were of the opinion that he could easily return in May BUT, they both agreed that his production will likely be impacted the whole season either way so the Phillies need to make a decision whether or not to rush him back into the lineup based on who they have manning 1B.

    They also said that the heel bursitis that he has had issues with since last season could have played an impact in this rupture since Achillies injuries like this one in baseball are very rare.

    I’ve heard so many crazy rumors so far as to what might happen:

    A. Mayberry and Gload

    B. Mayberry and Rizzotti

    C. Mayberry and Overbeck

    D. FA Pickup (Cuddyer-type) and Mayberry

    E. Trade + Mayberry

    The only constant is that Mayberry is involved in all scenarios.

  318. Cameron Says:

    Five bucks that Lyle Overbay is their priority pickup.

  319. Lefty33 Says:

    “but I still doubt his at all. Everyone I’ve seen fall to that kind of injury needs a year to fully rehab it.”

    Maybe in the NBA, but not for a MLB first baseman.

    Real life example from someone I talked to about this :

    Kevin Frandsen who this past season played for the AAA IronPigs had the same injury as Howard in 2008. He ruptured it in ST of ‘08 in March and he played in the final game of the same season in September.

    He was out 6 1/2 months.

    Under that timetable Howard well before the AS break.

  320. Lefty33 Says:

    “Five bucks that Lyle Overbay is their priority pickup.”

    That would be awful.

    But he fits the bill of a guy who could fill in and platoon with Mayberry then be sent to the bench once Howard returns.

  321. Cameron Says:

    True, alot of the guys i’ve seen fall to it (NBA, NFL, pro wrestlers) are a lot more physically active than your typical first baseman. Still, it’s a serious injury. You don’t give him enough time to properly rehab it, he’s just gonna hurt it again.

  322. Cameron Says:

    Of course it’s awful Lefty, but he’s the only 1B I can think of that’ll be a platoon player. You really think they’ll go out and pick up a guy like Michael Cuddyer to platoon even though e’s an everyday player, or do you think they’ll pick up a band-aid first baseman on the cheap?

  323. Lefty33 Says:

    I mention Cuddyer because of his multi-position capability.

    He could play 1B, 2B, 3B, and the OF which are all positions the Phillies either have injury issues at or don’t have a solid option at.

    By using him the same way the Twins did he would easily get a full seson of AB’s in Philly next year and beyond.

  324. Cameron Says:

    I dunno. There may be injuries and off-days to account for there, but all those spots are pretty well set in Philly. San Francisco’s expected to make a big push and I completely agree. I think that Philly will just try to stop the bleeding and not try to replace Howard while he’s out.

  325. Chuck Says:

    Philly has no first baseman.

    They have no rightfielder.

    Cuddyer would play everyday in Philly just like he does now in Minny.

  326. Cameron Says:

    No right fielder? They’ve got Hunter Pence.

  327. Chuck Says:

    Duh…I meant LF…Ibanez is gone.

  328. Cameron Says:

    I think the plan is to move Brown over to LF when he’s healthy again. It’s a gamble I’d take.

  329. Lefty33 Says:

    “I think the plan is to move Brown over to LF when he’s healthy again.”

    Brown is healthy.

    Health has nothing to do with why he didn’t make the postseason roster or as to why he got demoted again.

    Philly has no solid LF next year, they’re w/o their 1B for two months minimum and they are already shopping for a long term replacement for Polanco who has made it clear that he cannot get through 3/4 of a season any more without being on the the DL or attempting to play hurt which at his age and at 3B is not doing anyone a favor.

    Cuddyer would more than play FT.

    The issue with him is not the playing time it’s the fact that he’s a Type A FA.

  330. Chuck Says:

    I think the shine is fading off his star.

    I think he does get a chance next year, but it will be the only one he gets.

  331. brautigan Says:

    Chuck: No, Mr. Green will not punch your lights out. He’s a great guy, and I didn’t do anything to anger him.

    I saw Tyson Ross pitch in Fresno on July 5th. His command wasn’t there, but he was throwing hard. He will be good once he can shake the rust off.

    I saw Anthony Capra pitch at Frisco and while he had good stuff, he didn’t miss a lot of bats. Michael Choice was a good draft pick for Oakland, if I remember correctly, he led the Cal League in homeruns.

    And, check out if Yasmadi Grandal brought his girlfriend. She is pretty but looks like she just entered jr. high. (She also told everyone within ear shot she was marrying Grandal and had designs on how/what to decorate the house. Dude is going to have to squat to urinate……but I don’t know if you want to tell him THAT). Tell Brodie Greene that I have yet to meet a player as nice as him!

  332. Lefty33 Says:

    “but all those spots are pretty well set in Philly”

    Howard will miss at least 50-60 games next year.

    Utley has missed at least 30 games in three of his last five seasons.

    Polanco missed 30 games in ‘10 and 40 games in ‘11 and is 36 today.

    In LF you either have Mayberry who did great for half a season playing slightly more than P/T and Brown who didn’t play the field the last two weeks of the regular season and in the AAA playoffs due to his own defensive indifference.

    Cuddyer would more than play every day.

  333. Raul Says:

    Aroldis Chapman pitched 50 Major League Innings in 2011 and allowed a mere 24 hits while striking out 74 batters.

    Outstanding!

    Until you realize he also walked 41 batters.

    Mariano Rivera has walked 49 batters in the last 5 years — combined.

  334. Lefty33 Says:

    “I think he does get a chance next year, but it will be the only one he gets.”

    I agree.

    He’s in an accelerated version of the situation that Mayberry was in last year.

    Put up and you play or shut up and your in AAA or out of the organization.

  335. Chuck Says:

    Watching Brown chase a fly ball is like watching a drunk try to hit a pinata.

    I’d take Ibanez defensively over Brown, and I can’t see Brown hitting 20 homers, either.

    You can only get away with being “raw” for a little while, then it starts to be an excuse instead of a reason.

    He plays much smaller than he is.

  336. Chuck Says:

    Ross pitches Wednesday in Surprise, I was thinking about maybe taking off work early and going to check him out, but I’m kind of holding off for later in the week when Gerrit Cole makes his debut.

    Michael Choice was co-Player of the week (with Tim Wheeler).

  337. Chuck Says:

    Ryan Wheeler, not Tim.

    For the second time in five days, Wil Myers and Mike Olt have gone back to back.

  338. Cameron Says:

    Kennedy and Andrus’ beard, Holland’s mustache… Is this the season of goofy facial hair?

  339. Chuck Says:

    Don’t forget Axford’s stache.

    There’s things living in that bad boy.

  340. Cameron Says:

    If he actually trimmed it and just kept it as a nice horseshoe it would be… Less goofy. The scraggly bits at the end? That’s just…

    Why can’t guys just keep a nice, simple goatee? That’s what I like to do.

  341. Cameron Says:

    NLCS Game 2 matchup is Edwin Jackson vs. Shawn Marcum. Two guys who are decent, but overvalued.

  342. Chuck Says:

    I got St. Louis tonight.

  343. Raul Says:

    Chuck writes:

    “You can only get away with being “raw” for a little while, then it starts to be an excuse instead of a reason.”

    Truth.

  344. Cameron Says:

    Edwin Jackson in Miller Park? Flyball pitcher + homer-happy stadium = Pain.

    Therefore, my prediction is pain.

  345. Cameron Says:

    Interesting thing about Edwin Jackson? Most of the stuff of his that gets hit is a fly ball, but most of his outs are ground outs.

  346. Cameron Says:

    Jim Leyland just had a shouting match with five umpires and didn’t get thrown out. Badass.

  347. Chuck Says:

    In 2421 professional at bats before this year, Jacoby Ellsbury hit 30 homers.

    In 660 this year, he hit 32.

    To be fair, we all lost our minds last year when Bautista hit his 54, and to be fair, that was probably a bit more likely than what Ellsbury did this year.

    Bautista had one particular stat that raised eyebrows, Ellsbury’s entire fucking season is out of the Twilight Zone.

  348. Cameron Says:

    One season Bautsita hits 50 homers, the next he hits .300. Both were out of nowhere.

    To me, the most amazing thing about Ellsbury this years weren’t the numbers, but the fact that glass skeleton of his didn’t break anything.

  349. Chuck Says:

    To me, Bautista hitting .300 is more of an abberration than hitting 50 homers.

    I mean, Adam Dunn has five 40 homer seasons and if he ever hit .300 the world would stop turning.

  350. Raul Says:

    In the 2nd half, Bautista hit .257/.419/.477

    That’s more like his true ability.

  351. Cameron Says:

    Still not too bad, I could live with that on my team. maybe not for what he’s getting paid, though.

  352. Cameron Says:

    Just found out Trey Hillman is the bench coach for the Dodgers. …Good for him. If the new GM decides to replace Mattingly, Hillman will probably manage LA.

    …Which is bad news for LA.

  353. brautigan Says:

    We now know Detroit’s achilles heel is 4 deep in the bullpen. Ryan Perry had one of the worst lines in playoff history.

    IDEAS THAT SOUNDED GOOD AT THE TIME:

    “Ryan, you just made history, can I please have your autograph?”

  354. Chuck Says:

    Mattingly’s not going anywhere Cameron, and sure as shit not for Trey Hillman.

    Geez, where do you come up with this stuff?

  355. Chuck Says:

    Christian Colon played 2B today, Cam, if you’re keeping track.

  356. brautigan Says:

    Cardinals are pouring it on. Go Redbirds, go!

  357. brautigan Says:

    Lance Lynn threw one pitch.

    One.

    He gets the “W”.

    Outstanding.

  358. John Says:

    What a great stat.

    I flew in for the game tonight.

    Still worth it.

  359. Cameron Says:

    There’s this overall feeling that the McCourts and Ned Coletti boned the Dodgers so hard that they may go for house cleaning once new ownership comes around. Won’t really surprise me if it does happen. Those guys did bone the Dodgers hard.

  360. Raul Says:

    The Dodgers need new blood.
    Completely new ownership and management from the top on down.

    That’s probably unfair to the lower-end managers and scouts but it’s probably the way it needs to be.

  361. Cameron Says:

    I think the only guys really safe in a Dodgers house cleaning are Kemp and Kershaw. Ethier may be their third-best player, but he could bring in trade value and word is he’s starting to rub guys in the clubhouse the wrong way.

  362. Raul Says:

    Ethier is very streaky. It’s hard to rely on him for an entire season, it seems.

  363. Cameron Says:

    Streaky and can’t hit lefties for fuck. He’s one of the better bats in LA, but they fucked their farm system for guys like Casey Blake and traded Trayvon Robinson for no reason.

    …Yeah, restock that system as fast as you can.

  364. Raul Says:

    What team do you think Ethier would fit?

  365. Cameron Says:

    Wild hair up my ass? The Yankees. Seems like the kind of guy who’d fit right in with the Yankees and he’d be a defensive upgrade over Nick Swisher.

    Long shot? Pittsburgh has loads of expendable talent when it comes to trades and if they’re looking for a middle of the order bat for that team, there’s no one better. They could get him cheap, but I don’t know if Pittsburgh would really commit to it.

    Possible? Magglio Ordonez has to be just about done and Detroit still has plenty of young guys (and young pitching in spades) that could go in a trade. He’d be an upgrade over Brennan Boesch, who’s just as streaky as Ethier, but not as good.

    Most likely? The Twins. They’re losing Kubel and Cuddyer, Morneau and Mauer are starting to show wear, Ethier gives these guys a shot in the arm and they’ve got decent enough pitching prospects and young guys like Blackburn and Slowey. They probably wouldn’t even have to give up Gibson for him.

  366. Bob Says:

    Boston. He and Pedroia are frinds from their college days.

  367. Bob Says:

    I meant friends, not frinds. Sorry

  368. Raul Says:

    So,

    The Yankees, Twins, Pirates, Tigers and Red Sox.

    Interesting.

  369. Cameron Says:

    Oh yeah, forgot about Boston. I guess I didn’t list them because there isn’t much that matches up in a trade there. Neither does New York for that matter…

  370. Cameron Says:

    Any package Boston offers would likely center around Josh Reddick or Ryan Kalish and Lars Anderson. Yikes.

  371. Chuck Says:

    Ethier’s a free agent after next season, no one’s going to bite on him unless he signs long-term.

    As a Yankee fan, I don’t want him.

  372. Cameron Says:

    Barring a trade-and-extend. For a team like Minnesota who needs a bat and a newfound need to keep payroll around $125MM, I could see that happening.

  373. Chuck Says:

    Ben Revere, Joe Benson, Aaron Hicks.

    The Twins are loaded with OF prospects, why trade one or two for a guy who won’t be as good in the long-run?

    Take away Ethier’s hitting streak, and he had a dogshit season.

    Not sure why everyone has a boner over him.

    He’s not a star.

    He’s a lefthanded Delmon Young.

  374. Chuck Says:

    Lefty’s going to have a cow.

    Ruben Amaro Jr. wants Domonic Brown to spend all of 2012 in AAA.

    Funny thing is, he’s right.

    He’s not a major league ready player.

  375. Raul Says:

    Does Bryce Harper see AAA next season?

  376. Chuck Says:

    Will he?

    Probably.

    Should he?

    No chance.

  377. Chuck Says:

    Harper’s not in the same class as Mike Trout as a player.

    I’m so excited they are on the same team so I can go see them play side by side.

    I have an idea to run by you, Raul..email me,

  378. Raul Says:

    I’m curious to see how Jesus Montero does next Spring.

    He’s gotten a 2nd chance to take the reins and make the major league club. If I’m him, I’m busting my chops this off-season. If he craps the bed like last season, he’s finished.

  379. Cameron Says:

    And isn’t Austin Romine already on the major league roster too? If anyone’s taking Martin’s job, it’s a kid who’s on Martin’s level defensively.

  380. Raul Says:

    I think Martin gets re-signed. Montero won’t be the starting catcher.
    But even so, one has to think the Yankees will give Montero one last chance to take the back-up catching job and work as the DH.

    If he fails, this means he could not take advantage of two job openings. It would be really pathetic, honestly.

  381. Cameron Says:

    Montero showed he actually can hit pretty well in the audition he got this year. Who knows? He might just get his chance if he can keep this up.

  382. Chuck Says:

    Just to show you once again the AFL is more about the player and less about the stats.

    In the 19 year history of the league, there have been seven complete games.

    Five took place during the first season in 1992.

    White Sox righty Terry Doyle was perfect today through four innings and was pulled.

  383. Chuck Says:

    “I’m curious to see how Jesus Montero does next Spring”

    I’m curious to see what uniform he’ll be wearing.

  384. Cameron Says:

    …Why? Just curious.

  385. Cameron Says:

    Not the Montero thing, but why guys get pulled in the AFL so often.

  386. Raul Says:

    CGs don’t mean anything in that league, Cam.
    You just want the kids to get some work in.
    Besides, 4 or 5 innings should be enough to know what a kid’s got that day.

  387. Chuck Says:

    I really can’t explain it in one comment, but this league is 200% development and zero percent stats.

    I’ve seen guys hit a buck fifty nine and make the All-Star team.

    When he was with the Dbacks, I saw Max Scherzer throw 64 pitches in four innings, and they were all fastballs.

    All of them.

    He was learning a two seamer, and he was learning command and location.

    You saw him pitch against the Yanks in the postseason, right?

    His out pitch?

    Without the AFL, he’s probably filling David Hernandez’ job in Arizona.

    I remember going down to the bullpen after a game and watching Ian Kennedy throw a session, he said he was working on a new curveball grip.

    I went to his next start, and in the first inning, he threw 15 pitches, 13 were curveballs.

    That’s what the AFL is about, preparation.

  388. brautigan Says:

    Usually starting pitchers in the AFL last 3 to 5 innings. Often, there is a pre-determination of who is pitching/playing that day and they stick with it.

  389. brautigan Says:

    Chuck is right. AFL is about preparation. Players will get added to try and learn a new position, or a new pitch. Or, if players had extended time on the DL, they may get sent to the AFL to add at bats or innings pitched.

    AFL is one great time. I wish I was there………………..

  390. Cameron Says:

    Alright, I didn’t exactly know. That’s why I asked. Seems kinda cool. Wish they had more leagues like the AFL where you could send kids that need work. I know there’s the Domincan Winter League, but more developmental ball might not be a bad idea.

  391. brautigan Says:

    They do. Arizona has a developmental league, there is also the “Rookie” league.

  392. brautigan Says:

    AFL for the most part is for Major League ready players. They’ve already “developed”, now they’re getting some last minute prep for the show.

  393. Lefty33 Says:

    “Lefty’s going to have a cow.

    Ruben Amaro Jr. wants Domonic Brown to spend all of 2012 in AAA.”

    No cow here Chuck. (Mooo)

    If that happens it may actually be a good thing for all involved.

    Based on the teams issues both age wise and offense wise they probably need to go out and get an established bat to play LF next year be it a Cuddyer/Kubel-type or whomever.

    Mayberry + ? is probably playing 1B at the start of ‘12 since Charlie has a mancrush on him and that takes him out of LF which is where everybody has assumed that Brown comes into play.

    Brown had issues this year with Sandberg + Rende’s hardass style and if he’s back next year as manager that could really spell more issues for Brown as he clearly doesn’t respond to that type of approach.

    Either way next year needs to be a put up or shut up year for Brown. There is no way he spends the whole year in AAA. He either gets it and works his way up to Philly when one of the old farts breaks down or he gets shipped off for something before he is fully branded with the AAAA tag.

    Maybe if he spent more time worring about his play than being out at clubs and with hos until 4AM after games things would have worked out better for him this year?

  394. Chuck Says:

    When I went to see Kennedy…

    As I was packing up in the press box, I could see someone throwing in the pen, and it was pretty obvious he was wearing a Yankee uniform.

    So me and another guy walk down and are standing above the bullpen looking down, and we flash our badges, so he becomes responsive to our questions.

    We’re there maybe ten minutes and this elderly couple walks by on their way out of the park, they see what’s going on and come over.

    The guy has on a Yankee hat and sees Kennedy and promptly pops his first boner since the Reagan administration.

    I start talking to them, they’re out from God’s country visiting their newborn grandchild and happened to walk into the IHOP for breakfast the same day they’re handing out promotional tickets.

    After a couple of minutes, I nudge the guy (they’re both probably late sixties) and tell him to ask Ian a question. The guy kind of hesitates, so I write a question on my notepad.

    “Three weeks ago you were pitching in front of 50,000 people in Yankee Stadium in the biggest city, now you’re out here pitching in front of 200, what’s that like?”

    Kennedy said when he found out he was coming that he had talked to Phil Hughes about the league. He said Hughes had told him that just because there may only be 200 people in the stands that they weren’t any less knowledgeable or passionate than anyone in New York and that they were no less deserving of his best efforts.

    So we watch for awhile then Kennedy shuts it down so we start walking down to field level and hop the fence, figuring we’re going to get an exclusive.

    As we start walking, I tell the guy to follow us.

    Now, mind you, there’s no one in the park but us and the groundskeepers.

    So we all hop over the fence and head over to the bullpen area and Kennedy comes out to meet us. Doug Hogan of the Rangers, who was his catcher, comes out after him and we’re all standing on the warning track.

    I introduce myself to him, “Chuck Johnson, Dugout Central, owned by former Yankee…blah, blah, blah”, then introduce the couple to him like I know them.

    By this time I think he’s going to seize out, so I reach into my bag for something so he can have Kennedy sign it, and all I have is my media guide.

    With like two weeks of notes.

    So, after fumblefucking around looking for some scrap, I finally hand the guy the book and my Sharpie and not only does Kennedy sign the cover, he signs his player page, and hands it off to Hogan, who does the same thing.

    Then they pose for pictures with them.

    I don’t know where they were from, but I guarantee you no one in their little town knows more about the 2009 AFL than they do.

    Fifteen minutes later I’m at the grocery store and I hear sirens and my first thought was the guy went cardiac in the parking lot.

  395. Raul Says:

    That’s a fantastic story.

  396. Cameron Says:

    Seems like Epstein’s about to take a job with the Cubs. Says it’d be something higher up than GM like club president, but I bet he’s acting GM either way.

    They really like Epstein because of the way he handles a scouting department and drafts and… Well, I can’t blame ‘em. Lester, Buccholz, Pedroia, they’ve found some good talent whereas recent Cubs drafts have seemed… A bit lackluster to me. The only real star in that farm system in my eyes is Brett Jackson.

  397. Chuck Says:

    Cameron,

    Let’s be clear on something here.

    No major league team employs more scouts than the Red Sox.

    The reason is Theo doesn’t know his asshole from his pussy.

    He’s a genius because he has two hundred million to spend every year.

    You think the Sox record the last ten years would be any different if you were the GM?

    Come on, man.

    You think David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez have two rings because of Theo?

    You think the Sox won for the first time in a gazillion years because of Theo?

    They won DESPITE him, not BECAUSE of him.

    The Sox employ more BASEBALL people than any other organization.

    Undeniable, undisputable fact.

    THAT is why they have two rings in the last seven years.

    Theo is just along for the ride.

  398. Cameron Says:

    True, they do employ a fuckload of scouts. Still, a GM is the one who oversees and decides who to draft. Let’s face it, the Yankees probably employ a lot of scouts too and they suck at drafting.

    …Well, that and all their scouts are in Venezuela.

  399. Cameron Says:

    Aretha Franklin has won 18 Grammys. …18’s not nearly enough.

  400. Chuck Says:

    ” Still, a GM is the one who oversees and decides who to draft.”

    No, they don’t, JohnShaun, which is kinda the point.

    “the Yankees probably employ a lot of scouts too and they suck at drafting.”

    Do you realize how the draft works?

    The BETTER your record is, the WORSE your draft position is?

    I agree the past two years the Yanks have made some questionable choices, but at the same time, does it matter?

  401. Cameron Says:

    The worse the draft position, yes, but if you take a look at guys like Tampa, most of the guys they have are homegrown picks from later rounds. Any homegrown guy I see come through the Yankees with any shred of talent ends up on another team as part of a trade later. Just because you have late picks doesn’t excuse you from having shit drafts.

    And no, it doesn’t really matter that much considering the success they’ve had in the free agent market I suppose. If you’ve got that kinda budget, you can afford to shift all your money into MLB scouting instead of amateur scouting.

    But the GM is the one who hires the scouts and deploys them on where to look. Maybe they don’t pay them, but the GM is the one who works on the team, and Theo has done good work with his scouts. Chicago’s had pretty much the same payroll and a weaker division to compete in and their drafts, trades, and free agents have sucked. For the most part, Theo’s got 2 out of 3 right on those.

    And whatever you say about Theo, I may agree with some things. Yeah he’s got a bit of an ego, yeah he’s a bit of a diva, yeah he’s basically as good as his payroll gives him… But then I gotta remember you’re a Yankees fan and someone who has an unnaturally large hatred of anything related to sabermetrics, which leads me to take your opinions on him with a grain of salt.

    You’re not exactly an unbiased opinion. I call ‘em like I see ‘em, you call Theo a douchebag.

  402. Cameron Says:

    Have the Yankees ever beat Jim Leyland in the postseason? 2003, 2006, 2011…

  403. Chuck Says:

    “The worse the draft position, yes, but if you take a look at guys like Tampa, most of the guys they have are homegrown picks from later rounds.”

    Number of homegrown players on Tampa’s 40 man roster.

    20.

    Things aren’t always what they seem, Cameron.

    The Rays are more Oakland or New York than you believe.

    “But the GM is the one who hires the scouts and deploys them on where to look. Maybe they don’t pay them, but the GM is the one who works on the team, and Theo has done good work with his scouts. Chicago’s had pretty much the same payroll and a weaker division to compete in and their drafts, trades, and free agents have sucked. For the most part, Theo’s got 2 out of 3 right on those.”

    I put that into Google Translator and didn’t understand it any more than the English version, but I’m calling bullshit in any language.

    “But then I gotta remember you’re a Yankees fan and someone who has an unnaturally large hatred of anything related to sabermetrics, which leads me to take your opinions on him with a grain of salt.”

    Understand something, here, grasshopper.

    Theo’s ego is why Francona left.

    Theo has two rings because of Francona, not the other way around.

    The Red Sox choked the two of the last three years because of Theo’s sabermetric approach, not the other way around.

    There has never, ever, ever, in the history of the game who has won, or been successful longterm, based strictly on a statistical model.

    If you think the Sox or Rays or A’s won because of sabermetrics, then you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Come on, dude, you’re smarter than that.

  404. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think they won on a statistical model, I think they won because Theo realized that he needs to surround himself with good baseball people and made sure the Sox had the best scouts he could find and got good drafts in.

    “If you think the Sox or Rays or A’s won because of sabermetrics, then you should be ashamed of yourself.”

    No, they won by good scouting. Well, Tampa and Boston did anwyay.

  405. John Says:

    “The Red Sox choked the two of the last three years because of Theo’s sabermetric approach, not the other way around.”

    Um, no.

    They choked both times because of injuries.

    Now…Lackey/Drew? Those are injuries that Theo is responsible for, since they both have a history of getting hurt.

    Everyone else? Not so much.

    “You think David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez have two rings because of Theo?”

    Who signed Ortiz?

    “The Sox employ more BASEBALL people than any other organization.
    Undeniable, undisputable fact.
    THAT is why they have two rings in the last seven years.”

    Who did they employ before Theo came along?

    You know who else had a big payroll (in a smaller-payroll division)? The very team Theo is taking over, the Chicago Cubs. Good thing Jim Hendry ignored the numbers and signed OBP-killer Alfonso Soriano and Bminus-starting pitcher Carlos Zambrano to 220 million dollars worth of deals.

  406. Cameron Says:

    John, I think Chicago may have been incompetent from Henry on down. They’ve been drafting guys like Tyler Colvin and Hayden Simpson as first round picks. While they may be good players, they reached more than the Vikings did for Ponder this year.

    Hendry’s just the head of the serpent, you gotta kill the rest of the dumbasses in Chicago.

  407. brautigan Says:

    Theo was also responsible for Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria and Matt Clement. That trio came with the minimum price tag of $83 million.

    If Minnesota hadn’t mishandled Arias/Ortiz, Boston wouldn’t been in the position to sign him 9 years ago.

  408. Cameron Says:

    I maintain Renteria was a “good idea at the time” signing. Guy was coming off a great stretch, was winning Silve Sluggers, getting MVP votes, I’d say it was worth it at the time. Did it pan out like hoped? …Well, no, but it’s a bad move in hindsight.

    The other two? Yeah, bad idea from the start.

  409. Lefty33 Says:

    “They choked both times because of injuries.”

    Now John don’t forget that in Chuck’s world every team should never miss a beat when 7/12 of their opening day staff is either hurt or on the DL.

    Injuries are just pussy talk.

  410. Cameron Says:

    In Chuck’s defense, the guys on the team that were healthy still played like shit. Defensively, they made Milwaukee look like a team of Brooks Robinson clones.

  411. Cameron Says:

    Holy shit, in terms of WAR, Andruw Jones is the second greatest defensive player of all time.

    …Chuck, we may rip on you for hating WAR, but make any jokes you want because of that one. Holy fuck.

  412. John Says:

    Wait, we’re really gonna use Andruw Jones as a go-to example on why dWAR sucks?

    Did you ever see him play CF?

  413. Cameron Says:

    I agree he was an awesome fielder, but second best of all time? Ozzie Smith, Bill Mazeroski, Frank White, Mark Belanger, I guess they can all suck Andruw’s cock.

  414. John Says:

    What’s your frame of comparison though?

  415. Cameron Says:

    The fact he played in the same era as Jim Edmonds and just from watching the games I can tell Edmonds was a better center fielder. Jones was good, but I’ve seen guys who were better. To say Jones beats out so many greats in the past just doesn’t add up to me. To me, he was the second best of his era of his position. If you think he’s the second best of all time, you got a screw loose.

    Wait, Griffey… Third of his position of his era.

  416. Chuck Says:

    #407,

    He’s also responsible for Dice-K, JD Drew, and John Lackey.

  417. Cameron Says:

    Remember when I said Theo got two out of three right when it comes to drafting, trading, and free agents?

    Guess which one he got wrong.

  418. Chuck Says:

    “Did you ever see him play CF”

    Yeah, and it’s why dWAR sucks.

    So easy.

  419. John Says:

    “Wait, Griffey… Third of his position of his era”

    After he became a Red? He fucking blew. Injuries, obviously, but I honestly think that both Edmonds and Jones were better.

  420. Cameron Says:

    You saying Jones was a bad CF, or just overrated? Because the guy was awesome, just not the second coming of Brooks Robinson out there.

  421. John Says:

    “Yeah, and it’s why dWAR sucks.”

    You think Jeter is an elite CF.

    If you get to fewer balls than the average person at your position 15 times in 16 years, you’re not elite.

  422. John Says:

    *an elite SS.

  423. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, Griffey was a bit earlier than those guys. In Seattle though… Yeah, metrics have Griffey rated as a bad CF in Seattle and that’s why I don’t hold defensive stats in high regard.

  424. John Says:

    “Yeah, metrics have Griffey rated as a bad CF in Seattle”

    No, not really.

    His dWAR totals from 1993-1997:

    0.8
    1.1 (strike)
    1.4 (in half a season)
    3.2 (!!!)
    1.5

    Those are all elite numbers.

    From 2001 to the end of his career, Griffey was worth -10.1 dWAR, so he was at like +1/year in Seattle.

    Sounds about right. He sucked hard in Cincy once injuries took their toll, no disputing that.

  425. Cameron Says:

    True. When he was healthy he was still getting on it, but he had like, one healthy season in Seattle.

    But then there’s also defensive metrics rating Torii Hunter as a negative defender and… Yeah… No.

    That fucker was in my division for a decade, I know that guy can rob homers with his eyes closed then make the throw to double off the guy scrambling his ass back to the base without trying.

  426. Cameron Says:

    And I hate going to Anaheim because he can still do that on a good day. Fuck Torii Hunter.

  427. Chuck Says:

    Was Andruw Jones an above average defensive outfielder in his prime?

    Sure.

    Still not the best in his league, which is the point.

    A bunch of beat writers watching the game from their living rooms on DirectTV are doing the voting, and after a sixer, Adam Dunn is a good outfielder.

    Consider the source.

    Andruw Jones was a drunk steriod user who was usually trashed by the seventh inning and who made easy plays look hard and who made hard plays look impossible to cover his own ass.

    Jones won ten gold gloves.

    Arguably, he deserved three.

  428. John Says:

    “who made easy plays look hard and who made hard plays look impossible to cover his own ass.”

    Bullshit.

    Andruw Jones (along with Jim Edmonds) was incredible at reading the ball.

    You want a guy who makes easy plays look hard? I refer you to Captain Clutch, the most awesomest shortstop ever.

  429. Chuck Says:

    “Andruw Jones (along with Jim Edmonds) was incredible at reading the ball.”

    Um, yeah, ok, right..?

    Which is why he could make easy plays look hard, and so on.

    I mean, really, like, have you been drinking?

  430. John Says:

    Fairly sure you never saw Andruw Jones play baseball.

  431. brautigan Says:

    Jones, before he became the stay-puft marshmellow man, was an elite CF. No doubt about it.

  432. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, I’m pretty sure good CF made hard plays look easy, not the other way around.

  433. John Says:

    For shit’s sake, Jones got to more balls than anyone else while playing behind a predominantly ground-ball pitching staff.

  434. Cameron Says:

    I thought Jones was good, but my point is he’s not the second-greatest defensive player of all time. I can name at least five guys I’ve seen play in my lifetime who were better defenders than him and I’ve been able to legally drink alcohol for 31 days.

  435. Raul Says:

    Jim Edmonds couldn’t carry Ken Griffey Jr’s jockstrap.

    Get the fuck outta here.

  436. Raul Says:

    Andruw Jones isn’t the 2nd greatest outfielder of all-time.
    He’s not even Dom Fucking DiMaggio.

  437. Raul Says:

    Jesus Christ,
    I swear…John for a guy who knows something about baseball, you don’t know a fucking thing about baseball.

  438. John Says:

    Defensively, please.

    Stop attributing offensive accomplishments to fielding.

    If Griffey had Edmonds’ instincts, not only would he have gotten to more balls, buybut he wouldn’t have spent half his career on the DL.

  439. John Says:

    “Andruw Jones isn’t the 2nd greatest outfielder of all-time.”

    Seriously, what are you basing that on?

    How many games did you see him play? Like 10? 15?

    Griffey makes a diving catch and flashes a huge smile and it makes him the greatest ever.

    Jones reads that same ball FAR better, gets there in plenty of time, and gets the exact same number of outs on that play.

    Guess what? Jones got to more balls.

    But because he didn’t hit 600 HR, in crazyland, that means his glove was less valuable.

  440. John Says:

    Yet another example of the difference between appearance and reality.

    You make a diving catch and the “appearance” is that you’re a better fielder than the guy who made the exact same catch on the exact same ball standing up without destroying his collar bone.

    Which is fucking stupid.

  441. Cameron Says:

    Guys I’ve seen play who are better defenders than Andruw Jones…

    Ken Griffey, Jr.
    Jim Edmonds
    Torii Hunter
    Roberto Alomar
    Omar Vizquel
    Scott Rolen
    Adrian Beltre

    He’s good, but SECOND BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF ALL TIME!?!?

  442. Cameron Says:

    “You make a diving catch and the “appearance” is that you’re a better fielder than the guy who made the exact same catch on the exact same ball standing up without destroying his collar bone.”

    I agree that Andruw Jones is better than Jacoby Ellsbury too.

    …Wait, Ellsbury broke his ribs? Fuck it, we’re using the joke anyway.

  443. John Says:

    Apples to oranges with the infielders dude.

    Think about it, when an outfielder makes a good play, he’s more likely to save extra bases.

  444. Cameron Says:

    Still named three outfielders. They all got to the same balls that Jones did, though Griffey and Edmonds got themselves hurt because they didn’t have the same range and had to dive for stuff, but they had better arms.

    Griffey and Hunter also could get good reads on guys at the plate and the pitchers from where they were in centerfield and could play that into knowing when to play deep. Those guys robbed homers with alarming regularity, something I rarely remember Jones doing, that and they both had better arms.

  445. John Says:

    1) Jones robbed HR all the time.

    2) In his first couple years, Jones racked up tons of assists before the league got a hint and stopped running on him. Incredible arm.

    3) Jones still got to more balls than those guys while playing behind pitchings staffs that gave up fewer flyballs.

  446. Cameron Says:

    Eh, I’ll lay this one as “agree to disagree”. I think Jones was an elite CF, but I think there were better in his time alone, much less of all time. To list everyone not named Brooks Robinson as a worse defender than Jones just strikes me as all kinds of wrong.

  447. Raul Says:

    I was watching Andruw Jones play baseball when you were doing Show and Tell to your 8 year old friends.

    I’ve seen him play a lot more than 10 times.

  448. Raul Says:

    John @ Post 438:

    “If Griffey had Edmonds’ instincts, not only would he have gotten to more balls, buybut he wouldn’t have spent half his career on the DL.”

    BY FAR, the dumbest fucking thing ever posted on this website. This completely obliterates anything Shaun ever wrote.

  449. Chuck Says:

    John walks into a hotel bar, four guys at the corner table invite him over and introduce themselves as medical examiners in town for a conference.

    John, remembering that he once dissected a frog in seventh grade, accepts their offer to join them and promptly proceeds to tell them all how to open up the chest cavity during an autopsy.

    Other than Shaun, I’ve never come across anyone who claims to have played the game who knows less than you.

  450. John Says:

    This wouldn’t even be a conversation if Andruw Jones was a nice guy with a big smile who hit 600 HR and never used steroids, instead of a PED-enhanced asshole who fell off a cliff as soon as the Mitchell Report came out.

    You’re basically saying “I only watched sportscenter) if you rank Griffey ahead of Jones based on pure fielding ability.

    And I’m still waiting on an explanation for why Jones got to MORE BALLS while playing behind predominantly ground-ball/strikeout pitchers.

    What’s that? You’re going to just call me stupid because you don’t have an explanation? And you know as much about baseball as girls in pink hats who like a player’s personality and smile and look?

    Gotcha.

  451. Chuck Says:

    “And I’m still waiting on an explanation for why Jones got to MORE BALLS while playing behind predominantly ground-ball/strikeout pitchers.”

    Might want to check on that.

  452. John Says:

    Jones, RF/9: 2.76
    Griffey, RF/9: 2.60

    Griffey obviously played more games in CF.

  453. Chuck Says:

    Why are you comparing him just to Griffey? Why not the 50 some odd guys AHEAD of him on the career RF list?

  454. John Says:

    Mainly because you’re insisting that Griffey was better.

    No one’s mentioned those other guys, but they didn’t play behind nearly the same rotations that Jones did (generally ground-ball guys).

  455. Chuck Says:

    “Mainly because you’re insisting that Griffey was better.”

    I did? Where?

  456. John Says:

    So, he wasn’t?

    I mean, if I make a point, and you respond with YOU’RE RETARDED BLAH BLAH BLAH, my interpretation is that you disagree.

  457. Chuck Says:

    Again, John, where in this discussion did I mention the name Griffey?

    You make the retard comments easy for us, though.

  458. John Says:

    John: Jones was better than Griffey with the glove.
    Chuck: You’re an idiot.
    John: Wow, I guess Chuck thinks Griffey was a superior OF.
    Chuck: When did I say that?

  459. Chuck Says:

    You know, John, it’s one thing to disagree with something I said, but to disagree with something you made up that you think I said is kind going overboard, don’t you think?

  460. John Says:

    See, Chuck, you rarely actually come up with well thought-out arguments with evidence, details, etc. Usually, you just try to insult my manhood or something, which is hilarious.

    When you try and do that, I infer that you disagree.

    But fine, Raul is the one who’s insisting that Griffey was better than Andruw Jones, so maybe he has an explanation beyond the chick-in-a-pink-hat explanation.

  461. Chuck Says:

    I said Jones was overrated defensively, which he was.

    The only other outfielder I mentioned was Adam Dunn, which Jones was clearly better than.

  462. Raul Says:

    Griffey WAS better than Andruw Jones.
    Like everything else, you can’t grasp a fucking thing if some stat isn’t telling you what to believe.

    You really think defensive ability and skill comes down to how many balls you reach compared to other players? That’s how you measure defensive skill?

    You’re an idiot.

  463. Chuck Says:

    “But fine, Raul is the one who’s insisting that Griffey was better than Andruw Jones, so maybe he has an explanation beyond the chick-in-a-pink-hat explanation.”

    I haven’t seen anything from you saying he wasn’t, other than one simple stat.

    And for the record, Griffey WAS, in his prime, better than Jones.

  464. John Says:

    “You really think defensive ability and skill comes down to how many balls you reach compared to other players? ”

    Let me think about that for a second.

    YES.

    Yes, yes, yes, 1 billion times yes.

    How do you judge defensive ability and skill?

    Sports Center highlights? Flashy smiles? OFFENSIVE ABILITY?!

    If Ken Griffey Jr. had been a steroid-abusing jerk without an infectious smile, who hit like 200 fewer HR, we wouldn’t hear a damn word about his defensive skills.

    Which would be a shame, because he was outstanding for a while in Seattle.

    Just not as good as Jones.

  465. John Says:

    I love how I’m an idiot for suggesting that the goal of fielders should be to make as many plays as they can possibly get.

    What a crazy sabery idea!

  466. Raul Says:

    Christ, you really have such a narrow understanding of baseball.

    Without UZR and Range Factor you probably wouldn’t even know who Andruw Jones is.
    You probably think he’s Tris speaker’s cousin.

  467. Lefty33 Says:

    “I love how I’m an idiot for suggesting that the goal of fielders should be to make as many plays as they can possibly get.”

    In reading posts #458 & #460 John you are definitely an idiot for insisting that Chuck said something that very, very clearly he didn’t.

    I know that you hate reading things that are longer than a Tweet but Holy Shit man, take your Ritalin, go in the corner, suck your thumb with your binky, and come back when you’ve calmed down enough to exude a bit of reading comprehension.

  468. John Says:

    “Without UZR and Range Factor you probably wouldn’t even know who Andruw Jones is.”

    I guarantee I’ve seen him play more games than you.

    “Christ, you really have such a narrow understanding of baseball.”

    You think that the number of balls a player gets to isn’t an indicator of his skills.

    “In reading posts #458 & #460 John you are definitely an idiot for insisting that Chuck said something that very, very clearly he didn’t.”

    That’s fair, Chuck just chimed in with an offhanded remark but you’re right.

  469. Raul Says:

    I’m still trying to wrap my head around your declaration that Ken Griffey JR had shitty routes and that’s why he was injured.

    Kudos.
    That was a new level of stupidity I did not think was attainable.

  470. Raul Says:

    Tanyon Sturtz is 41 years old today.
    Sid Fernandez is 49.

  471. brautigan Says:

    John wrote: “And I’m still waiting on an explanation for why Jones got to MORE BALLS while playing behind predominantly ground-ball/strikeout pitchers.”

    I think you’re speaking to the view that Atlanta’s pitchers were ground ball pitchers and that was probably due to Greg Maddux’s splits, which were highly slanted towards ground balls. So, I took a random year (1998, the year Jones earned his first gold glove) and found that only Tom Glavine had more ground balls than fly balls. Kevin Millwood, John Smoltz, and Denny Neagle had more fly balls than ground balls.

    “You’re going to just call me stupid because you don’t have an explanation?” John, there was no explanation required because you weren’t speaking to the facts. However, that said, no one should be called names on this site. But, I reserve the right to call people out when they make blanket statements that are not correct. Pretty much like when Bill James called BS on Whitey Herzog when Herzog claimed Ozzie Smith saved his team 100 runs with his defense.

  472. Chuck Says:

    John thinks he’s the only one that can spell “BaseballReference.com”

    If he thinks Jones is the best centerfielder he ever saw, or is better than Griffey, fine, his opinion.

    Long as he doesn’t start a HOF argument, I don’t care.

    By the way, John, according to YOUR metrics or way of proving this, Robin Yount was a better CF than Jones.

  473. Lefty33 Says:

    “Tanyon Sturtz”

    Another member of the Joe Torre Flavor of the Month Relief Club.

    Sturtz is one of the few guys that Torre helped to finish his career off by doing his best LaRussa and pitching him way too often for the role that he had with the team.

    Other members of that club include Mike Stanton, Ramiro Mendoza, Paul Quantrill, Scott Proctor and Tom Gordon.

  474. John Says:

    “I’m still trying to wrap my head around your declaration that Ken Griffey JR had shitty routes and that’s why he was injured.”

    Didn’t say that at all.

    I said Jones read the ball better, got to where he was supposed to be faster, and didn’t have to make those same running-into-wall catches as Griffey (although he did have his share of HR-robs and spectacular dives that we are forgetting about).

    Griffey was fantastic defensively, Jones was better. I would say most “baseball people” hold that opinion. It’s girls in pink hats (Raulette) who disagree.

    @471, but we’re comparing players across different teams:

    1998 Braves: 1282 fly balls allowed
    1998 Mariners: 1577 fly balls allowed

    Andruw Jones, 1998: 413 putouts, 2.84 RF/9
    Ken Griffey Jr, 1998: 412 putouts, 2.83 RF/9

    Both of those are great numbers. But Griffey made one LESS putout with his pitching giving up THREE HUNDRED more balls to the OF.

    How can the interpretation be that Griffey was better with the glove? Because he hit 56 HR that year, or because his Dad was a big leaguer?

    Check out 1999

    Braves: 1497 flyballs
    Mariners: 1696 flyballs

    Jones: 494 putouts, 3.15 (!) RF/9
    Griffey: 386 putouts, 2.71 RF/9

    So, the Braves surrendered 200 fewer flyballs and Jones made over 100 more plays.

  475. John Says:

    “By the way, John, according to YOUR metrics or way of proving this, Robin Yount was a better CF than Jones.”

    I would love for that to be true, because Yount is pure awesome, and Jones is a jerk.

    Plus the fact that he won MVP’s at SS and CF is crazy.

    However, it’s not just about range factor, but how that range factor relates to surrounding circumstances.

  476. brautigan Says:

    Outside of Stanton and Gordon, the other guys really weren’t quality major league pitchers.

  477. Chuck Says:

    “Both of those are great numbers. But Griffey made one LESS putout with his pitching giving up THREE HUNDRED more balls to the OF.”

    No, Raul, THAT is the dumbest comment in the history of this site.

    Holy crap.

  478. John Says:

    @477, are you going to sit there and deny facts?

    If the world were run by you, we would still be looking for the fucking wheel.

  479. Raul Says:

    John,

    Seriously. I love ya buddy. But are you even capable of knowing a good defender without your computer?

  480. Chuck Says:

    #478,

    Jesus Christ, man.

    Were those 300 extra fly balls all to center?

    Or more likely to the corners, which, weren’t actually his to begin with.

    Sigh.

  481. Raul Says:

    I think it’s a fine line sometimes.
    Part of me thinks Joe Torre used some relievers too much.
    And part of me thinks every reliever should be capable of going 90 innings a year (minimum) — so if pitching Tanyon Sturtz 78 innings a year is “over-use” then good god…these relievers need to grow a pair and train better.

    I mean even Sparky Lyle pitched 80+ innings ten times.

  482. John Says:

    Of course.

    If MLB weren’t so asinine about video clips, I’d link you to some youtube plays.

    Jones did everything right. Read the ball perfectly, went back perfectly on the ball, and because of that, was able to take away a lot of balls that would otherwise drop for singles while, at the same time, pretty much never letting a ball go over his head.

    These are all physical explanations as to why he made so many plays.

  483. brautigan Says:

    John: There is some logical explanation. I’d concede that Jones was a better defensive CF than Griffey, but does that mean the discrepancy was Griffey cheated over towards right-center to cover for an older/slower Jay Buhner?(Griffey did have Brian Hunter in left, and I remember Hunter as a jackrabbit)

    Also, how does that explain Brian Jordan’s numbers in RF. He too had a larger putout margin than Buhner. Could it be that Seattle’s starting pitching was bad and Atlanta’s was much better? Hell, I don’t know, I feel like I’m grasping at straws.

  484. John Says:

    “Were those 300 extra fly balls all to center?
    Or more likely to the corners, which, weren’t actually his to begin with.”

    Those 300 extra flyballs were likely distributed like 30-40-30, which still makes it remarkable that Jones got to as many balls.

    The Braves gave up 20% fewer fly-balls to the outfield.

    So they gave up *about* 20% fewer fly-balls to centerfield, more than likely.

    Are you really going to cling to desperation here with “what-if’s” and shit?

    Jones was better, objectively and subjectively, than Griffey as a fielder.

  485. Raul Says:

    No, he wasn’t.

  486. Chuck Says:

    “Are you really going to cling to desperation here with “what-if’s” and shit?”

    You mean like this?

    “Those 300 extra flyballs were likely distributed like 30-40-30, which still makes it remarkable that Jones got to as many balls”

  487. John Says:

    “Also, how does that explain Brian Jordan’s numbers in RF. He too had a larger putout margin than Buhner. Could it be that Seattle’s starting pitching was bad and Atlanta’s was much better? Hell, I don’t know, I feel like I’m grasping at straws.”

    Wasn’t Jordan pretty good in RF? I remember him being a stud. Or maybe it was just a line-backer mentality or something, similar to what was attributed to Darin Erstad.

    Buhner only played 85 games in 1999, so naturally there’s a PO disparity. He was hurt, older, and slower than Jordan for sure.

    Another thing to keep in mind…wasn’t Ryan Klesko the LF next to Jones? He was kind of a stiff, right? So both gentlemen had one good corner OF and one bad one.

  488. John Says:

    @486, go ahead and perform an analysis on every ball in play during the 1998-1999 seasons and get back to me. If the Mariners exclusively surrendered balls to LF and RF, I’ll owe you a soda.

  489. Chuck Says:

    #488,

    Should have been done before making your comment, John.

    Point is, you have no idea, therefore it’s irrelevant to your argument.

  490. John Says:

    @489, the breakdown, percentag

  491. Raul Says:

    Oh no!
    Albert Pujols was 21st in Zone Rating!
    He sucks.

  492. John Says:

    -wise, hasn’t varied too drastically for any team.

  493. brautigan Says:

    In 1999, the Atlanta primary left fielder was Gerald Williams. He wasn’t Ryan Klesko, that’s for sure.

  494. brautigan Says:

    Jordan was the starting strong safety for the Falcons. He was pretty good too. But he must have figured his financial future was baseball. Pretty smart guy I assume.

  495. John Says:

    Pujols led the NL in total zone runs in each of his first 6 years at 1B.

    He finished third in 2011.

    What are you even talking about?

  496. John Says:

    @493, oh right…

    That was the year Galarraga had cancer, right? So Klesko played 1b, and Williams patrolled LF with some Otis Nixon spri/kled in.

  497. Raul Says:

    Guaranteed contracts, Braut.
    Plus, take a look at a 45 year old baseball player and a 45 year old football player.
    It’s sad.

  498. Raul Says:

    Thought I read that the average Green Bay Packers lineman during the Lombardi era was 240 lbs. It’s gotta be like 310 lbs these days.
    I don’t know what the average baseball player weight is but I would throw a dart in the dark and say it’s 185lbs.
    Average soccer player is probably 160 lbs.

  499. Chuck Says:

    Well, it’s official.

    Theo is a Cub.

  500. Chuck Says:

    Total zone runs?

    Really?

    (Facepalm).

  501. John Says:

    Raul mentioned zone ratings.

    Not sure if he thinks they have Pujols sucking.

  502. Raul Says:

    Pretty big shake up in Boston.

  503. Chuck Says:

    “Raul mentioned zone ratings.”

    He did.

    You mentioned zone runs.

  504. brautigan Says:

    I don’t think the NFL could drop guaranteed contracts back in Jordan’s day. But, when you consider the longevity of an NFL player is about 3 weeks, he made the right choice.

  505. Cameron Says:

    You know, I’ll credit John for making an actual naked-eye observation on Jones’ ability. He made plays standing up that most guys dive for. That’s what a good outfielder does, much in the same way that a good infielder is already standing where they know the ball’s gonna go. He knew what to do.

    My gripe isn’t that Jones is rated as a great defender, it’s that he’s. SECOND. ALL. TIME! In the history of the game. Bill Mazeroski and Ozzie Smith saved more runs and Frank White had a thousand times the defensive acumen than Jones. Apples and oranges my ass, they were more valuable defensively and knew how to defend better than he did.

  506. Cameron Says:

    The Astros are close to getting their sale completed and one of the terms of the sale is moving the Astros to the AL West.

    That means the Astros-Rangers rivalry is about to get a hell of a lot more interesting than one series a year. …In a few years or so.

  507. Raul Says:

    Defense isn’t quantified by range factor, no matter how many times John or Shaun tell themselves that it is.
    And all their like can do is glorify the players they did see because they can jimmy up the numbers to support them.

    Andruw Jones was a fine centerfielder. He wasn’t better than Griffey. And I’m not even sure he was better than Dom DiMaggio…or even Paul Blair.
    And I’d buy you jackasses a pizza if you’ve ever heard of Paul Blair.

    Well, I might be getting ahead of myself by saying he wasn’t as good as Paul Blair, but whatever.

  508. Chuck Says:

    According to dWAR, Griffey was a negative defensive player, which might be the most batshit insane thing I’ve ever read.

    It’s great people try and create stats that may give another way of looking at things, but when it comes up with something like that the best thing to do is run it through the shredder and start over again.

    Not to mention ever saying it publicly.

  509. Raul Says:

    The Astros should be contracted.
    Who cares about them.

  510. John Says:

    “Defense isn’t quantified by range factor, no matter how many times John or Shaun tell themselves that it is.
    And all their like can do is glorify the players they did see because they can jimmy up the numbers to support them.”

    You can’t come up with ANYTHING to support your claim that Griffey was better.

    nada.

    Just that he was a better hitter and he smiled a lot.

    Big fucking deal. He got to fewer balls, despite playing behind pitching staffs that provided him with more potential opportunities.

    What does that tell you?

    It doesn’t tell you anything because it’s omg Ken Griffey Jr, and have you ever seen his smile and that perfect swing, and omg, ucantbeserious, it’s Ken Griffey Jr.!!!!!!

  511. Raul Says:

    Free porterhouse on Chuck if anyone can support Griffey being a negative defensive player.
    Yeah, I totally put him on the hook for that. But it’s a lock…

  512. Cameron Says:

    “And I’d buy you jackasses a pizza if you’ve ever heard of Paul Blair.”

    For some odd reason, that name actually rings a bell.

  513. John Says:

    “According to dWAR, Griffey was a negative defensive player, which might be the most batshit insane thing I’ve ever read.”

    Chuck never saw Ken Griffey Jr. play major league baseball as a Red.

    Have you been living under a rock for the past decade?

  514. Raul Says:

    LOL You throwing up RF is LESS than an argument for Andruw Jones.
    You’re better off telling people that some gypsy grabbed a goat’s testicles and said Jones was better and you’d have a stronger argument.

  515. Cameron Says:

    “Chuck never saw Ken Griffey Jr. play major league baseball as a Red.”

    He was too hurt for anyone to have watched him as a Red.

  516. Raul Says:

    LOL, I think Cam just wants the free pizza.

  517. Cameron Says:

    Never saw him play, but I knew the name rung a bell. He was part of that old Orioles dynasty. Seven straight gold gloves and picked up an eighth in another year. Robinson, Belanger, and Blair were some of the best of their day.

  518. John Says:

    “Free porterhouse on Chuck if anyone can support Griffey being a negative defensive player.
    Yeah, I totally put him on the hook for that. But it’s a lock…”

    WAR is a cumulative statistic.

    Griffey averaged +1 dWAR as a Mariner.

    That’s fantastic.

    How many of you even watched a single game he played as a Red? Your minds seem to be perpetually stuck in the year 1999, so let me enlighten you: he sucked. He was always hurt, he was slow, his reactions clearly vanished, and he all-and-all just effing blew.

    The last decade of Griffey’s career, from both sides of the ball, added nothing to his legacy as a ballplayer. He reached 600 HR, but needing 10 years to hit 200 is nothing special.

    Griffey’s career dWAR is -2.3.

    In ONE SEASON, 2005, it was -2.6…so take away just one year, and he’s a net positive. The next year, -1.9. Guess what happened then? He was moved to RF, because he COULDN’T HANDLE THE POSITION.

    It sucks. I remember how awesome Griffey used to be – difference is, I’m not perpetually stuck in the Clinton administration, and I actually noticed how ineffective he became.

  519. John Says:

    Paul Blair and Dom Dimaggio have something in common: Raul never saw them play, but is going to insist that they were better defensive players than Andruw Jones based on subjective observations that he never made.

  520. Cameron Says:

    “It sucks. I remember how awesome Griffey used to be – difference is, I’m not perpetually stuck in the Clinton administration, and I actually noticed how ineffective he became.”

    I still wish it was the Clinton administration, too. Music didn’t suck and the economy was in the black. That’s beside the point. You want to say that Griffey’s bad years in Cincinnati made him a bad defender, need I remind you that Andruw Jones hasn’t been able to hold a job in baseball for four years running now? At least Griffey was good enough to play while in a Reds uniform.

  521. John Says:

    “You want to say that Griffey’s bad years in Cincinnati made him a bad defender, need I remind you that Andruw Jones hasn’t been able to hold a job in baseball for four years running now?”

    Yeah, he got fat and stopped taking steroids, thus becoming unable to hit.

    The difference was that Jones’s teams the last four years haven’t been stupid enough to run him into the starting lineup based on what he used to be.

    “At least Griffey was good enough to play while in a Reds uniform.”

    If you use the loosest possible definitions of the word “good” and “play.”

    The Reds, largely because of Griffey’s past accomplishments but also his contract, kept running him out to CF so that he could cost his team runs in the field. For several years they did this. Just because the Reds thought they could capture the past doesn’t mean they were able to.

  522. Cameron Says:

    Another thing, the reason that Griffey’s rated as a negative defender by dWar is because he was playing everyday as a Red. If Andruw Jones was still playing the field everyday for the past four years now, he probably wouldn’t even rank in the top 100 in dWar, much less the top 2.

    Numbers CAN lie, John. You gotta look at the shit in context. Jones doesn’t have a decline in that stat because he wasn’t given a chance to.

  523. Chuck Says:

    “Paul Blair and Dom Dimaggio have something in common: Raul never saw them play, but is going to insist that they were better defensive players than Andruw Jones based on subjective observations that he never made”

    At least Raul HEARD of them.

    “but is going to insist that they were better defensive players than Andruw Jones based on subjective observations that he never made”

    You’re claiming Jones was better than Griffey based on subjective observations, so I fail to see the difference.

  524. John Says:

    “Numbers CAN lie, John. You gotta look at the shit in context. Jones doesn’t have a decline in that stat because he wasn’t given a chance to.”

    But I’m saying Andruw was better IN HIS PRIME, which he was, objectively and subjectively.

    You all want to prove that WAR is witchcraft and if you thought about it for about 10 nanoseconds, you would realize that it’s fine, if a bit imprecise.

  525. Cameron Says:

    “You’re claiming Jones was better than Griffey based on subjective observations, so I fail to see the difference.”

    Can you really make an objective observation on a guy’s defense farther than “He caught that ball”?

  526. Raul Says:

    John,

    Were you born an ignorant moron or did you have to work on it?

  527. John Says:

    “At least Raul HEARD of them.”

    I’ve heard of both Blair and Dom Dimaggio, as well as Vince.

    “You’re claiming Jones was better than Griffey based on subjective observations, so I fail to see the difference.”

    That I actually saw him play?

  528. John Says:

    Raul,

    How does Chuck’s cock taste? A little salty?

  529. Raul Says:

    LOL

    you’re in the Navy. You tell me

  530. Cameron Says:

    “You all want to prove that WAR is witchcraft and if you thought about it for about 10 nanoseconds, you would realize that it’s fine, if a bit imprecise.”

    Fine, yeah. Imprecise?

    Players Andruw Jones Is A Better Defender Than According to dWar
    -
    Roberto Clemente
    Ozzie Smith
    Mark Belanger
    Willie Mays
    Robin Ventura
    Paul Blair
    Jesse Barfield
    Scott Rolen
    Mike Schmidt
    Omar Vizquel
    Bill Mazeroski
    Adrian Beltre
    Kenny Lofton
    Tris Speaker
    Frank White
    Wade Boggs
    Mike Cameron
    Jim Edmonds
    Bobby Grich

    And that’s just guys in the top 100.

  531. Cameron Says:

    ““You’re claiming Jones was better than Griffey based on subjective observations, so I fail to see the difference.”

    That I actually saw him play?”

    I was a kid in the late 90s whose hero was Greg Maddux and practically every Braves game was on TBS at the time. I saw Jones play A LOT in his prime. I think Griffey was better, and I probably saw less games of Griffey in his prime than Jones in his prime.

  532. John Says:

    @530, and how many of those guys did you see play?

  533. Cameron Says:

    In live time? Seven.

    In rewatching old games? Everyone but Speaker.

  534. Raul Says:

    @530, and how many of those guys did you see play?

    There’s really no hope with this guy…let’s change the conversation to something John can speak somewhat intelligently about.

    Who’s winning tonight?

  535. Cameron Says:

    Tigers and… I’m gonna put my money on the Brewers tonight. I think Carp’s gonna look a lot more like Game 1 than Game 5 tonight.

  536. Cameron Says:

    Martinez and Young are in the starting lineup tonight. Yeah, definitely Detroit.

  537. Cameron Says:

    Fun Fact: Knowing how to pitch in real life can make you good at baseball video games. I know it sounds nuts, but it’s the reason I kick all my friend’s asses whenever I play them. All my friends are hitters. I have shit timing at the plate, but all I ever need are a couple of lucky hits.

    Funniest thing that ever happened while playing baseball video games? My friend was playing the Brewers and I caught Prince Fielder in a rundown.

    Prince Fielder in a rundown. Just picture it.

  538. Chuck Says:

    “There’s really no hope with this guy…let’s change the conversation to something John can speak somewhat intelligently about.”

    Still waiting to find something.

  539. Raul Says:

    I have a playstation 3 and I hardly ever use it except to use Netflix.
    I have MLB 2011, I think. The one that has Joe Mauer on the cover.

    Anyway, I feel like playing stickball

  540. Cameron Says:

    We could talk about how to suck dick.

    …Okay, that was a bit below the belt. Sorry, John.

  541. John Says:

    Let me some up Raul’s arguments real quick:

    “Ken Griffey Jr was a better fielder than Andruw Jones because his name is Ken Griffey Jr, and that MEANS SOMETHING”

  542. Cameron Says:

    Mauer was on the cover of 2010, too. Guy’s becoming the new Derek Jeter when it’s coming to advertising. MLB games, Gatorade, Head and Shoulders, fucker’s everywhere.

    But my knowledge of pitching’s bailing my ass out when I’m working with bad pitchers. Since the season’s over and rosters are finalized for my game, I’m taking one last guy through a career. Starting pitcher with, uh…

    -Fastball that sits at 88-90
    -Slider that sits at 82-85
    -Circle Change that sits at 75

    All of them tend to go wild on me and I can barely rely on them to go where they should (pitch control is a stat for the character and it’ll improve over time). Plus, the guy starts to get gassed after 65 pitches and my control goes even further down.

    And yet I routinely throw CG despite being completely gassed because I know where to pitch shit to get the guys to ground out and get me out of there.

    That’s just against the computer. Against actual humans, I wreck shit because I know what they can’t hit. My weapon of choice is running a changeup middle-in. Gets a lot of guys out. That’s my out pitch in real life, too, actually.

  543. Cameron Says:

    Case in point, I just threw a 75-pitch complete game. Only 3 Ks, but fuck it I care.

  544. Chuck Says:

    You crack me up, Cameron.

    Ken Tremendous has nothing on you.

  545. Chuck Says:

    “We could talk about how to suck dick”

    You have that in common with him Cam?

  546. Cameron Says:

    Just a funny little thing I noticed. It really has no impact on anything, but I’ve seen guys who’ve never thrown a pitch in their life play the same game and fuck everything up.

    That, and by all logic the piece of shit guy the game hands you to start with should be a middle reliever at AA and he’s in the starting rotation and (thanks to me) has a sub-1 ERA. It’s hard to get good results with a bad player.

  547. brautigan Says:

    Raul: I’ll take a canadian bacon, with extra bacon.

  548. brautigan Says:

    @530: Everyone except Speaker. And I’ll add to the defensive guys later when I have a chance.

  549. Raul Says:

    Let me some up Raul’s arguments real quick:

    “Ken Griffey Jr was a better fielder than Andruw Jones because his name is Ken Griffey Jr, and that MEANS SOMETHING”

    ….”sum up”

  550. Cameron Says:

    The Pirates won’t pick up Paul Maholm’s option. Smart move, really. Maholm ain’t worth 10 million.

  551. John Says:

    @549, hard to argue with that.

  552. John Says:

    @550, I hadn’t realized that Maholm had only made 26 starts this year. How was that option ever even a thing? I guess he had a good 2008…

  553. Cameron Says:

    166 innings in 26 starts. Overall, not bad. He’ll probably be able to get about $4-6 MM somewhere.

  554. Raul Says:

    Rivera pitched half that and made like 15 million.

    Maholm should ask for 25M.

  555. brautigan Says:

    Who knows how good Paul Blair could have been. He took a fastball to the face, I think it was 1967, and he wasn’t the same after that. All you had to do was throw uncle Charley up and in and he was bailing out. Pure survival instinct.

  556. Cameron Says:

    At plate maybe, but it looks like the guy didn’t lose too much in the field.

    Of course, the only thing I can really judge that on is the fact he won 7 Gold Gloves after ‘67. …And one in ‘67.

  557. John Says:

    Fucking terrific.

    Mark Kotsay gets the start tonight because he’s 4-11 in his career against Carpenter, with at-bats predominantly coming when Carp was a BLUE-FUCKING-JAY.

    Or maybe it’s because of all the T. Plush drama in September.

    Either way, Kotsay gets caught off second base on a flyball and then fails to get to a ball that any CF in the world could get to.

    And for shit’s sake.

    Pujols-Holliday-Berkman? These guys are good.

    They face the Brewers and they OPS 3.000. It’s ridiculous. We might as well do what we just did, put all of them on.

  558. Raul Says:

    As a guy who respects gay rights…T. Plush is the faggotiest nickname in the history of sports.

    It’s even gayer than Gaylord Perry.

  559. Raul Says:

    So Gallardo gave up 4 runs on 33 pitches.

    Sure hope Prince Fielder’s fat ass is durable enough to hit 3 homers tonight. Because he’ll fucking have to.

  560. John Says:

    yeah, this is bullshit.

  561. Raul Says:

    Got the Tigers/Rangers game here.
    Can’t seem to find the Brew Crew.

  562. Raul Says:

    3-3 after a 7th inning homer by Inge to tie it.

  563. John Says:

    Brewers-Cards isn’t on TBS?

  564. Raul Says:

    Ahh…I cut my cable recently to save money so I’ve just got the basic plan plus HBO (mostly so I can watch Boardwalk Empire and Bill Maher).

    So no TBS for me.

  565. John Says:

    So, Mark Kotsay just homered.

    I’m pretty sure he’s still a net negative for the game, but I’m not positive.

  566. Raul Says:

    So you’re NOT going to burn Kotsay’s house down.

    Fantastic…

  567. Raul Says:

    Delmon Young hit a ball to RF and Nelson Cruz doubled up Miguel Cabrera at the plate.

    3-3.

  568. Cameron Says:

    It’s a fucking good game.

  569. John Says:

    Man.

    Gallardo got hosed by some poor defense in the first.

    But he’s pitched like crap all game, so he’s actually lucky to be through 4 with just 4 runs.

  570. Cameron Says:

    And now 2 ALCS games have go to 11th innings. Now there’s some evenly-matched teams.

  571. Raul Says:

    I hate Nelson Cruz.

    He’s like El Caballo part 2.

  572. John Says:

    Napoli with a base-hit, after a CS in the bottom of the last inning.

    Good move by the Angels to get rid of that garbage.

    Nelson Cruz hits a 3-R homer.

    I’m glad the Brewers got Ryan Braun and John Axford in exchange for him.

    Oh wait, we got 9 months of CoCo Cordero.

  573. Cameron Says:

    Didn’t you also give up Carlos Lee for him?

  574. John Says:

    “I hate Nelson Cruz.

    He’s like El Caballo part 2.”

    Ironic, since he was traded ALONG WITH El Caballo part 1 in 2006 to bring in *shakes violently* CoCo Cordero. Although we also got future Hall of Famers Laynce Nix and Kevin Mench.

  575. John Says:

    @573, good timing, yeah.

    I mean, Lee was gone at the end of the year.

  576. Cameron Says:

    Coco Cordero, completely overrated and overpaid.

  577. John Says:

    Also, Carlos Lee isn’t that good.

  578. John Says:

    @576, that’s true.

    Incredible the deals that those guys landed.

  579. Cameron Says:

    Not that good now, but he was still worth more than Coco at the time of the trade.

  580. John Says:

    But Cordero had an extra year left.

    I mean if it had been a straight trade Cordero-for-Lee, whatever.

  581. John Says:

    Yuni just swung at a ball that was eye-high.

  582. brautigan Says:

    Yes! Cards, 2 to 1

  583. Cameron Says:

    Well, I was 0-2 tonight.

  584. Cameron Says:

    Looks like Rangers-Cards is the likely series.

    …I’ll call Rangers on that one. Better pitching.

  585. brautigan Says:

    It’s 1999, and a friend of mine and I are flying to Phoenix for spring training. During the flight, I look over and see a co-worker of my wife. Her name is Robin. She is flying down to visit a friend of hers in Scottsdale, but her friend is at work and doesn’t get off until 7 PM, so we invite her to hang out with us as we get autographs. She’s like “sure, why not”. We have time to get over to Maryvale to see the Brewers head out to the practice fields. That means they have to walk across the entire parking lot, easy pickings for us autograph seekers. Robin tells us she is a huge Brewer fan, and she was at college in Milwaukee during the ‘82 world series. She is so excited to see Robin Yount, but one small problem, Yount isn’t there, he is at some auto race track that day. Each Brewer player that walks by, Robin is there yelling encouragement for the upcoming season. She is really into it. The players and coaches get a big kick out of Robin. Then, a familiar figure exits the locker room about 200 feet away and Robin YELLS out “COOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEERRRRRRRRR”. And Cecil Cooper slowly saunters all the way up to Robin and shakes her hand and they start talking Brewer baseball. At one point Robin says “I hate the Cardinals” and I say “Hey, I’m a Cardinal fan”. Cooper finally acknowledges I am there, says slowly and curtly, “I hate the Cardinals too”. Robin goes “Yeah”.

    Cooper did sign for us. And he made Robin’s trip to Arizona special.

  586. Cameron Says:

    I have now arbitrarily given my cat the middle name Earl.

  587. Chuck Says:

    Curious to John’s thoughts on Jackson’s getting thrown out trying to steal last night in the tenth.

  588. Lefty33 Says:

    Quick question for you Chuck.

    Have you seen anything at all from/about Cody Overbeck so far?

    One of the many rumors in regards to filling Howard’s shoes in April/May is to have either Mayberry platoon at 1B with a fill in or even possibly Rizzotti and then today I read one that suggests that the Phillies may bring back Gload again and that he may platoon with Overbeck until Howard returns.

    I know it’s kind of out there but I figure there must be a reason the Phillies thought enough of him to send him to Arizona. I understood why Rizz went last year after he tore up the FSL and EL but Overbeck is kind of a surprise to me as he was solid this year but not spectacular in anyway.

    Thanks in advance.

  589. Bob Says:

    Predction. The Sox trade Lars Anderson and Youk for Cosart and Ramirez.

  590. Chuck Says:

    “Predction. The Sox trade Lars Anderson and Youk for Cosart and Ramirez.”

    The Sox will make a trade with the Taliban National Team before they trade with the Cubs.

    Not happenin’ Bob.

  591. John Says:

    @587, everyone’s a genius after the fact, but…

    That seemed like a terrible idea with Cabrera coming up.

  592. Bob Says:

    Cosart and Ramirez are in the Phillies system, or so I thought.

  593. John Says:

    Cosart is in the Astros system. He was part of the deal by which Hunter Pence was brought over to transform the Phillies into winners.

  594. Bob Says:

    Yes he is. My bad. I heard recently that the Phils are looking for a 3rd baseman, and now they might need a 1st baseman.

  595. Chuck Says:

    Wait a minute, Bob, did you mean JC Ramirez?

    I thought you were talking Aramis.

    First off all, Youkilis had hip surgery and won’t be ready til May, so he’s basically untradeable.

    Second, Anderson is as useful as tits on a chicken.

    Third, you’re not trading an All-Star for two pieces of chicken.

    Bad idea.

    Even for the Red Sox.

  596. Lefty33 Says:

    “Cosart and Ramirez are in the Phillies system, or so I thought.”

    I hope your not talking about J.C. Ramirez?

    100% total SP failure.

    Decent chance he’s tried out as a RP this year in a attempt to get some ROI out of him.

  597. Bob Says:

    Yes I did. And how useful will Howard be when he gets back?

  598. Chuck Says:

    70% of Ryan Howard is better than 100% of Lars Anderson.

    Not even a question.

  599. Lefty33 Says:

    “I heard recently that the Phils are looking for a 3rd baseman”

    I’ve heard the exact same rumors that Philly will go out and get a long term fix at 3B while converting Polanco into a sub role.

    Even with the double hernia operation I can’t imagine the Phillies try and start Polanco at 36 for a whole season. He missed 30 games in ‘10 and missed 40 games this year.

  600. Lefty33 Says:

    “And how useful will Howard be when he gets back?”

    More useful than Gload, Mayberry, Rizzotti or any of the other stiffs likely to fill in. Howard will be back by May at the latest. The Phillies do not need a long term replacement.

  601. Bob Says:

    Fair enough.

  602. Chuck Says:

    Lefty,

    “Have you seen anything at all from/about Cody Overbeck so far”

    Yes and no.

    I did see Overbeck the other day, not much to say. He’s 25, he’s a college draftee just finishing his fourth year in the organization.

    He grounded out three times, and while he made a couple of nice plays around the bag, that’s kind of an expectation.

    I can’t say for sure, but he’s not on the 40 man, this could be his Rule V year and the Phils are evaluating him for a roster spot for them, or someone else.

    The Phils could either;

    1)Add him to the roster and consider him for a part time role in Philly or a full time role in Lehigh Valley.

    2) Add him to the roster and actually use him as bait in a larger deal that might get them a third baseman, etc.

    3) Expose him to the Rule V.

    I think #2 is the most likely option at this point.

  603. Raul Says:

    Trevor Hoffman is 44 today.
    Former Giants pitcher Randy Moffitt is 63.
    Former Brave and Astro, Frank LaCorte is 60.
    George Frazier is 57.
    Chris Gwynn is 46.
    Former Expo, Bob Bailey is 69.

    Hall of Famer Eddie Matthews was born today. He died in 2001 and would have been 80 today. In 1953 at the age of 21 he hit 47 homers. I’m not sure, but that may be the most homers hit by a 21 year old, ever.

  604. Chuck Says:

    Who holds the record for the most losses in a single World Series?

  605. brautigan Says:

    Since you guys are so young, you may not remember Billie Jean King is Randy Moffitt’s sister.

    Oh, and yeah, Billie Jean King was a fair tennis player 38 years ago.

  606. brautigan Says:

    I don’t know Chuck, but I remember Larry Sherry won 2 games and saved 2 games during the 1959 world series.

  607. Raul Says:

    byun hyung kim?

  608. Chuck Says:

    George Frazier, with the 1981 Yankees.

    Asshole cost me a fortune.

    He’s now the radio analyst for the Rockies.

    Braut, you must have been at Maryvale when it first opened, before everything was fenced off.

    It sucks now for autographs, players lot is off a security monitored access road.

  609. Raul Says:

    Lance Berkman takes the NL Comeback Player of the Year.
    Ok.

    But Jacoby Ellsbury?
    COMING BACK FROM WHAT?????????

  610. John Says:

    Yeah, how does that not go to Bartolo Colon?

    He was actually an ace (didn’t deserve the 2005 Cy Young award, but whatever), fell off the planet for half a decade, and resurfaced as a MAJOR savior for the Yankee rotation.

    Also, Lance Berkman landed an 8 million dollar deal to play for the Cards. Seems weird that you can win that award when a team was willing to pay a good chunk of change for him.

  611. Chuck Says:

    Here’s a play for your brain bank.

    Christian Colon got picked off second and thrown out stealing at third..on the same play.

  612. Cameron Says:

    …What the fuck?

  613. Bob Says:

    Ben Cherington it is. Go Tigers. See you guys tomorrow.

  614. Chuck Says:

    OK, COY is a fucking stupid award and really isn’t worth talking about, but how is Alex Gordon not COY?

    He sucked so bad last year he spent six weeks in the minor leagues.

    That’s a comeback.

    If getting hurt was criteria for COY, half the freakin’ players in the league qualify.

  615. Cameron Says:

    Berkman really didn’t come back from anything outside a minor injury. This award’s really the Bounceback Player of the Year. In that case, yeah, those two had the biggest bounce back seasons easy.

  616. Raul Says:

    I thought Kung Fu Panda would take it in the beginning

  617. Cameron Says:

    Sandoval was good, but he and Berkman both returned to what they normally play at.

    And Lance Berkman is a much better player than Pablo Sandoval.

  618. brautigan Says:

    The players parking lot was north of the stadium and the players walked behind a big fence to their cars. They had to walk across the parking lot to the practice fields BEFORE the spring training games. I haven’t been to a spring training game since 1992. I always had gone to spring training about a week before the games, that’s when the players are loose and talkative.

    Ah, the good old days. When the Brew Crew was in Chandler, we used to stand in the players parking lot and rack ‘em. It got to the point where Tom Brunansky and Greg Vaughn said “I hope I never see you guys again”.

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