Disrespect and Disgrace Apparent in Veteran’s Committee Election of Ron Santo

by Chuck

It’s finally happened.

Thirty-seven years after playing his last game, Ron Santo is a Hall of Famer.

I’m so disgusted I want to puke.

Not at the result, mind you.

While I’m on record as not being a supporter of Santo’s worthiness, but the process involved, especially the Hall of Fame in general and the Veteran’s Committee in particular.

The numbers are clearly there for Santo, he ranks eighth all-time in games played as a third baseman, and ranked second in the National League in runs batted in to the legendary Henry Aaron during the pitching dominated decade of the sixties.

A nine time All-Star and five time Gold Glove winner during his fifteen year career, Santo was forced to retire at age 34 due to complications related to his battle with Type 1 diabetes.

Diagnosed at eighteen, Santo kept his condition a secret throughout his career, making a public disclosure of his fight during ceremonies honoring his  career as a Cub at Wrigley Field in 1971.

Santo’s first appearance on the BBWAA election ballot was in 1980, where he received just 1.9% of the vote, and in accordance with voting procedures was removed from further consideration.

There was such an outcry that Santo (along with several others), was reinstated to the ballot in time for the 1985 vote.

Over the next fourteen years, Santo remained on the ballot, reaching a high of 43.1% during his final year in 1998. Not only was this the only time he managed to reach forty percent, it was just the second time he managed to obtain half of the required seventy-five percent needed for election.

Following his retirement, Santo spent several years in private business before accepting an offer to join the Cubs’ broadcast team in 1990. There he would spend almost twenty years, further cementing his legend and legacy among the Cubs’ faithful which culminated with the erection of a statue in his honor outside Wrigley Field.

While its primary function is to consider non-playing personnel for the Hall, the The Veteran’s Committee also takes a look at giving “second chances” to players who were “overlooked” by the BBWAA.

Hard to overlook someone for fifteen years, wouldn’t you say?

Initially nothing more than a good ol’ boys network comprised of a handful of retired sportswriters whose only thought was to reward their drinking and card playing buddies from days gone by.

In recent times, however, the “VC” has taken on a more serious tone, its tasks and responsibilities having been re-vamped and revised four times alone since 2001.

And, yet, here we are, I guess the old adage is true; “the more things change, the more they stay the same”.

So, after fifteen years on the writers’ ballot and another dozen or so under the watchful eye of the VC, Ron Santo has finally received his just do.

One small problem, though.

On December 10, 2010, Ron Santo died.

After a fifty plus year struggle with a disease which cost him both legs, but never affected his heart or his mind, it finally cost him his life.

And only then did the Veteran’s Committee believe him to be worthy of induction.

The phone lines are starting to burn between Chicago and Cooperstown as we speak, and Santo himself is undoubtedly clicking his heels wherever he is.

Congratulations, Ronnie. My personal opinions aside, you are more than worthy of your status as a Hall of Famer and I’m proud to have seen you play during your prime.

To the Veteran’s Committee, I hope you’re all happy.

You had twelve years to “right the wrong” of the BBWAA, and had more than enough time while Ron was alive to do the right thing, you know, so he could actually be around to experience what it is to be a Hall of Famer.

But what you’re really telling us now is he only became worthy after death?

While “better late than never” is true in most cases, all you’ve really accomplished today is to disrespect the legacy and memory of a man long over-due for this honor, and once again disgraced the integrity of what it is you actually stand for in the first place.


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221 Responses to “Disrespect and Disgrace Apparent in Veteran’s Committee Election of Ron Santo”

  1. Raul Says:

    And there it is.

  2. Raul Says:

    Want to know how far the stock has fallen on David Wright?
    There are rumors the Angels might trade for him…with a package around Peter Bourjos.


  3. Brautigan Says:

    Chuck: I couldn’t agree more.

    If they were going to put him in the hall, couldn’t they have done it while Ron was still alive?

  4. Bob Says:

    Great article Chuck.

  5. Raul Says:

    This could only mean one thing…George Steinbrenner, 2013!

  6. Cameron Says:

    Boss definitely deserves enshrinement. As for Santo, saw this coming. VC almost inducted him last time, this time around he was dead. He was inducted for sentimental value. For a player like Santo, that is BEYOND bullshit.

  7. Raul Says:

    Guaranteed none of the soulless clowns at ESPN or Fox Sports will criticize this election.

    They’ll briefly lament that he passed and will praise the VC for electing him.

    Sportswriters really are cowards these days.

  8. Cameron Says:

    Sportswriters are almost always full of shit, Raul. It’s part of the job description. The only sports journalist I seem to respect anymore is Bob Costas, and he barely writes. Gammons is respectable too, but the Red Sox bias is a little too heavy for me not to roll my eyes.

  9. Brautigan Says:


    Why would you think Steinbrenner deserves enshrinement? I mean, hey, why not put Charley Finley in as well, especially since Finley at least had some ideas about improving baseball while Steinbrenner offered not much of anything.

  10. Cameron Says:

    Because Steinbrenner, like it or not, did impact the game pretty heavily. May not have been a positive, but you can sure as hell see his influence on the game today with the Yankees still being a dominant team and setting the bar for the rest of the league in business dealing.

    That and the fact he pretty much singlehandedly revived the team after CBS made the Yanks tank.

  11. Bob Says:

    Finley harassed Joe Cronin.

  12. Raul Says:

    Steinbrenner won’t ever get elected because of the Dave Winfield thing.

    But if you’re talking about impact, would argue that Curt Flood belongs?

  13. Cameron Says:

    …I’m torn on Flood to be honest. He started the whole free agency thing, but there isn’t one real name you can credit. It’s a mix of Flood, Miller, Messermith, and McNally that was responsible for that one and aside from Miller, I don’t think any of them deserve induction for their work. If Flood won the case and started free agency by himself, I’d argue, but the fact that it was such a muddled process hurts him more than anything.

  14. Raul Says:

    So you’re saying that teamwork hurt?

  15. Cameron Says:

    Holy shit, the Marlins signed Bell and Reyes and they’re STILL talking to Albert Pujols. I knew they were serious about adding name players, but holy shit, where’d this money come from?

  16. Cameron Says:

    Hurt the cause? No. Hurt Flood’s candidacy? Yeah.

  17. Bob Says:

    I thought OldHossRadbourn told us where the money is comiing from. Although in fairness to you, the S.E.C. is poring over those very details as we type back and forth.

  18. Cameron Says:

    They’re just investigating the stadium. See if the Marlins didn’t bribe the city into financing the new stadium. The team paid next-to-nothing on it and the stadium caused such an uproar in the city the mayor got recalled. It looks pretty shady.

    I knew the Marlins were holding back and that’s the part I can tolerate. It’s the potentially illegal dealings with the stadium that’s raising all the red flags.

  19. Jim Says:

    Congratulations to Ron Santos.

    In the good news department, Ryan Westmoreland had been cleared to play. He’ll DH in the Dominican winter league. For anyone not familiar with Ryan, he was diagnosed with a brain aneurism durning spring training of 2010 and had very delicate surgery to repair it. He’s spent the last two years rehabbing. Westmoreland was the RS top field prospect when he underwent surgery.

  20. Brautigan Says:

    Thanks for the update Jim, I hadn’t heard much about Westmoreland and was wondering how he was doing. And, I’m pretty sure he didn’t have a brain aneurism, I think there was something about the lining of the blood vessels in the brain that were inordantly small, which could lead to bleeding in the brain (in short, he was at high risk for an aneurism).

  21. Brautigan Says:

    So, Cam, you’re saying Steinbrenner belongs in the hall for being a jagaloon? If that’s the case, then pave the way for Jose Canseco’s enshrinement.

  22. John Says:

    I guess I agree with the article.

    To me, the real disgrace was the 25 or so times that “they” got it wrong.

    But the idea that it was his death that made him Hall-worthy is an absolute insult to Santo, as a person and as a ballplayer.

    His career should have been enough.

  23. Bob Says:

    Jim, thanks for the update on Westmoreland.

  24. Cameron Says:

    For being a jagaloon? No. For creating the greatest dynasty in baseball? Yes.

  25. Cameron Says:

    Westmoreland’s official reason for leave was a “cavernous malformation” they caught on a scan. It was early enough to be operated on, but if left unchecked it could have lead to cerebral hemorrhaging and aneurysm.

  26. Bob Says:

    The Twins will re-sign Matt Capps. Have a great night,guys.

  27. Cameron Says:

    A team, not named but also specified to not be the Rangers, has offered CJ Wilson six years.

    I think Wilson deserves six years less than Reyes. Reyes may be more brittle than Wilson, but he’s also younger had more success and has more consistent success.

  28. Raul Says:

    Mystery teams never exist.
    This is bullshit.

  29. Cameron Says:

    Maybe. I wouldn’t be surprised. When pitching’s a premium in the offseason, people are likely to overpay.

    …And Washington’s known to make REALLY stupid offers, so something tells me it’s them.

  30. John Says:

    “Mystery teams never exist.
    This is bullshit.”

    Cliff Lee begs to differ.

  31. Raul Says:

    Cliff Lee can beg all he wants.

  32. John Says:

    Cliff Lee was supposed to be either a Ranger or Yankee in 2011.

    He became a Phillie, pretty much out of nowhere.

    The Phillies were a mystery team.


  33. Raul Says:

    Underdog. Not mystery.

  34. John Says:

    Not really…and underdog would be if like, the Pirates swooped in and had gotten them, which would have been dumb.

    Or if the Marlins committed more money to two players than they have to their last four teams. Oh wait…

  35. Cameron Says:

    Underdog? They weren’t even revealed as a potential signing until the day of, yet there was always rumors of “mystery teams”.

  36. Chuck Says:

    The Phillies weren’t the mystery team, John.

    They were the silent team, they were always Lee’s first choice.

    They just stood back and watched while Lee’s agent tried to get the seventh year he wanted.

  37. Chuck Says:

    For Sale.

    One disgruntled 28 year old shortstop and former batting champ.

    Having a temper tantrum over having to change positions.

    Serious inquiries only, please.

    Contact Miami Marlins at 800-Hanleysapunk.

  38. Raul Says:

    Hanley really fell off.

    Kid’s not very good defensively, and has an attitude problem.
    Honestly, I would consider trading him if he is having a decent season at the break as it’ll improve his stock.

    15 million is a lot of money for Florida to have invested in a guy you have to prod all the time.

    I know Chuck read that and thought: Funny, I was thinking the same about Robinson Cano and his defense.

    Perhaps. But Cano isn’t nearly as lazy and his attitude is fantastic.

  39. Cameron Says:

    And CJ Wilson’s six-year offer has been confirmed to be… From Washington. Called it.

  40. Cameron Says:

    And Yoenis Cespedes is personally demanding double what it took to sign Aroldis Chapman.

    …This trainwreck is just beautiful to watch.

  41. Chuck Says:

    Apparently, Hanley sent a tweet today that said something like, “I am the Marlins shortstop as of now.”

    And Jim Riggleman will manage the Reds’ new AA team in Pensacola Fl in 2012.

  42. Chuck Says:

    From Adam Kilgore at the Washington Post;

    “Multiple Washington sources confirming Wilson’s offer did not come from the team, all are saying interest in him is lukewarm at best.”

    Back to the drawing board, Cam.

  43. John Says:

    “Having a temper tantrum over having to change positions.”


  44. Cameron Says:

    That’s because no one’s given Hanley the phone call yet. Probably because they don’t know where to shift him.

    …My tentative money’s on second base.

  45. Chuck Says:

    “And Yoenis Cespedes is personally demanding double what it took to sign Aroldis Chapman.”

    Some stupid team like the Royals will give it to him.

  46. Chuck Says:

    LOL John.

  47. Cameron Says:

    DAMN YOU JIM DUQUETTE! Although I still think it was Washington and they’re just trying to be discrete. Bill Clinton “didn’t” sleep with Monica Lewinsky, R Kelly “didn’t” pee on a fourteen year old, and Michael Jackson “didn’t” molest little boys.

    Like I’m about to believe Washington really didn’t do something as stupid as offering Wilson six.

  48. Cameron Says:

    We need a center fielder, but remember, David Glass is allergic to breaking out his checkbook.

  49. John Says:

    @44, I thought third base was the foregone conclusion.

    You don’t wanna trade Hanley if you can help it, just because his value has never been lower.

    If you trade a player with that much talent, you wanna get something substantive back for him…it seems that they’d be selling themselves short by trading him right after an injury-riddled, likely outlier season.

  50. Chuck Says:

    Lorenzo Cain?

    Derrick Robinson?

    Jarrod Dyson?

    Jeff Francoeur?

  51. Chuck Says:

    Hanley Ramirez for Zack Greinke?

    Obviously it wouldn’t be a one for one, but……………..

  52. Cameron Says:

    They do need a third baseman, but something tells me they might keep Hanley up the middle because of his experience there and Infante moves to third.

    Frenchy isn’t a centerfielder, Robinson and Dyson remind me WAY too much of that time we tried to make Joey Gathright and everyday player, and I have hopes about Cain but still…

    Though we’ll take our chances with Cain and stay out of Cespedes. Our focus this year is pitching.

  53. John Says:

    I’m surprised that Lorenzo Cain is being deemed unfit to play CF defensively.

    The assumption in Milwaukee was that he was going to make the team out of spring training in 2011 and likely beat out Carlos Gomez for the starting job.

    Of course, the Greinke trade happened, and we ended up trading for two people named Nyjer Morgan and Tony Plush to play CF.

  54. John Says:

    “Hanley Ramirez for Zack Greinke?

    Obviously it wouldn’t be a one for one, but……………..”

    The question, then, is what would the Brewers throw in, seeing as Greinke has just 1 year left.

    A guy who moon-lights as a Graceland security guard is slated to be the Brewers starting 3B this year.

  55. Cameron Says:

    If you’re thinking Dominugez and Ramirez for Greinke you’re out of your mind.

    I’ve watched Hanley and while he’s not a great defender, last season was an offensive fluke. I’ve watched Greinke FOR YEARS and I know that ERA that he posted last year was not a fluke.

  56. John Says:

    I was assuming that the Brewers would be throwing someone in.

    It’s got a lot more to do with control (Hanley is signed for 3 years, Greinke 1) than actual skill.

  57. Cameron Says:

    John, just out of curiosity, do you follow the Bucks much?

  58. John Says:

    No – I really gave up on the Bucks (and the NBA, for that matter) when they traded Ray Allen for 2 months of Gary Payton.

    Allen was a local deity, a superstar in the making, a great leader, and basically everything you could ever want out of the face of your franchise.

    And we traded him (and I believe our first round pick) for 2 months of Gary Payton.

    So stupid. I’m not even sure if Payton was better than Allen AT THE TIME. With him, we barely snuck into the playoffs that year, only to get bounced in the first round.

    Just completely moronic.

    Even though I owe my career to Herb Kohl, I’m still just completely dumbfounded that he – an effing United States Senator – would sign off on that.

  59. Cameron Says:

    Then you’d kinda scratch your head at what happened in my game. My small forward was drafted by the Bucks (highest I’ve ever been drafted in NBA 2K, so I’m proud of that one), and a week or so into the season, Brandon Jennings gets shipped off to Utah for Derrick Favors.

    …So now point guard is a fucking carosuel, but the team’s looking great down low. Still pissing me off that Jennings isn’t pulling guys off me when I’m getting close to the net. It’s really making me pull my hair out. Then again, I’m scoring like 35 PPG, so I can’t complain.

  60. Lefty33 Says:

    Speaking of mystery teams and silent teams; according to Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com the first meeting between Amaro and Dan Lazano in regards to Rollins went poorly.

    Supposedly “sources” from the Rollins camp are claiming that he’s got a mystery team or two that is highly interested and willing to give the five years he’s demanding and “sources” from the Phillies are putting out that they are currently in the process of trying to move Polanco so that they can sign Aramis to play 3B while going with a rent-a-SS for a season or two until Galvis is ready.

  61. Raul Says:

    Yeah, a mystery team is offering Rollins 5 years.

    The Giants?

    The Yomiuri Giants.

  62. Mike Felber Says:


    I was all set to object to many potential arguments. But this is a deeply classy, considered, & well wrought article.

    Great job Chuck.

  63. Cameron Says:

    And the Marlins met with Albert Pujols today. …Met with him twice today… Met with him twice today and offered him ten years…


  64. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox and A’s are going to discusss Andrew Bailey today.

  65. Chuck Says:

    Thank-you Mike.

  66. Bob Says:

    Lefty, shoud the Phillies surpass the 3-year deal worth $25 million the Twins offered Cuddyer?

  67. Jim Says:

    3 years and $25M is all the money for Cuddyer. The Twins overvalue him. A good teammate and a fan favorite, but still. No the Phillies shouldn’t up the price.

  68. Brautigan Says:

    Maybe the Phillies are trying to strike gold twice. Cuddyer could be Jayson Werth (given Werth’s career curve)………….but probably not.

  69. Jim Says:

    Let’s see Werth and Cuddyer, both born in 1979. So yes Cuddyer could follow Werth’s career path, making 3/25 stupid.

    What’s in the water in Miami? 10 years $200M for Pujols? If the Cardinals congratulate him and wish him luck you can’t blame them.

  70. John Says:

    Wasn’t Pujols’ original offer from St. Louis for 9 years, 210 million? That’s more…

  71. Cameron Says:

    St. Louis’ offer is upped… To 9/220 as of now. I don’t know how much money Miami’s offering, but if anything’s been proven lately it’s that guys are looking for contract length these days. Though it seems to be enough that St. Louis is seriously thinking they might lose this race.

  72. Cameron Says:

    Actually, according to my math where it says that St. Louis is offering Albert 9 years wth AAV of $22MM, that means it’s roughly… 9/200.

    So same money really, but Miami’s offering more years.

  73. Brautigan Says:

    9 years, 200 million is too much, you’re over paying for Pujols. You’d be wasting about half that amount of money.

    If Pujols was 24 or 25, then yes, I’d say go for it. And when players of Pujols size and stature go south, it is not very pretty.

    So, as a Cardinal fan, I’d hate to lose Pujols, but as a Cardinal fan, I’d rather see him go to Miami with that kind of contract.

  74. Raul Says:

    So if Miami can get Pujols (and I still think Pujols stays put in STL), they’ll have a lineup of Pujols, Stanton, Gaby Sanchez, Reyes, Ramirez, Morrison and potentially Matt Dominguez.

    Would be impressive.
    Though I think with Hanley moving positions, someone is on the way out sooner or later. Either Hanley or Morrison. I don’t see Dominguez getting moved.

  75. Cameron Says:

    I think they might keep Hanley because he’s the name in Miami. They got guys like Bell and Reyes for star power to help sell tickets more than anything, don’t see them trading away a guy the people in Miami know for a replacement.

    Besides, Hanley’s decent enough up the middle to play second. I think his attitude recently may just be coming from the fact that the Marlins sucked and he stopped caring. If this shot in the arm brings the team back up, he might get his shit together.

  76. Raul Says:

    15 million is a lot for Hanley

  77. Raul Says:

    I suppose it’s official.

    Hanley Ramirez is on record that he does not want to play 3B.
    Atta boy. That’s what you call a team player. When you suck at your position, you don’t go elsewhere to help the team. You double down.

  78. Raul Says:

    I wouldn’t even say that Ramirez is the face of that team.
    It’s probably already Mike Stanton.

  79. Bob Says:

    Hearing rumors that the Sox won the posting for SS Hiroyuki Nakajima. If true, that is awesome, from my perspective.

  80. Chuck Says:

    Hanley Ramirez has officially demanded to be traded.

  81. Chuck Says:


    I don’t understand.

    You already have a minor league playing SS in Jed Lowrie.

    Unless he has access to uncensored Japanese porn, he carries no value.

  82. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 66 – Do I think they will? No.

    Should they from a financial standpoint? No.

    Should they from a baseball standpoint? Hell Yes.

    Utley has got a degenerative hip condition, Polanco has missed 70+ games the last two years, as of now they have no SS, Howard’s effectiveness in 2012 is questionable, and Amaro’s idea of “fixing” LF is apparently to go with a Mayberry/Nix platoon.

    So yes a guy like Cuddyer who can play multiple positions, more or less stays healthy, and unlike the majority of guys on their roster actually gets on base would be crucial to upgrading their offense which is the reason that they’ve gone home early the last three years.

    That said, what Amaro has done so far this offseason has been less than stellar.

    Overpaying for a closer, resign a backup catcher that didn’t even hit his own weight in ‘11, sign two bench players in Wigginton and Nix that are low OBP free swinging K machines to an offense that already has issues with getting guys on base seems like he is doubling down on he same bad strategy that keeps getting them bounced earlier from the playoffs every year.

    Bold prediction #1: If the Phillies don’t get past the DS round in ‘12 Charlie and Gross are both fired and Sandberg is the manager for ‘13.

  83. Bob Says:

    I think this gives them the ability to trade one of their surplus infielders for a bullpen arm or a prospect. From what I have read, a few teams are interested in Lowrie.

  84. Chuck Says:

    The Phillies already signed Michael Cuddyer.

    Unfortunately, it was his alias, Ty Willingham.

  85. Raul Says:

    They signed both Ty Wiggington and Josh Willingham?

  86. Chuck Says:

    No, Willingham was with Oakland last year and reportedly has a deal with Tampa.

  87. Chuck Says:

    LOL…got me, Raul.

    I just got what I wrote.

    Same player, similar name.


    That’s funny like someone falling upstairs funny.


  88. Raul Says:


    And actually, Ty Willingham was one of the former coaches of the Notre Dame football team.

    Pretty confusing…

  89. Cameron Says:

    So Willingham’s going to Tampa after all? I’m a bit confused, where’s he gonna play? Right’s pretty set with Zobrist/Joyce, center’s got BJ, and left has Jennings. Is he gonna DH?

  90. Cameron Says:

    As for Hanley, he may be asking for a trade, but word from both Loria and Guillen is, more or less, “Tough shit, you’re staying.”

  91. Bob Says:

    David Ortiz will accept arbitration and stay with the Sox. Have a great night.

  92. Jim Says:

    Yup, no one was interested in giving Ortiz a 3 year deal and the Sox offer on a two year deal would be short money if he gets $13-15M in arbitration and signs a deal for 2013 that is even $5M

    Oh and the Sox signed the immortal (or is that immolating) Andrew Miller a one year non-guaranteed deal.

  93. Cameron Says:

    Latest reports on Miami’s offer to Pujols is that it’s 10/220.

  94. John Says:

    Haley Ramirez is literally doing the exact same thing Michael Young did twice.

  95. Cameron Says:

    And Young changed his tune once the Rangers started winning and he doesn’t wanna leave now. Hanley, take note.

  96. Raul Says:

    What’s Pujols gonna do?

    Make your choices.

  97. Cameron Says:

    At this rate, I’m leaning towards Miami. Free agent market’s been trending to longer-term deals over big money deals recently. If the Marlins are serious about signing him, they’re gonna make it a race.

    And if they do sign him and still say they’re trying to sign guys like CJ Wilson, then my goddamn head’s gonna explode.

  98. Raul Says:

    But if STL is offering 9 years and Miami is offering 10, is that really enough of a reason for him to leave?

  99. Raul Says:

    You could argue that Pujols could get more media exposure in a place like Miami, but I never got the impression that was ever his goal.

  100. Raul Says:

    Pretty sure Pujols takes more money home in Miami because of the tax situation in Florida.

  101. Cameron Says:

    Well, it’s roughly the same money per year by the latest reports, 22 per, so why not get that extra year of pay?

  102. Cameron Says:

    Also seems like Pujols is leaning more towards Miami. He likes the money, he likes the years, but details for no-trade clauses are coming up.

  103. Lefty33 Says:

    @96 – I would like to think he does not go to Miami because while he would likely get paid more he, like the rest of us, has to question whether Loria is actually committed to winning or is this just a big PR stunt to sell tickets for a couple of years.

    What happens in 2014 when the Marlins still haven’t won anything and the apathy that has been the fanbase in the whole state starts to show?

    The team has never had a payroll higher than 60 million and now they are going to spend half that potentially on just Albert and Bell?

    This whole “Now I’m going to spend money” thing by Loria is no more than a stunt and it’s sad that Bell fell for it.

    Loria is just hoping to ride the bump that comes from opening a new stadium for the first 2-3 years but then what?

    Albert would be an idiot to go to Florida.

    He should stay with an organization that has proven they are committed to winning and skip just making a cash grab thats going to turn out bad when at best it’s him, Bell, Hanley, Josh Johnson, Nolasco and 20 AAA players all making 500-900K.

    It’s like the NBA. Put three superstars together with nine Washington Generals and hope for the best.

  104. Raul Says:

    I actually want Pujols to leave.
    Because I hate the Cardinals.

  105. Raul Says:

    Mets traded Angel Pagan to San Francisco for Andres Torres and Ramon Martinez.
    They also signed Jon Rauch and Frank Francisco.

  106. Raul Says:

    Congratulations to Thomas Hearns on getting elected to the Boxing Hall of Fame.

    Of Hearns’ 61 career victories, 48 were by knockout.

  107. Raul Says:

    Reports out of New York are that the Yankees have made it clear that AJ Burnett is available.

  108. Cameron Says:

    Ramirez, Francisco, and Rauch give the Mets a bullpen, Pagan seems to fill that “WE NEED A CENTERFIELDER” boner that Sabean’s been on about. So that outfield’s probably looking like Belt-Pagan-Cabrera right now.

    And who the fuck wants AJ Burnett? I’d say a Zambrano-Burnett contract swap, but even then I don’t think that’d happen.

  109. Cameron Says:

    “The team has never had a payroll higher than 60 million and now they are going to spend half that potentially on just Albert and Bell?”

    And Reyes, don’t forget Reyes.

  110. Raul Says:

    That’s a weak-hitting outfield in San Fran.

  111. Cameron Says:

    Sabean’s praying for ‘10 Pagan and ‘11 Melky. If he gets them, then it’s a bargain outfield. But you and I both know that’s not gonna work.

  112. Cameron Says:

    Oakland and the Yankees are talking Gio Gonzalez. Word is Gio for Montero and either Banuelos or Betances.

    …Billy, none of these guys are that good.

  113. Raul Says:

    Neither is Gio with all those walks.

  114. Cameron Says:

    Still better than all three on the Yankees side put together IMO.

    Also, playing NBA 2K12 against the Pistons. One of the guys is playing through a broken nose, so he’s wearing a facegaurd. I just thought that was a nice little touch. Don’t see a lot of games focus on details like that.

  115. Raul Says:

    Montero is 22
    Betances is 23
    Banuelos is 20

    Are they studs?

    But you don’t give up on kids that young, either.

  116. Bob Says:

    Cameron, the Piston with a broken nose was Laimbeer.

  117. John Says:

    For those of you with twitter, I highly recommend following @MysteryTeam … good for a laugh.

  118. Bob Says:

    John, did you get my e-mail from Sunday?

  119. Chuck Says:

    From now on, Tim McCarver’s name will be preceeded by the words, “Hall of Famer.”

  120. John Says:

    Preceded by the words “Hall of Famer,” based not on playing skills as good as they were not great, but rather on broadcast ability in the booth of the television network FOX for not only his work in the post-season, but also considering his work on FOX game of the week, Tim McCarver’s name will now be.

  121. Raul Says:

    McCarver’s in?

    Crap. Now they have to put Raines in.

  122. Chuck Says:

    He’s in as an announcer, Raul.

  123. Raul Says:

    Better get in front of that mic, Rock…

  124. Raul Says:

    Johnny Bench is 64 today.
    Tino Martinez is 44.
    Eric Chavez is 34.

  125. Chuck Says:

    My buddy Ozzie Virgil Jr turns 55 today.

    So does Larry Bird, if anyone cares.

  126. Bob Says:

    Egg on my face. The Yankees won the right to Nakajima. There is your Jeter replacement.

  127. John Says:


  128. Bob Says:

    How true. My bad.

  129. Chuck Says:

    “The Yankees won the right to Nakajima.”


  130. Bob Says:

    Your team has 30 days to sign him.

  131. Raul Says:

    Who is Naka…Naje…NotGonnaWorkHereAnymore…

  132. Brautigan Says:

    Hey Chuck, is Ozzie Virgil Sr. still in the Phoenix area? I used to see him every once in a while about 12 years ago.

  133. Chuck Says:

    I don’t think so, last Jr. told me he was the director of the Tigers training facility in the Dominican Republic.

  134. Bob Says:

    Raul, a Japanese shortstop. The Yanks won the right to barter with him.

  135. Brautigan Says:

    That’s too bad. I have a 1958 Topps that needs his signature. I haven’t had much luck sending autograph requests out of country. They usually don’t come back, although I lucked out with Juan Pizarro, which is pretty cool since he was one of my favorite players when I was a kid.

  136. Bob Says:

    Jerry Sandusky gor arrested again.

  137. Chuck Says:

    I might be able to track down an address for you on him.

  138. Brautigan Says:

    I’m pretty sure more victims will come out as time goes on. It is a slight bit easier knowing you’re not the only person this man has perpetuated his crimes upon.

  139. Brautigan Says:

    Chuck: That would be very kind of you.

  140. Brautigan Says:

    Oh, and I found two more Jack Heidemann cards. I think I forgot I had them. I think I pulled them out for a previous trip to Arizona and I didn’t run into him.

    I did run into Paul Thormodsgard at Twin Peaks brewery. His GF didn’t believe I knew who he was and I blew her away by giving her stats. Of course, I bring my Thormodsgard cards with me when I come down there, but I haven’t run into him again. I had better luck with Jimmy Piersall.

  141. Cameron Says:

    Looks like St. Louis has thrown in the tenth year that Albert wanted, so both offers stand at roughly 10/220. At this point, it’s just a bidding war. Word is he’ll probably make his decision tonight.

    In other words, San Diego acquires Huston Street for a PTBNL and Erik Bedard is now a Pirate.

  142. Raul Says:

    Pujols goes back to STL.

    With news coming out that the Marlins are heavily pursuing Buehrle and Wilson, I think it’s a signal that Pujols’ delay in making a decision means he’s leaning towards going back and the Marlins don’t want to get stuck with nothing.

    Pujols was waiting for STL to match and it looks like they did. He’s not going anywhere.

  143. Raul Says:

    I kinda understand these players’ reluctance to switch positions, but then again, I kinda don’t.

    Makes me wonder what the old timers have to say about it.

    Did Ernie Banks and Rod Carew and Robin Yount complain?
    Come on, Hanley. Get a grip.

    Actually, maybe you guys can ask Yount about it in the Spring…

  144. Bob Says:

    As Chuck said 2-3 days ago, most people anticipated Pujols returning to St. Louis and surpassing Musial as the best-ever Cardinal.

  145. Cameron Says:

    The idea is Pujols is talking to Miami as much as possible to drive up the price, then goes right back to the Cards so they can counter.

    And Loria’s reaching for Prince Fielder’s phone number as we speak.

  146. Raul Says:

    Pujols is conceivably on a path to being one of the most valuable 4 or 5 players in the history of the game.

    Who cares about being the best Cardinal?
    Then again, Musial’s probably in the top 10 so…perhaps it’s a valid comparison.

  147. Raul Says:

    So it looks like the Marlins are effectively out of the Pujols sweepstakes, though they stopped short of pulling their offer.

    I think they are going to sign Buehrle.

    And Hanley Ramirez was so ticked off he requested a re-structing of his contract and the Marlins are looking to trade him — potentially in a move that frees up dollars to pursue Prince Fielder.

  148. Cameron Says:

    Word from the office is Hanley isn’t asking for a restructuring and Hanley’s staying.

    Also, they’re the idiots who offered CJ Wilson the six years.

  149. Raul Says:

    LOL, how many different “mystery” teams is this now for CJ Wilson?

  150. John Says:

    “One advantage of the reserve clause: every winter meeting tweet read “Break: [Player X is re-signing with his team”

    -Old Hoss

  151. Raul Says:

    Ha! @ John

  152. John Says:

    Buerhle to Marlins, 4/58. Still somehow in on Fielder/Wilson; out on Pujols but haven’t gone so far as to officially withdraw offer.

  153. Chuck Says:

    Marlins pulled offer to Wilson.

    Looks like the Angels for him, which is where I figured he’d end up anyway. Just using FL to jack the price.

  154. Cameron Says:

    Am I the only one who thinks Miami seriously overpaid for Buerhle? Don’t get me wrong, he eats innings like no other, but he’s not the pitcher he used to be and I’m not sure he was ever worth fifteen a year. Guy isn’t exactly an overpowering outs machine. His job is to lead the league in IP and provide decent pitching.

  155. Raul Says:

    Question is, what does Buehrle’s contract mean for Edwin Jackson?

  156. John Says:

    I know this is going to trigger a “back in my day” rant but…

    In this day and age, getting a guy who consistently – I mean, like clockwork – gives you 200 IP of solid-to-good innings has about a going-rate of 15M.

  157. John Says:

    I haven’t heard a damn thing about Edwin Jackson.

    Considering he’s been a starting pitcher for like 3 times as long as CJ Wilson, you’d think there’d be at least whispers about him.

  158. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but it’s 200 IP of about 3.80 ball and 100 Ks. That IP isn’t easy to find, but those results are. Erik Bedard signed for less than three times that and he’s shown to be better than that when healthy. Also, he’s shown he can be healthy now.

    I just don’t see how Mark is worth fifteen. I have a hard time seeing him being worth ten.

  159. Bob Says:

    Let’s see. Assuming Pujols is off the market, Ortiz stays a Sox, and overlooking Japan who is left?
    In no specific order after Prince
    1. Fielder
    2. Madson
    3. Jackson
    4. Oswalt

    We should start hearing stuff about Jackson 5 minutes after the Rule 5 draft. At the latest.

  160. Raul Says:

    At the end of it, will the Pujols contract prove to be as bad as Alex Rodriguez’s contract is looking now?

  161. Cameron Says:

    According to MLBTR’s Top 50 Free Agents, the best left (assuming Pujols, Ortiz, and Darvish aren’t on the list)…

    1 – Prince Fielder
    2 – CJ Wilson
    3 – Edwin Jackson
    4 – Jimmy Rollins
    5 – Aramis Ramirez

    My personal opinion?

    1 – Prince Fielder
    2 – CJ Wilson
    3 – Aramis Ramirez
    4 – Carlos Beltran
    5 – Edwin Jackson

  162. Raul Says:

    200 million is a lot different to the Yankees than it is to the Cardinals.

  163. Cameron Says:

    Raul, I think the reason no one’s offering Pujols the 10/300 he said he was looking for at the start of the offseason was that A-Rod was the last 10/300.

  164. Chuck Says:

    So, John, did you drop the 275 bones to purchase one share of Packers stock?

  165. Chuck Says:

    I hope Fielder signs with Miami, just to see him in that orange jersey.

    He’ll look like a pinata.

  166. Cameron Says:

    Oh, the weekend home jerseys?

    …Yeah, I can’t stop laughing now that I think about it.

  167. John Says:

    @164, actually I’m already an owner from the 1997 stock sale (present from my parents).

    LOL @165

  168. Cameron Says:

    John, surprising bit of news. Seems Milwaukee’s entering the Aramis Ramirez sweepstakes.

  169. John Says:

    Yeah, that’s been the word for a few days now.

    I think their first choice is Rollins, but it just doesn’t look like that’s gonna happen.

    Aramis can probably be had for a 3-year deal. Problem is that FA SS’s are running low and I cannot endure more Yuni.

  170. Raul Says:

    How about the Brewers take a cardboard cutout of Cal Ripken Jr and place it at the shortstop position. And leave it there.

    And see how many balls hit the cardboard cutout.
    Then compare that with how many times Yuniesky Betancourt fielded balls his way in 2011.

    I think it would be quite productive.

  171. Cameron Says:

    The cutout would be a better defender than Yuni.

    Also, Miami is officially out of the running for Pujols. …But now reports are there are three offers out there of 200+ for Albert. St. Louis, obviously, Anaheim’s been talking… Chicago, maybe?

  172. Cameron Says:

    And Hiroyuki Nakajima’s posting bid was won by the Yankees for… Two million bucks.

    Jeez, way to bring in the bucks, Hiroyuki.

  173. Cameron Says:

    Anaheim’s looking to sign LaTroy Hawkins. Checking out his performance last season, he didn’t do too bad. Granted, it was 48.1 innings, but sub 2.50 isn’t a bad ERA to post, especially for a guy his age.

  174. Raul Says:

    Hawkins wants to be the Mike Morgan of his era. What team hasn’t that guy played for?

  175. Cameron Says:

    22 of them at the moment. He’s got a lot of ground to catch up to Rickey, Morgan, and Stairs.

  176. Raul Says:

    It’s nearly 11pm Eastern Time and the Marlins are out.

    What the fuck is Pujols waiting for? Everyone knows you’re going to STL.

    Just do it already.

  177. Cameron Says:

    Talking to Anaheim and Chicago to see if he can’t squeeze a few more bucks out of the Cards?

  178. John Says:

    I just had a crazy idea.

    If I was Doug Melvin, I think I would supplement whatever the Angels are offering Pujols with something like 50M over 10 years just to get Pujols the FUCK out of the division.

    In other news, with each passing minute, it looks like Melvin’s gamble – offering K-Rod arbitration – is going to backfire horribly. The Brewers are going to end up with the most expensive set-up man in baseball history, beating out the Yankees and Rafael Soriano.

  179. John Says:

    K-Rod has indeed accepted the Brewers arbitration offer. Good luck chasing Mariano’s record in the eighth inning dude.

  180. Cameron Says:

    Wait, the Brewers offered arb? Why? They wouldn’t get compensation if they lost him.

  181. John Says:

    Yeah they would’ve. That was the whole gamble.

    Since the Brewers paid him 4M on a declined option earlier in the month, K-Rod might end up making more than if the Brewers had just picked up that monstrous 17.5M dollar option that Melvin worked (rather shrewdly) to eliminate.

  182. Cameron Says:

    Not under the new CBA, ranked free agent relievers don’t offer compensation.

  183. John Says:

    I don’t think that applies for this off-season, since the CBA was completed after arbitration offers were made.

    Melvin’s not an idiot, he was clearly trying to get something out of this and it backfired horribly.

    Honestly, I think he made the right call. Maybe he underestimated how the saturated closer’s market would be. I dunno. But it seemed like there was no way he’d accept a 1-year offer, especially given the bitch-fest he gave about wanting to close.

    John Axford blew a save on opening day, another 1 week later, and then again on Game 5 of the NLDS.

    In between, he blew zero saves. He still has a regular season streak of 44 in a row, or something like that.

    Dear K-Rod – you’re on the verge of 300 saves. Hope you like being stuck there.

  184. Cameron Says:

    No, it was retroactive to this offseason to all signings post CBA-ratification. So every free agent reliever not named Papelbon.

  185. Cameron Says:

    And John, there’s a bright side to this argument. The lack of saves that K-Rod’s been posting recently really hurts his arb case. Arbitrators basically look at counting stats in the hearings that are relevant to their position.

    IE, the less saves a reliever posts, the less he makes.

  186. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 170 – LOL!

  187. John Says:

    @185, the very least he can make, I think, is 80% of what he made the year before, and generally he gets a slight raise if he plays well, which he did.

  188. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 180 – I don’t know where K-Rod ranked but the Brewers likely would have gotten compensation.

    Madson was the #1 ranked FA closer and if he signs with a team that had a top 15 record in Baseball in ‘11 the Phillies get a 1st round pick in addition to a sandwhich pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds for him because he declined their arbitration offer.

  189. Cameron Says:

    Decided to play the NBA’s Greatest mode in NBA 2K12 again. I learned something pretty interesting. My basketball memories as a kid were mostly from the late 90s, thus my memory of Hakeem “The Dream” Olajuwon is a little fuzzy. I mostly caught the tail end of his career.

    Was this guy capable on offense at all or was he there solely because he was a gigantic African beast who blocked everything that got thrown at him? Because I can’t make shots for shit with him, and I’m a good shot in this game.

  190. Lefty33 Says:

    “Was this guy capable on offense at all”

    He’s 9th on the all-time scoring list.

    That speaks for itself.

  191. John Says:

    Oh. Shit.

  192. Jim Says:

    Word out of Anaheim has Pujols signing with the Angels for 10/250M or 260M. Some team finally offered a deal as bad as ARod’s. When the Cards sign Albert to a long term deal, they got the bargain of the century, so an overpay by them made some sense as it was pay for past performance in StL. But the Angels’ are now paying Albert for his StL years.

    My guess is that in 4 years we’ll be noting how Pujols’ numbers have dropped off and how he is often injured.

  193. Jim Says:

    Hakeem was a dominant offensive player, but he was very much back to the basket, low post center. Quick feet, good hands and the ability to elevate, atop being enormously strong. His offensive game was short jumpers, hook shots and scoring off the offensive glass. He did have the ability to step outside, but that wasn’t his core game, but it did make him devastating.

    If you’re playing him the way most teams use centers today, high post, 15+ foot jumpers to keep the defense honest and the lane clear so the guards and small forwards can penetrate, then you’re using him incorrectly. Dwight Howard is probably the closest current player to Hakeem.

  194. Brautigan Says:

    Thank goodness the Cardinals didn’t sign Pujols to that contract. That will be a franchise killer (see Texas Rangers circa 2001).

  195. Brautigan Says:

    Jim: Spot on from what I remember of Hakeem.

    Hakeem (and Sam Bowie) were drafted ahead of Michael Jordan, if that gives you any idea of how good Hakeem was.

  196. Jim Says:

    Jordan was the better player, but it is hard to say that Houston taking Hakeem was a mistake as Portland taking Bowie was. Hakeem had a long and great career. I was living in Minneapolis when Hakeem was still at the top of his game, though in part through guile as much as athleticism.

    From a sports point of view, it was very enjoyable to head down to the Target Center and watch him when the Rockets came to town. Often I went by myself and it was easy to get a good seat as a single and one night sat about 5 rows back, behind the basket. Hakeem was impressive.

  197. JohnBowen Says:

    “Thank goodness the Cardinals didn’t sign Pujols to that contract. That will be a franchise killer (see Texas Rangers circa 2001).”

    Hey now, at the end of ARod’s 10 years, he had finally helped the Rangers win a pennant!

  198. Bob Says:

    Guess I will put this here. terry Francona is going to co-author a book on his Red Sox career. The other author??? Dan Shaughnessy.

  199. Chuck Says:

    “Jordan was the better player, but it is hard to say that Houston taking Hakeem was a mistake as Portland taking Bowie was.”

    Bowie wasn’t Greg Oden, it’s easy to criticize when a pick doesn’t work out, but when it’s because of injury, that’s different than just being a stiff.

    If Bowie hadn’t gotten hurt, no one would have heard of Hakeem.

  200. Raul Says:


    The Angels will certainly be competitive. There is a lot of criticism on this contract for Pujols, but it disgusts me that people are acting like this wouldn’t have been a huge contract for whatever team he ultimately signed with — whether it was Anaheim or St. Louis or whomever. Fact is, he was going to clear 200 million, and that’s a lot to bear for anyone.

    What is clear is that Anaheim is a division favorite for 2012.
    A rotation that leads with Jered Weaver, Dan Haren and CJ Wilson is bound to be in a lot of games.

    The Angels have needs elsewhere, but those needs are largely hurt by the contract of Vernon Wells, not Albert Pujols.

  201. Brautigan Says:

    You know, the Pujols contract is reason #1 I have little faith in the people who run their organizations.

    Johnny Mize was traded to the Giants by the Cardinals at age 28 because Branch Rickey surmised Mize would be moving past his prime.

    Pujols will be 32 when he starts his 10 year contract. Bite me if you think he’ll be earning his jack at age 38.

  202. John Says:

    @201, wasn’t Rickey very wrong though?

  203. Brautigan Says:

    Yes, he was. But I guarantee you, I won’t be (wrong about this).

    I guess another point I want to make is, do you all recall how much budget slashing Texas went through after it became clear that Arod wasn’t going to take them to the promise land? I do. I recall scouts being cut, and there was a belt tightening routine all up and down the franchise.

    In about 4-5 years, you’ll see the Angles make a large sucking sound. And I am eternally grateful it won’t be coming from St. Louis.

  204. Cameron Says:

    I like Albert to the AL. It (and I know a few people will be pissed off by this) but it’ll make him effective for longer with the DH in play.

  205. Raul Says:

    Don’t act like you’re happy the Cardinals aren’t on the hook for Pujols, Braut.

    The entire time you know you were praying he’d stay with the Birds.

  206. Jim Says:

    @199 another unsupported opinion that we’re to accept. yawn.

  207. Cameron Says:

    Finally finished the mode. There’s some interesting notes I took away from playing them using the playstyle of the day.

    Point guards now ain’t got shit on the guys in the past. Be it as recent as John Stockton who could run an offense with his eyes closed (granted, dishing assists to Karl Malone is an easy job, but he’s a hell of a player), Isiah Thomas (very aggressive. He can run an offense and lead it simultaneously, love him), or as far back as Jerry West and Oscar Robertson (holy shit, what CAN’T these guys do?) it’s ridiculous to see this generation of point guards claimed to be some of the greatest ever. Sure there’s good individual guards like Chris Paul and especially Derrick Rose, but there isn’t the same level of skill if you ask me, just raw talent.

    Forwards then and forwards now? Two totally different things. While a lot of guys look to guards now, there’s still a handful of forwards today that people think are elite players like James, Durant, and Anthony. In comparison to the league, I’m hard-pressed to disagree, but compare them to older forwards like Bird, Erving, and even Pippen and say they were as skilled, you’re out of your mind. These guys were smart, could shoot and constantly didn’t need to attack the basket or land threes, and would make a guy lose teeth if some dumb bastard tried to score on them.

    And the biggest change I’ve seen is in the big men. Holy fuck. You had guys like Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar who could score at will but were also defensive walls. Even Dwight Howard, a guy I love watching play, just doesn’t have the same level of play. They may be better physical specimens, but they aren’t as well trained. Big men today aren’t the same. Bill Russell didn’t need to be flashy to be good, he just was (complete package for a center. Great defender, good scorer). Even guys from roughly my time as a kid were better. I don’t think I can in good conscience say there’s a 4-man with the defensive ability of Olajuwon or the offensive ability of Malone.

    One last guy I wanna mention, and I probably could’ve mentioned him in that last paragraph, is Patrick Ewing. Man I would’ve loved to see this guy play. He’s got the defensive ability to have 3 BPG, rebounds like a motherfucker, and can score at will. He had it all.

  208. Mike Felber Says:

    There is a lot of truth to that rant Cameron, but it can be overstated. Russell was not a very good shooter-44% is not very good for a Center-his efficiency rating, tellingly, barely cracks the top 100. Ewing was not quite at the level of the others. I do not like the macho crap of the old guys knocking out other’s teeth. It was not literally true-they would have lost teeth themselves-they were scored on too. Erving once throttled Bird though. Pippen even had (an exaggerated) reputation for being soft at crunch times, but he IS only 109 all time in PER. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency_%28basketball%29 Detroit used to give him migraines. They were dirty, & Chuck is right that Stockton was no Mormon Choir boy.

    Only thing overstated for The Dream is his strength-which was still decent. He fought mightily during Ramadan-imagine a 7′ center playing full tilt near the end of an 18 hour fast-for a month! He was tough. Watch some youtube videos, of him getting the best of Robinson (he did not always), & before Shaq hit his very peak, in the mid ’90’s he was totally schooled by Hakeem.

    He & Robinson were clearly better than Ewing. Robinson had athleticism on the level of any modern big man, very fast, & Hakeem was very skilled & agile. Howard has limitations, but he was 2nd to James in PER last year. He is like a baby Shaq in that his shooting %, rebounds & physical dominance make him amongst the very best, despite his limitations.

    Ted Williams could “only” hit too, but when you do one or a couple of things that have great impact extremely well, you can be as or more valuable than virtually anyone else, no matter how well rounded.

  209. Raul Says:

    PER and WAR

    Jesus Christ…

  210. Cameron Says:

    I didn’t really remember Robinson, but one of my games playing as the 97-98 Jazz (Stockton and Malone both used 97-98 for their years in the mode) against the Twin Towers in San Antonio. Trying to score on Robinson and Duncan? not fun, even when you’ve got Stockton and Malone.

  211. Cameron Says:

    I did not know this, but Allen Iverson has five kids and seven grandkids.

    …He’s 36. How the fuck do you have seven grandkids when you’re thirty-six?

  212. brautigan Says:

    Too bad your game doesn’t have the 1977-78 version of Truck Robinson. That guy was 6′7 and Truck was an apt nickname.

    I saw the second time Sam Bowie broke his leg. The guy didn’t have gaudy numbers, but he really knew how to play the game (ala Bill Walton). He was so good defensively, it allowed the other Blazers to take risks on the perimeter. Like Oden, it is a case of “what could have been”.

  213. Cameron Says:

    Wait, I accidentally cross-read shit because I had an article of Phil Jackson up at the same time. I uh… Why doesn’t DC have a delete button? :’(

  214. brautigan Says:

    Raul: I am a long term thinker. (Maybe that is why I watch so much minor league ball.) The Angels just hit the panic mode and it may pay off in a pennant or two, but the Cardinals will be in much better shape in three years.

  215. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, want to actually give a reason why you think PER is invalid, or misleading or incomplete? Accepting every advanced stat as Gospel or suitable to establish any argument is credulous & foolish. You have seen me-if you have paid any attention-express many doubts & have questions about aspects of WAR, discrepancies between versions of same, fielding metrics, park factors, etc.

    Likewise, rejecting any advanced stat absent reason, analysis, or argument is a reactionary form of no-nothingism (sic). So please look into ER & PER (the latter takes into account the team context/style & player role in it). Also note it is calculated per 48 minutes & per game) & tell me if & why you have any reason to doubt it is not an excellent measure of overall contribution towards victory.

    Note nobody said it perfectly describes every nuance of a player’s contributions. Yet “intangibles”, like the “grit factor”, are consistently found to be wrong or unidentifiable. And when you look closely at “clutch” play over a significant sample size, it is rarely present.

    I am sure there are outlier exceptions to ER & PER giving a very good account to what a player actually adds-recall you also need to consider peak value vs. career, & things like a long career watering it down. Bill Russel must be one of them: I seriously doubt he is only around #99 in Pro basketball history in how good he was, & he must have added some intangibles.

    Though I believe that his team contexts helped him seem even greater than he was too. Other great centers, Shaq, Robinson, Chamberlain-come out near the very top all time. Hakeem a bit below them. I am from New York, but Ewing is a notch below all of them. Is that the perception of fellow (compared to John & Cameron) grey beards here?

  216. Cameron Says:

    I think Russell might have been helped because if you compare him to the rest of the NBA in the time he dominated, the dude was a physical freak. Wasn’t hard to outplay the guys back then.

    And Mike, I wish I could’ve seen Ewing because he was as good, but because he’s a player who excites me. He’s a highly physical blocker, he can attack the basket, he’s a good outside shooter for a center, he just seems like a guy that’ll be fun to watch play. It’s the same reason I like athletes like Ndamukong Suh or older guys like Nigerian Nightmare Okoye. They may not be the best players, but they’re exciting to watch.

  217. Mike Felber Says:

    I Agree with this.


  218. Mike Felber Says:

    Fair enough on all counts Cam.

  219. Cameron Says:

    Thanks Mike. Glad to see someone understands the difference between “players I think are good” and “players I like to watch”. Do I think Dwight Howard is a good center? …I think he’s a great athlete who happens to play center. The guy’s just fun to watch, though, that’s the main reason I like him. There’s a difference between good and exciting to me. For baseball, it’s the power pitcher who gives up a lot of walks or low batting average sluggers. Were guys like Mark McGwire great? No. Is a closer like Carlos Marmol someone you necessarily want on your team? Not really. Are six hundred foot homers and three digit fastballs fun to watch? You fuckin’ bet.

  220. Mike Felber Says:

    Well…Slight difference of opinion there Cam. Besides the regrettable PED use & lies, Bog Mac was great, as is Howard. Now they are incomplete: one a 1 trick pony-but decent glove & frew walks-the other a superb athlete lacking great craft & refinement.

    But my point was that with extreme talent, even in a narrow area, that can be enough to be amongst the best in any sport.

    I know you did not mean it literally, but the only one who might have hit a legit 600′ HR is Ruth, in Wilkes Barre, after the ‘26 World Series. Also longest unobstructed & in ML park, 585′. Mantle is listed next at 551′, then a few @ 540′. And these are under any weather conditions. Foxx rated #2 in distance though, then Mantle, Howard, Allen…Wood bats only of course.

    Reviews: http://www.amazon.com/Baseballs-Ultimate-Power-All-Time-Greatest/dp/1599215446

  221. Chuck Says:

    Does anyone believe Texas is in the last two WS with ARod?

    Does anyone believe the Yankees will get back anytime soon with ARod?

    The Angels have a four or five year window of success now.

    Unfortunately, they gave Pujols ten years.

    With a full no-trade.

    Good luck with that.

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