Hall of Fame Discussion – 2012

by JohnBowen

On January 9, the Major League Hall of Fame inductees for the Class of 2012 will be announced.

This is always a hot topic here on Dugout Central, so I figured it was high time to get the thread rolling.

My ballot:

1. Barry Larkin (Cincinnati Reds, 1986-2004)

Larkin was in a class by himself among National League shortstops during his playing career, and might very well find himself being inducted alone come this summer. The mainstay for Cincinnati for almost two decades, Larkin got 52% in 2010 and jumped to 62% in 2011. As the strongest new player to the ballot is Bernie Williams, Larkin should find himself with a big enough of a boost to find his way in, over the 75% margin. The 1995 NL MVP, Larkin hit .295 with an excellent .371 on-base percentage from the shortstop position, while also contributing 379 stolen bases at an 83% success clip.

2. Jeff Bagwell (Houston Astros, 1991-2005)

Jeff Bagwell is conservatively a top-10 first baseman of all-time, and probably in the top-5, decisively behind only Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, and Albert Pujols. His career .408 on-base percentage and .540 slugging percentage both rank favorably among some of the all-time greats, and his 80 WAR rank among the top-40 for position players. For WAR-haters, he is one of just 31 players to ever amass both 1500 RBI and 1500 runs scored, doing so in a 15-year career (essentially averaging 100 of each, year-in and year-out). Bagwell only got 42% of the vote last year, largely because he played in the 1990’s and had big muscles.

3. Alan Trammell (Detroit Tigers, 1977-1996)

Alan Trammell is one of those guys who didn’t “feel” like a Hall of Famer, largely because he wasn’t exceptional at any one thing. If he had hit over .300 for his career with north of 3000 hits but with about the worst range of any shortstop ever, he would be in, no problem (and rightfully so); ditto if he was a spectacular defensive shortstop with an 87 career OPS+ (again, rightfully so). But because he was a very good hitter with a very good glove and all-around outstanding baseball skills with zero deficiencies, he has yet to eclipse a quarter of the vote. A player’s whole contributions should be considered, not just the ones that stand out to us. Alan Trammell – who should have won the 1987 MVP – has a career .285/.352/.415 line, one that compares solidly with, say Robin Yount (.285/.342/.430) and Cal Ripken Jr. (.276/.340/.447), both of whom were contemporary shortstops who made the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. With just five years left on the ballot, he’s the neglected star that we should be focused on electing.

4. Tim Raines (Monteal Expos, Chicago White Sox, and others, 1979-2002)

Tim Raines has been cover ad nausea-um on this website. The pro’s: he reached base at an extremely high clip (.385) over the course of 10,000 plate appearances during which time he stole the 5th highest number of bases of all-time (808) at a clip exceeded by no one who’s even in the top 150 for swipes. These factors made him a prolific run-scoring machine, and one of the top-3 lead-off hitters to ever play the game. The con’s? He stopped being a good player in his late 30’s and early 40’s, becoming the first player EVER to be like this.

5. Mark McGwire (Oakland A’s and St. Louis Cardinals, 1986-2001)

Mark McGwire’s Hall-of-Fame candidacy comes down to how you feel about steroids. I believe in simply judging a player within the context of the era that he played; in the steroid era, when PED use was rampant, PED-user Mark McGwire amassed a 162 OPS+, 12th all-time. Relative to his peers, McGwire was the 12th most dominant hitter, ever, on a per-at-bat basis (further “enhanced” by the fact that every at-bat he had was an event in the late 1990’s). The way I see it, McGwire didn’t cheat his competition, he simply cheated past players…and I think we, as baseball fans, are savy enough to know that his 70 home run season of 1998 must be judged differently from Ruth’s 1927 or Maris’s 1961. If you feel that steroid users should be barred, obviously McGwire is a no.

Close, but no cigar:

Edgar Martinez – I’m not going to be pre-disposed against all DH’s forever, but if you’re only coming to bat 4 times a game, I needed to see a slightly longer body of work. The rate stats were outstanding, but the lack of some truly big-time counting statistics (2247 hits, 1219 runs scored, 1261 RBI, 309 HR), while not necessarily indicative of his overall abilities  certainly speak to a lack of longevity.

Larry Walker - Fantastic all-around player, but he was too reliant on Coor’s Field to put him over the hump. Walker hit a solid .278/.370/.495 on the road, but that wouldn’t have gotten it done within the context of the era in which he played.

Rafael Palmeiro – He’ll never get in (steroids), but for me the reason lies in the lack of a dominant peak. He had just four seasons above  a 5 WAR (aka all-star level) in his career.

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282 Responses to “Hall of Fame Discussion – 2012”

  1. Chuck Says:

    How can you immediately discount Palmeiro for steriod use, but vote for McGwire.

    “How you feel” about steriods isn’t interchangeable.

    You vote for everyone, or no one.

  2. JohnBowen Says:


    Read the article before you comment.

  3. Brautigan Says:

    This “feels” like a weak field. None of these guys ever made me think “Hall of Fame” when they were playing. While all were very good, they just don’t muster that feeling of dominance when they played.

  4. JohnBowen Says:

    Well that makes sense.

    Whenever you have a no-doubt-about-it player (someone we can all agree on), he gets in on the first ballot.

    Returning players obviously don’t have that level of dominance, and there just aren’t any newcomers that are even close to worthy.

    That said, I’d probably throw a token vote at Jeromy Burnitz because I got to stand next to him on the field for the National Anthem on a Sunday day game in 1998 against the Cardinals (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/MIL/MIL199809200.shtml) and he was really cool and signed my ball and stuff (obviously, he kinda had to).

    But more to the point, no one who is new to the ballot is even close to worthy.

  5. Brautigan Says:

    Burnitz was always pretty cool with us baseball stalkers (ie., autograph seekers). I always like the guy.

  6. Lefty33 Says:

    Nice article John.

    You’re about as fair and balanced as Fox.

  7. Mike Felber Says:

    No, he just sees things differently than you.

    I would refer consistently to each player’s peak value, & quality of defense. I agree with most all choices-i would pick Martinez, but depending on how you view longevity & how much you ding the DH, I can see the case against him. Big Mac-I would admit users who admitted it & apologized IF it is clear that they were good & healthy enough to put up HOF #s without PEDs. He fails at least the 2nd test. Also, he DID cheat many players who were clean when he played. We have no good idea if most players in ANY era cheated at some time of their career, & even if so, there is no reason to think MOST players were cheating at any one time. Therefor he had a large, illegal, unethical advantage over many. Without drugs & expansion, I do not see him having the season HR record. Goes double for Sosa, who had a favorable home park.

    Larkin’s yearly GP make it a close but in for me, & I always though Palmiero should have been in IF he was clean. But his peak was flat enough that at least it is close. Tainted raw #s in that era must not be considered as very meaningful.

  8. Cameron Says:

    Protip: Computer repair fucking sucks. Need to do it? Clear your day.

  9. Chuck Says:

    “I would refer consistently to each player’s peak value, & quality of defense. I agree with most all choices-i would pick Martinez..”

    So you support a player with questionable peak value and who was a lousy defensive player (Raines) and a player with a better peak who didn’t play defense at all?

    Back to High Heat Stats for you, Mr. Felber.

    And no stopping at Chez Dumpster on the way.

  10. Cameron Says:


    Not a full-ballot kind of year, man.

  11. Mike Felber Says:

    Lol, pretty clever Chuck! But I’ll be hear to, & if you are very good, maybe I will bring some new blood in.

    But Raines had an excellent peak value. i am aware of your(overstated, but with some truth to it)lack of consanguinity re: Raines continued late career dominance. Though even all time greats like mantle & Foxx were mostly done by 33 (Hornsby pretty much too). No, i am not saying Raines was nearly that good. but you are really stretching it, I do not know how you can claim it, to say Raines had borderline or worse HOF peak value. he created much value with bat & top level base swiping.

    And i know you have some unorthodox opinions on defensive value, but “lousy” at defense? Sure, defensive metrics are imperfect, but what stat supports that? Does anyone else here, even Raines haters (it is alliterative, I understand you may just not want him for the Hall, if anyone else is here from that camp) believe anecdotal that Raines was a terrible glovesman?

    I do not know super well, so I ask, though i doubt, say, that he could have been Jeter-bad. Because yes, the significant discrepancy in range means that even if Raines booted more balls, & looked worse-he got to many Jeter could not touch.

    That you like Jeter better than most, including defensively, is just a coincidental thing. It is a good example.

    Martinez we went over in detail. Yes, handicap a guy who does not play defense MOST of his career. But it is a real role where it is clearly possible to create HOF value if you are a great hitter. Not only hard to get into game only batting. If 147 OPS + is not enough for his AB for you with his AB, then increase either one- at some point it becomes clear to all that a guy did enough. i just put that level lower than you-the best f/t DH ever-because you can penalize a guy so much that you do not reflect his real value.

    But thanks, i have so much stuff cooling on my fire escape now, no need for new supplies! ;-)

  12. Chuck Says:

    “But I’ll be hear to, & if you are very good, maybe I will bring some new blood in.”

    As stated previously, I am currently in the stage of semi-retirement, with full blown not too far in the distant future.

    If you’d notice, I haven’t written anything in awhile, and my AFL stuff is still in long-hand note form in a binder laying on top of my file cabinet.

    The only original piece I’ve written in the last six weeks was a paid piece I signed a contract for back in August.

    As you guys know, writing is more of a mental “want to” than a physical “need to”. And, lately, I just haven’t wanted to.

    I don’t have the time to write articles, and I don’t have the desire to argue about Tim Raines or steriods anymore.

    When life starts throwing curveballs you can either go down swinging or spend extra time in the cage preparing, which is what I’ve been doing of late.

    Things WILL get better, hopefully sooner rather than later, but I really don’t control it, so I’ll just roll with it until it does.

    Either way, time is starting to not be my friend, and as it stands now I expect to be internet/blog free by the end of January at the latest.

    So, Mike, if you want to “re-recruit” John Q or any of his new friends, feel free.

    Like MacArthur said, “I shall return”, and I have my fingers crossed there’s something to return to.

  13. Bob Says:

    The Padres acquired Carlos Quentin for Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez. While I have had a couple of beers, I am still confident the Padres win here.

  14. Mike Felber Says:

    Thanks for your honesty & courage Chuck. You are a stand up guy.

    We covered some things ad nauseum, yet there is so much else, largely current developments, that can reinvigorate things. When Andy wrote me an E-mail after my initial inquiries,he said i could ask for new audience & writers, but it was a “would not stop you” polite answer, because he wanted to make sure the new Blog was up to snuff. So of course I told him I would wait & ask again later.

    Since they have had greater success than previously quickly, here is my new inquiry to solicit participation now.

    Happy New Year!!

  15. Cameron Says:

    If it weren’t Castro, I’d say San Diego really won this trade… But I’ll reserve judgement for now. Castro’s got potential.

  16. Chuck Says:

    Carlos Quentin sucks.

    If anyone’s a product of his home park, it’s him.

    In Petco, he’ll hit about 14 a year, and allow 30 because of his defense and the extra ground to cover.

    Josh Byrnes is a fucking moron.

  17. Bob Says:

    We shall see. I think he might move him in July for something else if the Padres are out of it. Happy New Year, as I have to celebrate with my extended family. Oh Joy!!!!!

  18. Chuck Says:


    I certainly respect and appreciate your efforts, but what must be known is this site is self-functioning.

    There has been no administration since November, 2009.

    No one can sign up for a user name, which is a requirement to write articles.

    So, as it stands, the only “authors” here are me, Thomas Wayne, and John.

    In actuality, even though the vast majority of blog sites like this (and High Heat Stats) are comment driven, the truth is we are exhausting our topics and it’s becoming harder and harder for us to keep talking about the same things over and over.

    Tim Raines isn’t a HOFer in my opinion.

    You know that, John knows it, Lefty knows it, Cameron and Thomas and Raul know it too.

    Nothing has changed since last year at this time.

    There are no “newbies” here to continue the debate, no new ideas, no ability to produce a quality debate from a different point of view.

    Dugout Central is like married sex.

    If you have to dress up like the Cowboy from the Village People to get laid, had to break it to you, but your marriage is dead.

  19. Cameron Says:

    I actually am about to start a podcast on a site that has thousands of unique viewers a day. I’m pretty sure if I plugged this site there when I get it up and running, I can get at least a few new viewers in.

  20. Mike Felber Says:

    I am corresponding with Andy, just clarified my question, though he already said he has no problem mentioning this Web Site there. So can i get the E-Mails to have those who would WRITE here to give folks? Chuck’s if you still are able to take them & post ‘em, & you gave me yours too before John.

  21. Mike Felber Says:

    That is good thinking Cam! Leave all the info here, that is a coup for you!

  22. Mike Felber Says:

    EAEAEASY there, slugger. It is not that grim.

    Even married sex can be reinvigorated, but we need to do more like bring in the neighbors! ;-)

    I understand you can post articles. And WANTED some. So can you not post them & easily, boldly, credit the author, even if it also comes out as listed under your name? If there is no way to change the user name issue, it has to be easy to properly credit guys.

    You know we know Raines is not a HOFer in your personal opinion. Right, but that is irrelevant to this issue. We/I have shown no interest in getting new men in to advocate for pet issues. i could do that if I wanted to. We end up talking about it more often when you take an out of nowhere potshot at his HOF fitness!

    New people would bring in fresh opinions & perspectives, & someone like Frank Clingenpeel (an older guy who is a treasure trove of personal anecdotes) would provide a more narrative driven human interest.

    If we try but a small amount, we can bring in the low hanging fruit of new writers & fans.

  23. Cameron Says:

    Well I need to get the mic in the mail, first. That’ll take a few weeks. Then getting things set up might take a while. Might be a few months before I really get it going, but Jason “LordKaT” Pullara has graciously let me be part of his website’s blog community and if I somehow become a front page feature, I’m gonna get a crapload of exposure for this place.

  24. Chuck Says:


    Anyone can sign up to post comments, all that takes is a name and email.

    It’s the validation process to write.

    And, yes, both John and I have posted articles for the likes of Bob and Cameron in the past.

    I would prefer John to be the point on this, if I don’t have the time to write, then I don’t have the time to edit and post something written by someone else.

    Quoting Steve Miller;

    “Time keeps on slippin’, slippin’, slippin’ into the future”

  25. John Says:

    Come Jan 25 I’m not sure what my situation will be…as I understand it, my time will be limited, but I fully intend to keep this thing going. Chuck, Godspeed bro, best of luck.

  26. Lefty33 Says:

    “You know we know Raines is not a HOFer in your personal opinion.”

    It’s not opinion Mike, it’s fact.

    He’s currently not in the HOF.

    He’s not getting into the HOF in ‘12, or in this decade, or without an 11th hour sympathy vote like Rice and Blyleven.

    If he were such a stud he would be in already instead of having barely half the needed votes after four tries.

    He’ll get 45-50% in the ‘12 voting but that’s only a reflection of the train wreck class of 2012 and not of his actual merits. I mean Morris will get more votes than him and he’s not going anywhere.

    Come 2013 with guys like Piazza and Biggio coming on the ballot Raines will be gone until around 2020 at the earliest and the fact remains that whether you or John like it or not, until the BBWAA says so he is not a HOF player and trust me when I tell you they are not saying that anytime soon, if ever.

    “If we try but a small amount, we can bring in the low hanging fruit of new writers & fans.”

    Very doubtful Mike.

    Lack of content plus a lack of direction on the site.

    People for the most part want sites to either be foaming homer based to a particular team or foaming towards all things SABER. A general wonkish site like this is the equivalent of C-SPAN in that while it serves a purpose it’s viewership is small and will always remain small because of the market or lack thereof that it caters to.

    I’ve mentioned this site to a few people I am cordial with on Bleacher and other sites like phuturephillies.com and trust me when I tell you that no one is terribly interested.

  27. Mike Felber Says:

    Of course I knew that the validation process only applies to articles Chuck. And you being otherwise engaged re: posting & editing makes sense. John, you can still do this? If so, please re-post your E-mail. Mr. Wayne seems to be temporarily AWOL.

    Lefty, how can anyone be more cluelessly literal than me? ;-) You must know the implied clause omitted was “in your opinion”. What qualifies for stud” worthy is subjective, but Captain Bly should have been automatic, & it took years & concerted campaigns to ever get him in. Raines I only claim is a worthy “lower tier” guy. Whether he WILL get in in 8 years or after? Opinion? but I have no strong reason to differ with you, other that the unknown factor, like sympathy vote, may be larger than you think. Morris thankfully is likely going nowhere.

    As for this site: I did not say get a certain large # of hits. But to get several new writers, & maybe add a dozen regular commenters, should not be brain surgery. This would completely reinvigorate things here.

    I do not know what potential we could have with the right promotion & validation, but you are right we do not have a convenient niche. But I see NO reason the modest goals I described, at minimum, could not be accomplished with a mix of SM, general human interest, nostalgia, & current game analysis.

  28. John Says:

    Anyone who wants to post, email me your article at .

    Particularly you, Mike! Seeing as some of your comments could be stand-alone articles :)

  29. Cameron Says:

    Hey Chuck, you have Skype, right? I was just asking because you might be a cool guest for my podcast when I get it up and running. What with your experience, knowledge of the game, and charming personality.

  30. Chuck Says:

    No, Cameron

  31. Cameron Says:

    Fair enough, bro.

  32. Mike Felber Says:

    Where is that charming personality in a gracious decline, or was Cam using the phrase ironically? ;-)

    Not that it was like some of the conduct at OWS ringing in the New Year. I ended up chiding a # of protesters for abusive speech/screaming. It is unethical, hurts the cause, & triggers more hate & at least psychic violence.

    Thanks John, I am passing on your info where relevant. I have just posted the writing & commenting invitation, & called out to many some specific folks, inc. John Q. Here is the 1st that ALSo includes the submission E-Mail address, under suggestions & also visible on the home page re: “recent comments”. I will do it again in the near future when a particularly popular thread pops up & is in its prime.


  33. Cameron Says:

    Mike, while I support OWS quite strongly, you have to admit the number of dumbasses protesting pretty heavily outweighs the number of pople who know what they’re actually fighting for.

  34. Chuck Says:

    Ever been to Times Square on New Year’s Eve, Cameron?

    It’s packed with 1.2 million dumbasses.

  35. Cameron Says:

    No, but that’s on the to-do list if I ever get the chance.

  36. Mike Felber Says:

    Wrong & unfair Cameron. Having read something about your age, experience, & your latest comment, it is rational to assume you have spent likely zero time at ANY OWS gathering, protest, or celebration, let alone the big one in NYC. And have you spoent a good amount of time researching what they say/their living Constitution, how their GA operates, & read little of the nuances on either side. Just followed the news reports sometimes. If you just do that, you might see the worst represented on any side-as has happened to minorities many times, especially males.

    As happens to cops sometimes, certainly, regrettably, stereotyped in the eyes of many on the left. But not nearly most! My posts correcting hate on the side of my brethren here: http://gothamist.com/2012/01/01/ellen_barkin_pissed_off_at_nypd_for.php

    The vast majority of folks are not doing “dumbass” stuff. Though too many for my taste do, recall that selection bias, & the way that the human mind reacts to & notices threats & emotional reactions disproportionately-what the media & sensationalistic reporters focus on-NOT what the vast majority are doing or not doing. Like those carrying around “no violence” signs, or doing a sit down impromptu protest reaction to a screaming kid (whose actions I condemned without getting mad/personal w/my found NYE mini-megaphone).

  37. Lefty33 Says:

    (As much as I hate delving into things political on the internet as it’s about as stupid as getting into a HOF debate I’ll let a few brain droppings go.)

    “And have you spoent a good amount of time researching what they say/their living Constitution”

    Who cares?

    What has come from the OWS “movement”?

    Nothing has changed and nothing will.

    In my fair little city (and in two neighboring cities) the OWS protesters were kicked out of City Hall area, the public library, etc. until they were finally arrested for public trespassing and for not having the proper permits.

    And since that they have not come back.

    The thing you forget Mike is that in that bubble of left wing lunacy you live in called NYC things may get some temporary traction but in the rest of the country people do not give a shit about the OWS and the people who participate are looked on as lunatics and whacks.

    A year from now the OWS “movement” will be dead and nothing will be any different than when it began.

    “No, but that’s on the to-do list if I ever get the chance.”

    It’s very over rated unless you want to get various alcohol laden products dumped on you along with various human bodily fluids as well.

    It ain’t New Years Eve, or maybe it’s just a regular Saturday night, until you see people pissing and shitting off of their fire escapes and balconies down to the street below and NYC’s finest just stand there and laugh about it.

    I’ve done the NYE in Times Square three times and I really wouldn’t recommend it.

  38. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree that the ball drop is not worth it. But then why do it 3X? Youthful indiscretion, peer pressure?

    Your view of NYC folks, & excrement laden weekends, is absurdly inaccurate. Beyond an exaggerated caricature. So it is not surprising that your claim about the overall reputation of OWS is very wrong-polls do not support you.

    There IS some kernal of truth though. NYC is much more liberal overall. Calling that lunacy is part of the hostile, mindless burn & dehumanize the opposition attitude that is destroying reason 7 civil political debate-on BOTH sides.

    There are occupy movements in many 100′;s of Cities, it is not true nobody cares, & they have changes the parameters of the debate to include things like fairness, income inequality, Corporate welfare, corrupt economic laws (& unpunished corruption in the public & private spheres), labor issues, & much more.

    I will be very happy to bet you re; whether OWS lasts through the year. Question is, will they support & effectively push some of the many pieces of legislation or specific causes that are endorsed by consensus/their Living Constitution.

    Chilling contempt & toxic disdain at best masquerades for an adult attitude. It is mutually destructive & viciously toxic for the perpetrator too. So i want it minimized in OWS.

  39. Lefty33 Says:

    “Youthful indiscretion”

    Yes for two of them and no for one.

    “excrement laden weekends, is absurdly inaccurate”

    No Mike it’s not. I’ve been to NYE festivites in NYC three times and twice I’ve been pissed on by other people acting “festive” in one way or another.

    One time in the early 90’s there were several police in the area of where I was walking after the ball dropped and they stood by and watched as a group of people who were on a fire escape of an apartment building were bombing people as they walked by with urine filled balloons.

    So yes it does happen and that’s not the only time I’ve seen/come too close for my own comfort to an expierience like that on NYE in NYC either.

    “So it is not surprising that your claim about the overall reputation of OWS is very wrong-polls do not support you.”


    “There are occupy movements in many 100′;s of Cities”

    And the movements are dying more and more everyday as local governments get tired of dealing with the people who make up these rogue tent cities.

    Mike I live two states away from you in PA and the OWS has no presence at all here. I was just in Philly last week and what’s left of their movement looks silly, pathetic, and disjointed and they will be done within months if not weeks.

    I live in the third largest city in the state and the mayor was having the OWS members evicted from the public property around city hall and arrested in November and they have not returned since.

    What you fail to see is that what plays in NYC does not play in Des Moines. (analogy)

    A good friend of mine is one of the Asst. Controllers at the Marriott Marquis and when I talk with him or on rare times I visit I always remind him that life does exist and go on West of the Hudson River and just because you assume you’re so smart and astute doesn’t mean the rest of the country agrees.

    “they have changes the parameters of the debate to include things like fairness, income inequality, Corporate welfare, corrupt economic laws (& unpunished corruption in the public & private spheres), labor issues, & much more”

    But again, what have they done?

    What have they changed?


    “Question is, will they support & effectively push some of the many pieces of legislation or specific causes that are endorsed by consensus/their Living Constitution.”

    Of course they won’t.

    If you are not well funded and well connected to the political machine you’ve got no real chance at doing anything substanitive long term.

    Like I said Mike a year from now OWS won’t exist outside of maybe NYC and LA and five years from now it will be nothing except another silly acronym and something to laugh at on Wikipedia.

  40. John Says:

    OWS is a bigger joke than the Mariners’ offense.

  41. Mike Felber Says:

    A premise absent any evidence would seem like a joke, at least it is not an argument of any sort. Anybody can say this about anything John. Feel free to give me some reasons. Preferably keeping in mind what i have written about it, at a bit of length, on other threads. That is, address the substance & not just assume a stereotypical straw man. As is my responsibility not to assume you are a narrow minded Conservative just ’cause you are in the military.

    Lefty: you have had bad luck. I do not say you are making everything up, & I do not know if there is any selection bias, only recalling the bad things. But I & tons of folks I know have lived in NYC for years, me for decades. And go all over NYC, often many places &/or events in a day or evening. I have not had those experiences, & while i have seen a fair share of ignorance, still the vast majority of folks, at most ANY place & event are not abusive, inconsiderate yahoos.

    NYC also has had a pretty LOW urban rate of crime (in the only meaningful way to measure it, per capita (population), for many years now. You have a big disconnect: you said my statement about excrement laden weekends was wrong, then you did not even address what I said! You wrote that “…maybe it’s just a regular Saturday night”. You speculated about this being normal, not just NYE conduct, & did NOT address that when challenged.

    Calling BS about polls is meaningless if then you do not ciute any polls, & go on to something else.

    So you shifted to talking about the movement being in decline. Of course there has been blow back. Show me how there are less total encampments, in the world or in the US. There are always things shifting: many feel that Bloomberg did them a favor evicting them, providing a rallying point/enemy. The press blackout & way their library was treated was illegal. And since then the NYC OWS movement has done more things, marches, subway actions, retook a property for a homeless family, etc…

    I am well aware how Des Moines is different from NYC. But me citing cities like Boston (many there last night for OWS NYC) where it is strong & continual also does NOT show how well it is doing overall. Like looking at how Pujols does for a day or week tells nothing about his overall performance.

    There CAN be an arrogance that folks here have. Just like there can be an ignorant anti-NYC stereotype that some have, the recent cowardly Football beat down (guy seems damaged for life) where abusive fans screamed about 911.

    But you put me down as a lazy cliche when you assume absent evidence that I assume everyone agrees with me or whether my idea(l)s are smart. Please look at exactly what i say, stop constructing Straw Men stereotypes.

    You mean they have not changed any formal policies on any significant level? It took the Civil Rights & woman’s movement a hell of a lot longer than 3 months to do that. 1st you attract attention, rally folks, develop a platform…

    They have plenty of ideas, & it is an open question whether they will organize to make tangible change, enough & effectively. But I just heard last night how rich & celebrity supporters have given them much money recently, they had an infusion of 1/2 million. Seems like they will have the ability to do far more than feed many, clothe some, & do some grassroots protest.

    You did NOT say that it will not exist outside of NYC & LA, that is a CHANGES claim Lefty. Where you excise the largest cities in the movement. i will still happily take that bet.

  42. Cameron Says:

    You ever feel bad for players on teams based on their position? Some teams just have expectations to live up to.

    I realized this watching Tony Romo. The guy isn’t a bad quarterback by any means, but Dallas has a LONG history of elite QBs with Meredith, Staubach, and Aikman. He’s gonna be looked on to be something he’s not. Same thing with Carl Crawford in Boston. The guy is a great player, but he has a legacy of Williams, Yaz, Rice, and Ramirez, big sluggers who were the key to their offense. He’s always gonna be looked at to be something he’s not.

    Any other associations you can think of? I know KC has a pretty rich history of runningbacks. Though we actually still have that one running strong with the JC of KC.

  43. Lefty33 Says:

    “maybe it’s just a regular Saturday night”.

    Obviously Mike that was thrown in there as a point of sarcasm.

    The fact of the matter remains that in my times of being in NYC on NYE both tourists and residents have acted like yahoos and zoo animals in their behavior.

    In has gotten better post-Giuliani but on NYE for the most part the song remains the same.

    “I do not know if there is any selection bias,”

    Nope, just factual incidents that actually happened.

    “Calling BS about polls is meaningless if then you do not ciute any polls, & go on to something else.”

    By the way, what did you cite?

    Right, nothing.

    “And since then the NYC OWS movement has done more things, marches, subway actions, retook a property for a homeless family, etc…”

    Which have equated to what?


    The financial institutions that were the initial targets of the movement have not changed one business practice. And why should they? What are a bunch of powerless hippies living in tents going to do?

    “There CAN be an arrogance that folks here have”

    Not CAN but IS.

    As in there IS an arrogance that folks in NYC have to the common plebeians who do not inhabit the holy ground of the five boroughs.

    “Please look at exactly what i say, stop constructing Straw Men stereotypes”

    I do and it comes across as elitist, snobby, and arrogant most of the time.

    I don’t need to stereotype you because you do the work for me.

    “develop a platform…”

    That’s the thing. There is no platform.

    OWS means one thing in NYC and it meant something different in Philly just like it means something different in Seattle.

    It would be like going to an Applebees expecting shitty chain restaurant burgers only to find out that they’re serving szechuan dumplings and spring rolls.

    “But I just heard last night how rich & celebrity supporters have given them much money recently, they had an infusion of 1/2 million.”

    That’s called a fad.

    “Where you excise the largest cities in the movement. i will still happily take that bet.”

    There’s enough jobless and homeless left wing loons in NYC and LA to probably keep OWS going for a while but like I said within five years it will be gone and it just be something that people will look back and wonder WTF sort of like the Branch Davidians in Waco.

  44. Mike Felber Says:

    Since you are the one who called BS re: polls, the onus was upon you to provide some evidence to the contrary, or to politely ask for my sources. Instead of citing evidence, you switched to a different point. The Wikipedia page on them seems consistent with most other information. There are currently 396 references for you to check out for their entry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street. Read under the heading “Public Opinions”, that starts with:

    “National polls from October to December 2011 were mixed, with agreement/approval ratings for Occupy Wall Street varying from 59% to 22%, but approval was fairly consistently larger than disapproval, with large numbers often not giving an opinion”.

    It goes on to say small businesses are split, pretty darn good when biz. is supposed to be more Conservative. The New York State, not just City, #s are somewhat higher in support, but what I just quoted are national surveys The sympathy is even greater in the rest of the world.

    You have shown no evidence that I am elitist, snobby, or arrogant. Unless you assume any progressive opinions are so. I have CONSISTENTLY expressed sympathy for some conservative paradigms, even have links above when I ppsted about personally taking verbally abusive protesters to task. You are a Straw Man machine Lefty!

    I do please guilty to not knowing you were being only sarcastic with the Saturday night statement. But if I was as negative about, say, Conservatives or an over 8 million pop. slice of the Midwest as you are about NYC, then I would be properly called out for no nothing speech, likely motivated by some degree of hate.

    Ah, yes, it has gotten dramatically better during the Giuliani administration (despite his many flaws & abuses of Civil Liberties, illegal actions overturned by the courts, bullying, allowing Police abuse to fester, insensitivity to minorities…)Credit for which largely goes to his Police Commissioner Bratton & assorted procedures, to a degree demographics, that i will skip in the interests of brevity for now.

    So that is about 2 full DECADES now dude. And you base your opinions on some unfortunate experiences a looong time ago. Absurd. Also, “selection bias” does not mean those incidents did not happen, but tons of studies show that the initial & more powerful negative impressions help form an inaccurate overall picture of things.

    If this is demonstrably true with such neutral things as a player you see screw up or succeed at early on, or a Jack Morris, not so great overall in the post season/under pressure, how much MORE true is it when their is an upsetting or traumatic incident?

    You are being too literal when you make the can/is distinction: clearly I was saying some on all, & my side, can be arrogant. But that no major legislation has been changed within its just over 3 months of existence?! How many more m movements for human rights, like woman’s suffrage, so I need to add to civil rights & labor laws to show they ALL were fueled by “powerless” folks? And took a LONG while to make major, structural changes.

    OWS has no one set of formal demands YET. But there is broad agreement on specific like repealing Glass Spiegal, & you can read tons of proposals, general & specific, in the Living Constitution re: limiting Gov’t favoritism towards big business, putting back regulations to prevent myriad abuses in banking, mortgages, & financial speculation like derivatives, actually applying existing laws-& much more.

    The fast food analogy is particularly ill conceived. Besides the quality of the product being wholly different, the participatory democracy should NOT produce uniformity.

    You said they had little money & support, I give you evidence of a massive cash infusion, disproving that, There are ALWAYS faddish elements in everything, but just getting money from well off or famous sources does not show that their motivations are mostly thus.

    And you compare them to whacko cult like in Waco. That sounds “Fair & Balanced”. You were wrong in your sweeping statement about their bad reputation now (& certainly even better internationally, where it is in-well YOU check how many many many cities).

    Now we will see if they end up effectively supporting people & groups that make concrete changes. but you are not a good judge of any of this, you are reacting in ONLY stereotypes. Let us look at the structural distinctions.

    I acknowledge some arrogance of some in NYC, but you make an UNQUALIFIED statement, as if applying to most or all in NYC. You could not be more incorrect. I am sure I know well & casually exponentially more New Yorkers, & if you polled, say, those who have lived here for a while now or in the recent past, you will not find your caricature opinion of OUR opinions backed by those in the know.

    Again, it is as if I said that Christians in general are intolerant, mean spirited, fundamentalists so arrogant & ignorant as to think all people, even if Gandhi, who do not believe in Christ as savior are going to hell. Let alone believe in Creationism instead of the very foundation of modern science.

    That would be as broad brush a prejudice as you apply to us in NYC. And I am a liberal atheist, just realize that some of the best & most ethical people 7 greatest thought can come from religion.

  45. Chuck Says:

    ” I said within five years it will be gone and it just be something that people will look back and wonder WTF sort of like the Branch Davidians in Waco.”

    I was thinking sabermetrics, but, whatever, point taken.

  46. brautigan Says:


    “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention”.

    There is enough outrageous behavior going on. The Tea Party started a movement, and it was co-opted by the neo-cons. The Occupy folks started a movement,and it has devolved into a mud hole. And the outrageous behavior will continue unless enough of us call for a change. If you sit on your budweiser swilling ass and do nothing, more of “The financial institutions that were the initial targets of the movement have not changed one business practice. And why should they?” type of BS will continue.

    But don’t for a minute think there not good reasons to be out there raising a fuss.

  47. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, I expect the SM jibes Chuck, thanks for (presumably) listening to my long winded content. Since not much is going on now, the off topic discussions seem diverting & hopefully illuminating.

    Brautigan, the last time I went to OWS before they were broken up-& since spent hours on 4 occasions, one after a march-there WAS more divisiveness & conflict. Though being kicked out sort of re-energized their dedication & made creativity a necessity. But I want you to understand that the vast majority are not irrational abusers. it is not a mud hole.

    Young people tend to have the idealism & free time to help disproportionately change the world. On the other hand, especially young men/testosterone can be immature yahoos &/or abusive, & any group, police or demonstrators, can be prone to mob mentality under the wrong circumstances & lack of direction.

    The open source nature of the movement is positive, much sorts itself out from Democratic debate & the ubiquitous General Assembly. Though i think many are TOO attached, ironically, to the “nobody is a leader” paradigm. At least they need to promulgate ethical & effective means of protest & response. Because otherwise unstable folks may have too much influence on group dynamics.

  48. Mike Felber Says:

    to be clear, Obama has been no better than any of what is critiqued on most big issues. He appointed all the complicit banking & regulating interests to his Cabinet, & has been a real disappointment on things like Civil Liberties too. Corporations upheld as people by the highest courts is bad enough. Now Obama is signing a law where anyone can citizen can be whisked away with no access to representation, essentially disappeared, in the name of national interest.

    Want to see a clever song/video that illustrates the problem? I met this guy on the train returning from OWS, he gave me a free video. Watch this & tell us there is not a big problem to our freedoms & economic opportunities.


  49. Cameron Says:

    Mike, that’s not a bill. That’s the annual military budget. However, adding a rider like THAT is pretty fuckin’ sleazy. Sadly, the NDAA needs to be passed every year.

  50. Mike Felber Says:

    That is a good point to make Cameron.

  51. Lefty33 Says:

    @46 –

    “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention”.

    I’m not quite sure what that’s suppose to be telling me.

    “The Occupy folks started a movement,and it has devolved into a mud hole.”

    That’s putting it mildly.

    “If you sit on your budweiser swilling ass and do nothing, more of “The financial institutions that were the initial targets of the movement have not changed one business practice.”

    First, thanks but I don’t drink Bud.

    Second, are you really naive enough to think that these large multi-national, multi-billion dollar corporations give a damn about a bunch of mostly unemployed hippies living in tents in a lot of cases illegally on private property?

    “But don’t for a minute think there not good reasons to be out there raising a fuss”

    That’s debatable.

    The way they are going about it is all wrong.

    Without getting people who are actually part of the system and the machine that is government to be sympathetic with whatever their “cause” is the OWS will never change someone’s oil let alone the fiscal or monetary policy of this country/a corporation/or even a person.

    What has been done or accomplished after a few months of OWS?


    All they have done is gotten themselves embarrassed nationally with their behavior. I always like reading about where OWS groups start squatting somewhere, especially on private property, and then when they get kicked out and/or people start getting arrested it “energizes” the movement because it’s them versus “The Man”.

    It’s a fad, a big crock of shit, or whatever else you want to call it.

    (On a side note, this is a site for Baseball and Mike I really think if you want to keep preaching your left wing OWS loving ideas you should do it somewhere else.)

  52. Cameron Says:

    I’m with Lefty on the last part. While I can talk people’s ear off all day with politics (and shut down several political debates I’ve had with friends quite soundly with my aptitude for it), I choose not to because this site’s about baseball.

    …So let’s get back and play ball. And I hope the news heats up soon because I’m trying to start a podcast and the news is fucking SLOW! I’ve got nothing to cover and I don’t wanna wait until spring training for shit to cover.

  53. John Says:

    In the spirit of OWS, I think Yuniesky Betancourt and Prince Fielder should get the same contract.

  54. Lefty33 Says:

    @53 – LOL!

  55. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not completely agree. We have for years strayed onto other topics at great length, been tolerant that way, & you all have either led or followed. Most everyone introduces separate topics & comments at least occasionally, & you Lefty have often chosen to engage in detail.

    I have been particularly verbose lately in response, not only to correct multiple primitive misapprehensions, but because little has been posted here. Hopefully that will change soon with folks recruited from another Web Site. I will respond to your points above, & if you really value keeping this a more baseball exclusive site, feel free to stop discussing the issue.

    Because this is all I need to say now. The banks & Gov’t have outrageously collaborated on favoring the wealthy & connected, eviscerated normal regulation of corruption, & allowed a house of cards of financial speculation, irresponsible banking & illusory derivatives as wealth has become obscenely bifurcated & opportunities & FREEDOMS for success eviscerated for the 99%. While the military industrial complex rolls on & civil liberties roll back.

    I gave extensive evidence that the “mud hole” statement is asinine. There is no substance there, save sensationalistic reports. I cited folks over the top I corrected: this happens every day all over the USA, especially in any concentrated population & emotional cause. It is like condemning whole minority communities as zoos based upon stereotypes & fear. Check with folks who lived &/or go to events regularly in occupy NYC.

    The whole “dirty hippie” paradigm is tired & unevolved. Besides that only some identify that way, it is a thoughtless way to dismiss the movement, which has folks of ALL ages & stations of life. Youth just have more ability (& often idealism) to occupy. re: Civil & woman’s rights, suffrage, labor laws, civil liberties, all sorts of regulation of horrific conditions, environmental laws:

    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” – Margaret Mead.

    Those Corps. care a lot about the mass of public opinion re: there bottom line, & more so about how that may change the Oligarchy/gamed system through regulation, laws & control & punishment of outright criminality. ALL of this starts with PR & a mass movement, which has changed MUCH in terms of the public debate, consciousness of the 99% being screwed as we stray further from True Democracy, & I have shown in detail how they have acquired a fairly sympathetic ear from the public. Check their approval ratings vs., say, the Tea Party: & recall how much LONGER it took for the latter to be more than a relative laughingstock!

    HOW successful they will be in changing policy is fully unknown. They DO need to do & back real candidates, & coalesce around policies they have extensively detailed, & there is internal consensus on.

    It is exceedingly cynical to grant not even sincere intent behind the movement. (All BS, a crock, fad…) Anyone who says that betrays minimal knowledge & experience of those involved. It is part of the sick post modern trend to put down even the good motivations of whole parties, causes, people you disagree with. Flame the opposition any way possible, instead of considering it a MORAL OBLIGATION to figure out just how much is good &/or well intended. Fairness.

    That IS funny John, forgive my pedantry when I note that few OWS folks want to limit the freedom of successful employees to receive more money. Though they would like their kids, parents, friends to have some hope & ability to advance in meaningful work, rather than have rights eroded & smashed with effectively usury structures while serving a materialistic cult that benefits only the 1%.

    So anyone who wants no debate on this issue, leave it be.

  56. Lefty33 Says:

    “Most everyone introduces separate topics & comments at least occasionally”

    They are almost always sports related in one way or another.

    Like when Cameron brings in some NFL now and then.

    Or when we were talking about something to do with the NBA a while back.

    Politics and “movements” have never been discussed here at length Mike and to say otherwise is a lie.

    “you Lefty have often chosen to engage in detail”

    Yes because the past discussions when they related to politics were mostly in reference to steriod issues and anti-trust issues with baseball and Congress.

    I’ve made a few posts on this subject to point out the total absurdity of the OWS and the fact that you have your head so far up your ass it’s laughable when you think that other people care enough to want to read about you posting about it with the frequency that you do.

    Take it somewhere else.

    This is a baseball site, not a launching pad for you to continue to spout things that have zero to do with a baseball/sports site.

    “Hopefully that will change soon with folks recruited from another Web Site”

    About as much of a chance of that happening as BOA changing anything because of the campers.

    “Check with folks who lived &/or go to events regularly in occupy NYC.”

    How about you check in with reality.


    Then when they get sued/arrested/and actally have the laws of the city/county/state enforced that’s some badge of honor or a rallying cry about inequality?

    Crock of shit.

    “Anyone who says that betrays minimal knowledge & experience of those involved.”

    There’s a strawman if I’ve ever read one

    “So anyone who wants no debate on this issue, leave it be.”

    Actually the answer is for YOU to stop bringing this shit on this site.

    Unless a website is designated as such normally you don’t bring up three topics with strangers unless they all consent:

    1. Money

    2. Religion/Morality

    3. Politics

    The reason being of course is that these topics will normally elicit very strong and toxic responses in return and apparently you love to go OT with this stuff all the time but that doesn’t mean the rest of us do.

    This a baseball site Mike. Take the personal politics elsewhere.

    IF people were to ever be brought over from other sites do you seriously think they want to read this shit that you constantly spew on here?

    I’ve never once had a discussion on any of the five or six baseball sites I post on about OWS, politics, or anything close to this.

    It’s only here and it’s only with you.

    Fucking bottle the shit up and keep it to yourself and/or take it elsewhere.

  57. Mike Felber Says:

    We have had many non-sports comments for years, some long discussions. Politics, photography, girls, personalities in the news. You just chose to continue one.

    You can check the archive-though much of the old archive is gone-but it is sad to assume that if someone disagrees it is a lie, not just that there is a difference of opinion.
    The reason you chose to repeatedly argue about OWS does not make it a virtue-if it is wrong for others to do so, you are wrong too. But it is intolerant to condemn the mere discussion, whether we do it with respect, mockery, & being as scrupulously fair as we can muster is what matters.

    You say “take it somewhere else”. No. YOU chose to comment, in an instigating way again, & became unhinged when you first departed for no good cause. If you really valued no dicussion of anything that was not baseball-as if that was really important on a moribund site-you would have not responded. Or would have avoided doing so if you had the self discipline.

    Check the HOF discussion thread. Already we have a highly intelligent & prolific respondee to a couple of very popular baseball Blogs who has commented. There will be more, & i will post to invite them again.

    OWS New York is private property with a mandate to stay open to the public 24/7. Though it is true that they can make rules against squatting. I respect your opinion about this, though many feel that the letter of the law is not always the highest moral arbiter of what is right. At least if you are willing to pay the consequences & reap the benefits of peaceful civil disobedience. MLK learned greatly from Gandhi on this, & both are amongst many who thus dramatically changed the world.

    I said those comments betray little knowledge & experience of the movement, which seems factual. A strawman is setting up an argument you did not make & debating it. My statement seems true, relevant & does not meet the potential definition of the term. if it was, you would be arguing how you know much about NYC (anecdotes of bad NYC experiences from decades past do not count as meaningful) or experienced much about OWS.

    Again I’ll do something I have not seen you do when upset: grant the truth of some of what you are saying. yep, it is common, not universal, to avoid those topics, at least in depth. And yes, one reason is some become unhinged-mean, name calling, mocking-with polite disagreements.

    like crime or the outlier cops & OWS small % who are abusive Lefty, it only “Normally” elicits this over time, &/or with a large # of people. Selection bias: many do not notice all the folks who do NOT get toxic, go ballistic, etc…

    Let me say it kindly but firmly: you should not be ordering me to do anything non-abusive. I do not even act profane when you act…let us say emotional. I also will not be ordered around, but do not worry, i will never act in (un)kind to you. But if I or my topics are addressed, I reserve the right to respond.

    AGAIN: the issue would have been over with if you did not feel the need to violate your own attempted prohibition against the topic. AGAIN: I had nothing else to say on the issue, was done. And will be so unless you decide to again reanimate the discussion with claims I feel best to calmly dispute.

    Many have had discussions about other things here. If you only do so here & with me, perhaps consider why you need to engage. Unlike you, I do not blame you for doing so-decently. But you were never called out in any sense, & there was no terrible language you needed to oppose.

    If you engage, do so with an open heart. If you cannot, learn from the upset. if you STILL feel the need to argue after I said i have nothing more to say on the issue, ask for my E-mail to bicker IF you feel that posts about non-baseball issues (there is much re; other sports, though explicitly a baseball site, another letter of the law triviality) are so evil.

    Anyway, there was little else going on, not even much of the (also not unusual) back & forth about personal life. Let’s hope that more baseball will be discussed here Lefty/all: because it is not off topic conversations that will drive anyone away (I am thinking especially of newbies recruited).

    It would be the lack of baseball content, & most especially personal acrimony.

  58. Cameron Says:

    Mike, please just drop it. There’s one rule I like to follow and that’s never talk politics or religion in public. I’d like to keep it this way.

  59. Lefty33 Says:

    “AGAIN: the issue would have been over with if you did not feel the need to violate your own attempted prohibition against the topic.”

    No dude the issue is that you (not Cameron, not Chuck, not John, not Bob, not me) started this by mentioning the OWS nonsense on here in this thread, in other threads as well, and it has no place here.

    Like Cameron said, just drop it.

  60. Bob Says:

    Scott Boras is seeking a 5-year deal for Edwin Jackson.

  61. Chuck Says:

    “We have for years strayed onto other topics at great length, been tolerant that way, & you all have either led or followed.”

    That’s not entirely true.

    And once you’ve been asked to stop.


  62. Chuck Says:

    “but because little has been posted here.”

    Yeah, I’m guessing the Holidays had something to do with that.

    And even so, a blank page is better than being full of OWS bullshit.

    Seriously, Mike, if you feel like adding an off-baseball discussion topic because the Hot Stove is cold fine, but keep the race, religion and politics out of it.

  63. Bob Says:

    1. Jason Frasor was traded for Daniel Webb and Myles Jave.
    2. Congrats to the Spartans,
    3. let’s go U-M!!!

  64. Bob Says:

    Scott Boras, in his promotianal book on Edwin jackson equates him to
    1. C.J. Wilson
    2. Mark Buehrle
    3. John lackey
    4. A.J. Burnett
    5. Derek Lowe
    Is he aware that 2/5 of that list has teams disgusted with themselves for those deals? And Lowe was traded by Atlanta recently?

  65. Cameron Says:

    Wilson may actually live up to his contract, Buerhle’s beyond overpaid, Lackey is the biggest contract cancer in the league, Burnett’s deal is so bad I’m surprised Cashman wasn’t beaten publicly in the middle of Times Square, and Lowe’s contract was so bad it took them two years to find a taker.

  66. Mike Felber Says:

    1) If I am asked by someone who helps runs this Blog, I will stop. Done.

    2) I even HAD stopped when Lefty asked me to, though explicitly reserved the right to respond to new insults & objections he chose to introduce. You should at least be chiding him for doing so, when i explicitly said I would just answer him there. When ANYONE presumes to even ask someone to stifle themselves, it is only decent, & likely to work, if they do not do so after THEMSELVES again arguing the issue at hand, even politely! This is basic decency & logic.

    3) The mistake of presuming to order rather than ask, especially when he has absolutely no formal authority here (neither have I). Like mockery, name calling, & other aggression that attempts to show contempt, that results in at least objections. With most others it would result in responding in (un)kind.

    4) Yes, we have for years discussed other topics at length. Recall the looong photography posts, in # & length, that was the occupation & hobby of Hoss? Need other examples? Nobody objected. You & all here have engaged in at least some of these discussions, though we did not enter that one.

    5) I want to make clear Chuck that you have been restrained & fair in tolerating things here: other than the bias of calling one side BS, it is valid that any writer who is helping keep an “orphaned” site alive should be considered a de facto leader.

    6) It takes a certain mutual sensitivity to talk about race, religion & politics, & everyone here would admit that even re: baseball, that has often not been in evidence amongst some. Thus it is best to drop at least those 3 delimited subjects that so many can or do not help being sensitive about, including being uncivil.

  67. Bob Says:

    1. Coco Crisp will sign with the A’s.
    2. See you tomorrow.

  68. Cameron Says:

    The Red Sox signed like, fifteen minor leaguers. Among the notable signings are Carlos Silva, Rich Hill, Jesse Carlson, and Tony Pena, Jr.

    Also, Robinson Tejeda is a Cleveland Indian. As someone who’s had Tejeda in the bullpen for the past few years, I can say this is a good signing. Solid guy for the back end of a bullpen.

  69. Bob Says:

    Last night between Iowa and the well-played Sugar Bowl, I was mulling over an article about how I thought the A’s somewaht overpaid for Crisp, whom I like, but I just read that MLB, and the players union, really wants every team to spend at least $40MM on their 25-man roster. Makes a little more sense to me now.

  70. Bob Says:

    Joe Torre will resin from his pot, and bid on the Dodgers. Too lazy to research it completely, but i think we have:
    1. Magic Johnson and his group.
    2. Steve Garvey and his group.
    3. Mark Cuban
    4.The former owner of the Buffalo Sabres and his group.
    5. Joe Tore and his group.
    6. Is this list accurate?
    7. Thanks in advance for the answer.

  71. Bob Says:

    Actually, I just read the list.

  72. Brautigan Says:

    Andy Carey: RIP.

  73. John Says:

    The Cubs have gotten rid of Carlos Zambrano in exchange for Chris Volstad. I imagine they’ll end up eating about 90% of his salary, but it’s probably worth it to get a clubhouse cancer off the team.

  74. Jim Says:

    Saw a comment that Zambrano waived his no trade clause in order to play for his good friend Ozzie. Having someone as your friend and having them as your manager are two different things. Given the personalities of these two the Marlins’ dugout could be combustible.

    For the Cubs, addition by subtraction.

  75. John Says:

    I can’t believe Milton Bradley, Carlos Zambrano, and Lou Pineilla all co-existed in the same clubhouse without Wrigley burning to the freaking ground.

  76. Chuck Says:

    Spring Training tickets go on sale this weekend if you’re looking to make plans for spring break.


  77. Raul Says:

    Just got back from a few weeks in the DR.

    And now I gotta read about Spring Training. Man, I hope my wallet will allow me to do it.

    Happy New Year, everybody.

  78. Kerry Says:

    @74, I also heard that Zambrano waived his 2013 option and got paid for 24 days of last year’s suspension (a cool $2 Mil).

  79. Bob Says:

    1. The Yankees failed to sign Hiroyuki Nakajima. Wild gues: He plays for Bobby Valentine and Boston in 2013.
    2. The Mets re-signed Scott Hairston.

  80. Brautigan Says:

    I caught Dan Patrick for about 20 seconds today. He was talking about Jack Morris, and he said “the idiot sabermetrics would say ‘his WHIP is only this’, and yet, he always wanted the ball when it was on the line”.

    Well, I’m not sure what I think about Jack Morris, but I am certain Dan Patrick just hit a homerun.

  81. Chuck Says:

    Jack Morris has as much business in the HOF as Warren Morris.

    back to back jacks.

  82. Brautigan Says:

    Coincidence that Morris goes to the Twins in 1991 and they win the W.S. and then he goes to Toronto the next year and they win the W.S.?

    Say what you want about Morris, but he is what you want in a quality starting pitcher. HOF? I could care less, I’ve never been a Morris fan, but I do think the guy was a stud pitcher.

  83. John Says:

    “Jack Morris has as much business in the HOF as Warren Morris.”

    It takes a real easy case to get Chuck and I to agree on a player w.r.t the hall of fame.

    Jack Morris isn’t even close.

    “Say what you want about Morris, but he is what you want in a quality starting pitcher. HOF? I could care less, I’ve never been a Morris fan, but I do think the guy was a stud pitcher.”

    Sure. He was a solid above average pitcher for a long time. Like Tim Wakefield or David Wells.

    “Coincidence that Morris goes to the Twins in 1991 and they win the W.S. and then he goes to Toronto the next year and they win the W.S.?”

    I mean, the Blue Jays made it to the ALCS the year before. The Twins, ok, but there were plenty of other contributors. Morris was the #3 starter on that Twins team behind Scott Erickson and Kevin Tapani (ok, they probably didn’t view him that way being a veteran presence and all…but that’s how he pitched.

    Jack Morris was a regular starter from 1979-1994.

    During that time period, there were 208 instances of a pitcher qualifying for the ERA title with an ERA lower than 3.00. Morris had zero of those seasons.

    There were 191 instances of a pitcher posting a WHIP under 1.150, including Jeff Fassero and Tim Belcher. Morris had zero of those seasons.

    There were 100 instances of a pitcher posting a K/BB ratio above 3.0, including Chris Bosio and Mike Krukow. Morris had zero of those seasons.

    He had a 3.90 career ERA. When the post-season came, he dominated to the tune of… 3.80. In his vaunted 1992 season with the Blue Jays, he went 0-3.

  84. Bob Says:

    Still effing superior to Lee Smith.

  85. John Says:



  86. Brautigan Says:

    Jack Morris had 40 more wins than Nolan Ryan in the 1980’s. He had 39 more than Bert Blyleven.

    Try to find a pitcher since Jack Morris with half as many complete games since 1980.

    John, I think Dan Patrick was referring to you when you threw out the WHIP stat.

  87. Brautigan Says:

    If there was a hall of VERY GOOD, I’d elect Morris with Jim Kaat.

  88. Raul Says:

    It’s funny how we choose to elect some guys for being consistently good, yet penalize others for also being consistently good but not having a dominant peak.

    Sometimes I care about the HOF and sometimes I don’t.

  89. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 87- Right along with Tommy John.

  90. Chuck Says:

    I’ve officially decided I could give a crap about this year’s ballot, arguably the worst ballot ever.

    With all the studs likely going to be around for the next 10-15 years, it’s almost like this year doesn’t exist.

  91. Lefty33 Says:

    I agree with you Chuck 100%.

    There have been other weak ballots and weak years but even in those years, 2000 with Perez and Fisk, there were other guys on the ballot you knew were really good players who would either get in or would get close like Rice, Carter, and Gossage off that ballot.

    But when you look at 2012 it speaks volumes when the guy some people are foaming at the mouth over because he might break 55%-60% is Jack Morris.

    The ballot is essentially Larkin along with three or four solid but not HOF caliber guys and a bunch of steaming turds.

  92. John Says:

    “Jack Morris had 40 more wins than Nolan Ryan in the 1980’s. He had 39 more than Bert Blyleven.”

    Percentage of career starts with 0-2 runs of support:

    Morris – 26%
    Ryan – 37%
    Blyleven – 34%

    So that’s why right there. I mean, in 1987, Nolan Ryan posted a 142 ERA+, 2.76 ERA, 270 strikeouts, 1.139 WHIP, 3.1 K/BB, 6.5 H/9, and 5.5 WAR.

    All of these would be career bests for Morris. Ryan went 8-16.

    “John, I think Dan Patrick was referring to you when you threw out the WHIP stat.”

    Cool, Dan Patrick can tell me all about how irrelevant it is to know how often a pitcher allows baserunners. I would *love* to hear that explanation.

  93. Mike Felber Says:

    I was gonna say that Morris had some excellent defenses behind him. But fangraphs WAR, which uses FIP, gives him over 17 more points! Now FG tends to be higher, but I would not have expected this large discrepancy.

    Still, he was a good pitcher who documentably was not better under pressure, did not “pitch to the score” (this has been looked at in exhaustive situational detail), while his team 7 run environment permitted him to look significantly better than he was.

  94. Chuck Says:

    Jack Morris had a career 3.90 ERA.

    That sucks.

    In any era.

  95. John Says:

    Well, it’s average in Morris’s case, but alright, yeah.

    No one outside of New York seems to think that Andy Pettitte is a HOFer. He had a slightly better ERA in a hitter-friendly era. So why is Morris getting all this consideration?

  96. Chuck Says:

    Starlin Castro being accused of sexual assault.


  97. Bob Says:

    Q. Why is Morris getting more consideration than Andy Pettitte?
    A. Pettitte is not on the ballot. When he is, you can bet the networks and sites that discuss baseball will bring up his resume in sizable discussions and articles.

  98. Lefty33 Says:

    “A. Pettitte is not on the ballot.”

    LOL Bob!

    Great answer.

  99. Lefty33 Says:

    To me, after much thought, Pettitte will get into the HOF at some point in the distant future.

    Mostly it will be due to the lack of historically dominating pitchers so perceptions will need to change, 300 will no longer be a benchmark because no one outside of maybe CC is getting there anytime soon, but it will also be because Pettitte chose to leave on his terms when he was still a viable pitcher unlike say John who outside of an OK ‘87 season was terrible his last seven years in the league or Morris who from ‘89-’94 was seven games over .500 with an ERA of over four and a half.

    To quote the great prophet Neil Young: It’s better to burn out than to fade away

  100. Bob Says:

    @ 98

  101. Lefty33 Says:

    “So why is Morris getting all this consideration?”

    There are many, many reasons but there is one that has nothing to do with Baseball at all.

    A lot of BBWAA members love to have these type of Lazarus votes where a guy gets brought back from the dead like Blyleven and Rice.

    Expect that kind of trend to continue where a guy in his 14th or 15th year who is close, when I mean close I mean Morris close where he’ll likely go over 60% this year not say John who in his final year broke 30% for the first time, gets the needed push over the hump.

    If there were another ballot in ‘13 like there is this year without a clear cut first ballot guy I would about guarantee Morris would make it next year.

    He still might but it’s a mistake if he does.

    Also I read a rumor yesterday that the Cards are interested in Oswalt for one year but they want to use him as a Smoltz-like relief pitcher and not as a starter?

  102. Brautigan Says:

    @99: Ditto w. Moose Mussina

  103. Bob Says:

    1. The Cubs are close to signing Kerry Wood to a 1-year deal.
    2. The Mets are close to signing Ronny Cedeno.
    3. TGIF!!!

  104. Bob Says:

    The Cubs traded for Anthony Rizzo.

  105. Bob Says:

    The Padres recieved Andrew Cashner and Kyong-Min Na while also parting with Zach Cates.

  106. Brautigan Says:

    Jesus, the Padres continue to remain “stupid”.

    Did anyone see Cashner’s AFL numbers? They were horrific. Not a great starting point in his return from injury.

  107. Bob Says:

    Yeah, score this one for the Cubs.

  108. Raul Says:

    Dave Duncan is leaving the Cardinals for a while because his wife is ill with brain cancer.

    How unfortunate.
    I wish him and his family well.

  109. Bob Says:

    @ 108. Ditto.

  110. Brautigan Says:

    My wife had a brain tumor in 1996. She underwent 30 radiation treatments and several months of chemo. It was a roaring success. The weird thing is, she had a rare form of brain tumor that usually struck only elderly males and was only identified in 3% of all brain tumors. Today, she is tumor free and doing well.

    I can only hope and pray Mrs. Duncan has a similar outcome. The majority of brain tumors are invasive and either kill or leave lasting scars and disabilities. Again, I can only hope that she has a form of tumor that is not invasive, is bulky and can be identified and treated with laser surgery.

    My prayers to their family.

  111. Mike Felber Says:

    It is unusual when i am defending Jack Morris. His .390 Era & 105 ERA + are decent for his era, & as Lefty’s observations imply, he was somewhat better than this for some years. He just did not have a career 7 peak value to justify the HOF. Neither did Catfish, with the same ERA +.

    But nobody would say a picther with this career & peak year ERA + during the dead ball era, or ’60’s & ’70’s such. And Morris did better than I expected looking at FIP (fangraphs.com).

    Pettitte could get in years from now, though he may well be seen as what he is-not so far from deserving, but not enough career & peak value. Moose is better, clearly worthy.

  112. John Says:

    I’m looking at fangraphs right now, Mike.

    Morris had a FIP of 3.94. How is that good?

    The formula for FIP includes a scaling factor to put it on roughly the same scale as ERA.

    I see his career WAR is 57 on fangraphs. Yes, this is better than on bbref, but fangraphs (and this is my biggest gripe with their calculations) sets a “replacement” winning percentage lower than bbref. So, pretty much everyone gets a boost.

  113. Mike Felber Says:

    John, good questions. I was unaware of the scale of FIP. Yes, FG is often higher than BR.com, but not always, & that is one of the larger gaps. Actually with his defenses it is not surprising that he is not better using FIP/DIP.

    But the gaps for him between the 2 WAR systems is larger than most picthers. i mean just from informally eyeballing it. I wonder why that is?

  114. Raul Says:


    I’m happy to read that your wife is doing well.
    Now if only we can get you and her to root for the Yankees…

  115. Chuck Says:

    Dear John,

    (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

    I have an interview with the Brewers on Tuesday.

    More minor league operations than scouting from what I’ve been told, but, really, who cares, right?


  116. John Says:

    Good luck, man! I hope you get it, that farm system’s gonna need some work!

  117. Chuck Says:

    Jack Morris was the ace of the 1984 Tigers.

    On the ‘68 Tigers he would have been a reliever.

    Screw him.

    Hall of Famers would have kicked ass in any era.

    Morris doesn’t qualify.

  118. John Says:

    Even on the 1984 Tigers, Morris ranked just third on the starting rotation in ERA. He also ranked third on the staff in winning percentage.

    He might’ve been the ace, but Dan Petry had the best season of anyone on that staff.

  119. Chuck Says:

    Thanks John,

    ‘preciate it.

    A friend who works with them already set it up. He works full time from January to April, part time from April to June, full time again til August, then part time again til the end of the year except the Fall League.

    I imagine I’ll be taking a pay cut, but hopefully it’s not so bad.

    I’ve worked in sports before and found the “benefits” much better than the salary, but as a married guy with a child now that doesn’t work, so hopefully they at least offer something manageable..if at all.

  120. Chuck Says:

    Morris pitched two of the most clutch games I’ve ever seen.

    He had balls bigger than a T-Rex, and no way he was losing either game.

    That said, leading a decade in wins is equal to leading your junior high school basketball team in free throw percentage.

    I got more blowjobs in the ’80’s than Morris had wins and I’m not on the ballot.

    Something’s wrong there.

  121. John Says:

    “Morris pitched two of the most clutch games I’ve ever seen.”

    What was the other one that you’re referring to?

    “That said, leading a decade in wins is equal to leading your junior high school basketball team in free throw percentage.”

    Agreed. Even if wins were meaningful, “1980-1989″ is a completely arbitrary cutoff. There weren’t any new expansion teams in 1980 or 1989, no fundamental rule changes to speak of. It’s just ten years that start with 198.

    Frank Viola led baseball in wins from 1984-1993.
    Louisiana Lightning led baseball in wins from 1977-1986.

  122. Chuck Says:

    “Frank Viola led baseball in wins from 1984-1993.
    Louisiana Lightning led baseball in wins from 1977-1986.”

    Both of whom are more HOF worthy than Jack Morris.

  123. Chuck Says:

    “What was the other one that you’re referring to?”

    October 3, 1987.

    Game 161, Tigers have one game lead on Toronto with two to play.

    Jays are in Detroit to end season.

    Tigers lose Friday, Morris goes to mound on Saturday against Mike Flanagan, Tigers win, they clinch the East, loss, tie heading to Game 162.

    Morris clutches it out and wins, pitching nine.


  124. John Says:

    Check out the Blue Jays starter for that game…

    11 IP.

  125. Raul Says:

    Why is it taking so long for Prince Fielder to sign?

  126. Chuck Says:


    Check out who it was.


    Just a guess..thirty teams aren’t buying the load of crap Scott Boras is selling?

  127. John Says:

    Right, I noticed.

  128. Mike Felber Says:

    Good luck on that Job Chuck, that would be a coup, side benefits or not.

    I agree, & previously argued at length, about Morris not being a HOF man. And all the other observations, decade being arbitrary, run support…Saying he sucked seemed way harsh, though i trust that you just like harsh exaggeration. Though just like teams, offense & run support can mask real performance, so can a great performance. Morris was great in those games, but had no ability to be so when measuring all close/key games, regular or post season.

    If crucial games go well, we retroactively recall them as clutch. This does not deny his cojones & accomplishments, just to say that it just seemed like he could not lose. Any good pitcher for many years in enough of those situations will have several great performances. Selection bias makes us forget the mediocre & worse key outings.

  129. Raul Says:

    Jorge Posada is set to retire.
    No, he is not a Hall of Famer.

    Mike Piazza will get in.
    Ivan Rodriguez probably will also.

  130. Chuck Says:

    “Ivan Rodriguez probably will also”

    Doubt it.


  131. Raul Says:

    I think the voters will hold it against him, Chuck.

    Eventually, I think he gets in — perhaps unfairly, but because he never really threatened any records as a result of his use.

  132. Chuck Says:

    “but because he never really threatened any records as a result of his use.”

    I beg to differ..he’s 156 hits away from 3000.

    He’s the all time hits leader for a catcher by more than 500.

    He’s the all time leader in games caught by over 200.

    If Jesus Christ manifested himself into human form and came to earth as a 5′9″, 190 pound catcher he wouldn’t possess the almighty power necessary to catch 2000 games.

  133. Raul Says:

    Didn’t realize he was the leader by so many.

    My bad.

  134. John Says:

    His biggest legacy, of course, will be his unparalleled defensive capabilities…and you have to determine how much of that is due to steroids.

    In Pudge’s case, I would say, a whole freaking lot. Guy had a cannon and could throw out runners from his squat with ease. 46% CS rate for his career is pretty insane.

    Of course, that’s just a part of what a catcher does defensively, and Pudge excelled all around.

    Chuck’s right, the longevity is crazy, and voters will probably hold the suspected steroid use against him, especially since he’s actually been implicated by something besides “having muscles in the 1990’s”

  135. Mike Felber Says:

    I did not know all that about Pudge also. If those implications were not there, he would be a no-brainer.

    I wonder if Easterners who are used to squatting all their lives would have an easier time with long careers as catchers?

  136. Mike Felber Says:

    Funny career for a guy who likely used ‘roids. He had a normal peak with the bat, between 25 & 32. Then never had a 100 OPS +. Though excellent late in CS: #1 in % 9 times, & the active leader in em! He is also #2 ALL TIME in GIDP, yet somehow managed a 10-1 SB record one year.

    Why was he not raking late if he was using PEDs? I am not arguing he did not use them, it is just an unusual pattern.

  137. Cameron Says:

    Back, sorry for the absence. My video card died on me for a few days. Replacement should be in by Wednesday. Appearances until then may be rare.

  138. Cameron Says:

    “Joe Torre will resin from his pot, and bid on the Dodgers. Too lazy to research it completely, but i think we have:
    1. Magic Johnson and his group.
    2. Steve Garvey and his group.
    3. Mark Cuban
    4.The former owner of the Buffalo Sabres and his group.
    5. Joe Tore and his group.
    6. Is this list accurate?
    7. Thanks in advance for the answer.”

    You forgot former Dodgers owner Peter O’Malley.

  139. Raul Says:

    I’ve never heard of anyone resigning their pot.
    That stuff is expensive.

  140. brautigan Says:

    Not in Oregon Raul, it is $100 an ounce now.

    Liberal policies having a positive impact on the economy, I’d say.

  141. Raul Says:


  142. Bob Says:

    Chuck, good luck with the interview.

  143. Chuck Says:

    Thanks, Bob.

  144. Cameron Says:

    And the Dodgers now have another bidder, a group headlined by the Disney family.

    …For fuck’s sake, IT’S THE DODGERS! WHO CARES!?

  145. Raul Says:

    Little over 2 hours until the saberheads demonize or applaud the voters over Tim Raines.

    My feeling is if Raines gets elected or shows significant improvement, they’ll say the voters are idiots but “finally got it right”.


    So back to Prince Fielder…at this point, with every major 1B signed and nearly every large market team out of the picture, why would anyone consider giving this man anywhere close to 100 million? — much less 200?

  146. Chuck Says:

    Mike Silva ran a poll on his site over the past month.

    Bagwell was the leading vote getter with 61%


    I expect Larkin to get in (he shouldn’t, but different argument), but we could see the first empty ballot in some time.

    This is Raines’ last chance, if his totals go up it’s because of the lack of overall quality on the ballot, not because he’s worthy of the extra attention.

  147. Chuck Says:

    Boras is on crack if he thinks he’s getting $200 for Fielder.

    Probably the only reason he hasn’t signed yet..there’s a handful of teams interested, but not at his asking price.

    He’ll have to come waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy down.

  148. Raul Says:

    If he wants to win, he’s going to Texas.

    If he goes to Washington, it’s because they bid significantly more than Texas.
    Long-term, maybe Washington has the brighter future. I’m not sure.

    But neither team can afford a 100 million dollar DH.

  149. Chuck Says:

    The fact Texas seems more interested in paying $125 million for a AAA pitcher and won’t even talk with Boras about Fielder tells me just how interested they really are.

    Personally, the longer he remains unsigned, the higher the likelihood he goes back to Milwaukee.

  150. Raul Says:


    I mean this is getting ridiculous for a supposed “top tier player”.

    We’re practically a month away from Spring Training. Typically the kinds of players that aren’t signed by now are 35 year old pitchers and platoon players.

  151. Chuck Says:

    If people can’t see the difference between Pujols and Fielder they’re blind.

    When he’s 35, Pujols will still be an offensive force, and while he might start getting off day games after night games or occassionally DH’ing, like ARod is now, he still can go out and play the field 120 games a year.

    When he’s 35, Fielder will be Matt Stairs.

    Who wants to be on the hook for a $100 million and a no-trade for Matt Stairs?

  152. Lefty33 Says:

    “We’re practically a month away from Spring Training. Typically the kinds of players that aren’t signed by now are 35 year old pitchers and platoon players.”

    Very true.

    It’s almost a collusion-esque environment this year.

    Gammons wrote about this recently where he said he was surprised at the level of quality talent still out there and it has all been driven by the “Haves” of NY, PHL, LA (Dodgers), CHI, BOS either not spending (due to supposed fear of the new luxury tax penalties) or not being able to spend and the teams that are left are not really able to land a guy like Fielder because they don’t possess the needed revenue/want to spend 25 million per on him and actually still put out something other than eight AAAA players on the field along with him.

    On a sidebar Chuck let me throw my good wishes in as well with the interview.

  153. Raul Says:

    Matt Stairs played until like age 42 or something.

    I don’t think Fielder will play that long.

  154. Lefty33 Says:

    “Matt Stairs played until like age 42 or something.”


  155. John Says:

    No one has any problem distinguishing Pujols from Fielder.

    When Pujols is 35, the year will be 2015, or possibly sooner.

    When Fielder is 35, it’ll be 2020.

    That counts for something.

  156. Raul Says:

    Historically, has there been a player as fat as Fielder that was effective at 35+ years?

    Serious question. I don’t know.

  157. John Says:

    I can’t even think of a player who’s ever been as fat as Fielder, period.

    But even an 8 year deal would make him 35a at the very end…and you expect to overpay for those last years when you make a deal. Price of doing business.

  158. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 156 – There have been a few pitchers I can think of that hung around that were huge like Terry Forster, Bob Wickman (led the AL in saves at 36), Jumbo Brown (‘41 Giants), El Sid, Rich Garces, and Charlie Kerfeld.

    But in terms of position players?

    Big dudes were guys like maybe Mo Vaughn? Kevin Mitchell? Terry Pendelton? Cecil and maybe Boog Powell.

  159. Raul Says:

    Mitchell was fat?

    I just thought he was big. Kind of a strong dude. I must be imagining his younger years.

  160. Lefty33 Says:

    By ‘98 he had a different idea of what a Baseball doughnut was.


  161. Raul Says:

    I’m curious as to the argument against Barry Larkin to be elected to the HOF

  162. Lefty33 Says:

    I was just reading a piece that Verducci wrote where he said Posada deserves “strong consideration” for the HOF and that he put up a borderline HOF career.

    Apparently he uses the word borderline differently than I do.

    And the HOF?

    I just fell off my chair with a laughing spasm.

    There’s a better chance of Sean Connery going on SNL and mocking himself during a Celebrity Jeopardy skit.

  163. Raul Says:

    If Simmons aint in, Posada can forget it.

    Gene Tenace has got a better shot…

  164. Lefty33 Says:

    “If Simmons aint in, Posada can forget it”


    “Gene Tenace has got a better shot…”

    Gene Simmons has got a better shot

  165. Brautigan Says:

    Prince Fielder weighed more when he was 12 years old. He has been big all his life and so far, he has exceeded any expectations I have had of him as a ballplayer. That said, he has that famed skill set that evaporates pretty quickly when he hits his prime and moves past his prime.

  166. Brautigan Says:

    @ 120: The reason you’re not in the HOF was the quality of opponents, or in this case, the quality of the suckers.

    Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

    Also, I read where they have already debulked Mrs. Duncan’s tumor and she is still receiving treatment. That does not bode well at all…..again, my thoughts and prayers to the Duncan family. This is not an easy time for them.

  167. Cameron Says:

    “Historically, has there been a player as fat as Fielder that was effective at 35+ years?

    Serious question. I don’t know.”

    They mentioned Boog Powell already, David Ortiz is pretty fat if you ask me, Jason Giambi let himself go when he hit the Bronx, gimme some time and I might come up with others.

  168. Raul Says:

    Love how John makes that reference to Derek Jeter in his write-up on Alan Trammel above.

    As if Alan Trammel was better than Derek Jeter.
    Even as you clowns trash Jeter for his defense, he’s still, easily, the 2nd or 3rd best shortstop ever.

  169. Raul Says:

    Only Barry Larkin.

  170. Cameron Says:

    Congrats, Captain Larkin. Growing up a Reds fan, you were one of my heroes.

  171. Raul Says:

    Bagwell goes from 41.7% to 56%.
    Raines goes from 37.5% to 49%.

    With the classes coming up in the next 5 years, it’s gonna be really interesting.

  172. Cameron Says:

    Bagwell can get in, I think Raines got enough of a swell to have a Blyleven/Rice-esque induction.

  173. John Says:

    Defense counts in baseball, Raul.

    When you count defense, Jeter isn’t that much more elite than Larking or Trammel.

  174. Raul Says:

    You’d have to be lying to yourself if you don’t think this HOF class was one of the weakest in years.

    For Bagwell and Raines not to get close or elected in this election…it’s gotta be disheartening for them.

  175. Cameron Says:

    For Raines it might be, but Bagwell’s at 50% his second year on the ballot. That’s a goddamn lock if I ever saw one.

  176. Chuck Says:

    Nothing changes, the increase is more a reflection of a bad ballot than anything else.

    I fully expect both these guys to remain in the 35-45 range for awhile.

    Bagwell may eventually get in, Raines’ has no chance.

    Same ol’, same ol’.

  177. Cameron Says:

    35-45 for Bagwell? You really expect a 10-20% drop by next year? Not saying it can’t happen, but bold prediction.

  178. Chuck Says:

    He went up that much Cam, why not down?

  179. Cameron Says:

    Looking at next year’s ballot… It may only just be Mike Piazza getting in. Guy was BY FAR the greatest-hitting catcher of all time. I don’t think Schilling is a first-ballot guy and Biggio isn’t gonna blow anyone away for a first-year induction.

    As for Sosa, Clemens, and Bonds… No.

  180. Cameron Says:

    From what I’ve seen, Chuck, vote totals usually remain pretty consistent and if they drop, it’s not that steep.

  181. Lefty33 Says:

    “For Bagwell and Raines not to get close or elected in this election…it’s gotta be disheartening for them.”

    Not at all.

    If anything it’ll be more disheartening when Raines loses 10-12% next year and that holds through at least 2015-2016.

    Bagwell is a lock and short of some smoking gun he’ll get there in 4-5 years.

    The Raines thing, like Chuck said, is more a product of the “We got to vote for someone” mentality than him actually having real HOF merit.

    Morris will get the Jim Rice treatment in 2014 and Raines will get back to 49% maybe if he’s lucky in 2017-2018.

  182. Raul Says:

    I really don’t understand how a guy can get elected after 10-12 years on a ballot.

    Either you’re a hall of famer or you’re not.
    The minimum percentage required to remain on the ballot needs to be increased to like 25 or 35% or something.

    Ballots have 10 slots? Something like that? How can you NOT be one of those 10 names on 75% of the ballots in this year? — much less for 10-12-15 years — if you were truly that great?

  183. Cameron Says:

    Not everyone uses those 10 slots, Raul. There’s guys who turn in blank ballots they’re such snobs.

    …Seriously, who turns in a BLANK Hall of Fame ballot? Rickey Henderson, Tom Seaver, and Cal Ripken, all had extremely high percentages but there were always a couple jackasses with blank ballots.

  184. Chuck Says:

    Everyone went up.

    The only guy who was on the ballot last year who went down was Juan Gonzalez, who never should have been on the ballot in the first place.

    Christ, Bill Fucking Mueller got four votes.

  185. Bob Says:

    And Tony Womack got a vote.

  186. Lefty33 Says:

    “Either you’re a hall of famer or you’re not.”

    If it were only that simple.

    Did you see the MLB Network broadcast today?

    After they announced Larkin, Verducci and the other two dopes were talking about how when a guy like Morris gets this close the one guy (I forget which one) said he felt compelled to vote for him because he didn’t want to be the one guy that kept Morris out.

    So it’s good to know that a guy’s record means nothing once he gets over 50% since no one who has ever gotten over that number and missed.

    Because peer pressure beats stats every time.

  187. Cameron Says:

    I’m with Chuck. How the fuck did Juan Gonzalez survive last year after the steroid shit?

  188. Lefty33 Says:

    “There’s guys who turn in blank ballots they’re such snobs.”

    Not really.

    If there was ever a blank ballot worthy year it was this year.

    A blank ballot is not against the rules and if anything it’s snobby to think that voters have to vote for guys just because they are on the ballot.

    A weak/pathetic class is a weak/pathetic class.

  189. Cameron Says:

    I know Lefty, but I mean EVERY YEAR, regardless of class strength, gets a few blanks. Look me in the eyes and tell me Tom Seaver’s not a Hall of Famer.

  190. Chuck Says:

    “So it’s good to know that a guy’s record means nothing once he gets over 50% since no one who has ever gotten over that number and missed”

    Well, first time for everything, because Morris isn’t getting in.

    Starting next year, with guys like Johnson and Maddux, etc, he’s a freakin’ afterthought.

    Jack who?

  191. Lefty33 Says:

    “Look me in the eyes and tell me Tom Seaver’s not a Hall of Famer.”

    I never said he wasn’t but there’s a difference between voting for no one with a blank ballot and voting for stupid or homer choices.

    Larkin got votes from 15 of the 16 MLB.com BBWAA eligible writers.

    Ken Gurnick didn’t vote for Larkin instead he voted for Morris and Smith.

    I mean everyone knew Larkin would get inducted today but he went another direction. Stupid but it’s allowed.

  192. Bob Says:

    Q. Jack who?
    A. Jack Meoff!!

  193. John Says:

    Chuck said Raines would be off the ballot by now.

    He’s at 50%.

    He needs 2.5% per year to get in, having gained 20 in two years.

    Every new voter votes for him.

    He’s getting in…not sure if this website will stick around long enough to say I told you so.

    Congrats Barry!

  194. Lefty33 Says:

    “Well, first time for everything, because Morris isn’t getting in.”

    Dinner at Morton’s says he will.

    “Starting next year, with guys like Johnson and Maddux, etc, he’s a freakin’ afterthought.”

    Except that Maddux isn’t up until ‘14 and Johnson in ‘15.

    Next year outside of Piazza there is no clear first ballot guy and that’s where Morris either sneaks in or gets close enough that a Rice-like 15th year sympathy vote in ‘14 is inevitable, deserving or not.

  195. Chuck Says:

    “Dinner at Morton’s says he will.”

    Dinner at Morton’s if he’s elected by the BBWAA.

    Dinner at Burger King if he’s a VC.

    Keep dreamin’, John.

  196. Lefty33 Says:

    “He needs 2.5% per year to get in, having gained 20 in two years.”

    Except that he’s going to stagnate/go in reverse starting next year.

  197. Lefty33 Says:

    “Dinner at Burger King if he’s a VC.”

    Since you’re out West at least bump it up to In-N-Out.

  198. Chuck Says:

    That works.

  199. Raul Says:

    It is true that Raines and Bagwell showed an increase in percentage this year.
    But nearly every returning player on the ballot showed an increase this year, with the exception of Mark McGwire and Juan Gonzalez.

  200. Brautigan Says:

    Congrats Barry Larkin. I’m not a big supporter, but then, I do think this selection is deserving.

    Ok, someone help me here. What makes Jeff “Zits” Bagwell HOF worthy, but not Mark “It’s Andro in my locker” McGwire?

  201. Chuck Says:

    “What makes Jeff “Zits” Bagwell HOF worthy, but not Mark “It’s Andro in my locker” McGwire?”


  202. Raul Says:

    @ Braut 200
    @ Chuck 201

    …Mike Felber would say there’s no evidence Bagwell cheated. Because he’s the most naive man alive since Chevy Chase in National Lampoon’s Vacation.

  203. Cameron Says:

    “See all this plight, kids?”

  204. brautigan Says:

    Worse BCS game EVER.

  205. Cameron Says:

    See LSU’s score? That’s the number of fucks I give about the BCS Championship Game. …And NCAA football in general.

  206. Raul Says:

    As long as teams like Boise State get screwed, I won’t care about the BCS.

  207. Chuck Says:

    BCS stands for Bull Crap System.

  208. Bob Says:

    The Cubs signed Paul Maholm. This may allow Theo to trade Matt Garza. I read that the Tigers were in serious discussions, although I do not think the Tigers should part with Nick Castellanos.
    Perhaps just me.

  209. Raul Says:

    Speaking of the Pirates…

    Will Pedro Alvarez finish the 2012 season a Pirate?

  210. Chuck Says:

    I said it then, and I still believe it today.

    The Pirates made a big mistake in taking Gerrit Cole.

    They should have taken Anthony Rendon.

    I wasn’t impressed at all with Alvarez in college and thought he would struggle with wood bats..all those doubles to left center with aluminum bats would be outs in the pros..and I was right.

    Having a plus defender (Rendon) at third is better than having a poor defender at third or at first, and in Pittsburgh’s case now..both places.

    Ask Seattle how it is to have three or four stud pitching prospects and a Bad News Bears offense.

  211. Raul Says:

    Fair point.

    If Pittsburgh is gonna move to establish themselves as NL Central contenders, now is the time with Pujols and Fielder out of the division

  212. Mike Felber Says:

    OK, you want a piece of me again, huh Raul? ;-)

    It is not at all naive to say there is absolutely no substantive evidence against Baggy. Zits & muscles, you gotta be kidding me. Neither condition, in typoe or degree was very unusual. I reviewed in Talmudic detail how someone with just decent potential & access to the best training & nutrition could get his size in his time frame. Someone else noted his build/structure being promising early on.

    That was Andro in Bog Mac’s locker, & even with him, it was no pretty much foregone conclusion he cheated before his Congressional clam up. And Bagwell never had arms of near that size. There are also guys Big Mac’s muscular size who are clean, & easily have that potential, like Frank Thomas & tons of football players.

    I have nor argued much about who will definitely get in or not, because I do not know well. But given the unpredictability of it, & many here proven wrong about the trends, I would say that there is no good way to know on most of the debatable cases. Too many things could change, an increase or decline in support could snowball or stagnate.

    Though lefty is right that it is dumb to vote for anybody due to being close or sympathy. Unless they are worthy, whether they are close or not is irrelevant.

  213. Raul Says:

    There’s tons of evidence Bags cheated.

    You’re just naive. Or in denial.

  214. Bob Says:

    It appears that Bud Selig will be offered an extension.

  215. Raul Says:

    Pretty sure Selig was going to retire.

    Apparently he needs to eke out a few more years of that 20 million dollar salary he’s been receiving.

    After all, it’s hard out there for a pimp…

  216. Bob Says:

    Lety’s take a quik look at next years ballot. Morris is the front-runner, whether or not you like him.
    1. Bonds-does he get in on his first try?
    2. Clemens- Same question
    3. Biggio- Yes, he gets in.
    4. Piazza- Yes, he gets in. 5. Sosa- Even if you do not think he had anything in his closet, he had cork in his bat.
    5. Schilling- The one guy whose vote total I am actually interested in.
    6.Sosa. Even if you think he was clean( Seriously) we all KNOW his bat was not.

  217. Raul Says:

    Piazza gets in.
    No one else.

    Biggio doesn’t belong.
    Neither does Schilling.

  218. Lefty33 Says:

    1. “Bonds-does he get in on his first try?”

    Bonds will not get in next year.

    “2. Clemens- Same question”

    Clemens will not get in next year.

    “3. Biggio- Yes, he gets in.”

    Biggio will get very good support and will make it in time but I think he falls a bit short next year.

    “4. Piazza- Yes, he gets in.”

    If Larkin can get 86% then Piazza should get 96%.

    “5. Sosa- Even if you do not think he had anything in his closet, he had cork in his bat.”

    He’ll put up Raffy-like numbers.

    “6. Schilling- The one guy whose vote total I am actually interested in”

    No chance next year but if Morris can get over 60% then he’s a lock at some point in the future.

    ‘13 – Piazza & Morris

    ‘14 – Maddux, Thomas, Glavine

    ‘15 – Johnson & Biggio

    A long term sleeper choice off of the ‘13 ballot to make the HOF in the distant future?

    Kenny Lofton

    These are not who I want to get in but who I feel are inevitable at getting in.

  219. Chuck Says:

    Jeff Bagwell was the Tony Montana of MLB.

    Derek Bell is/was a very religious guy, and demanded a trade from Houston because of all the drugs in the clubhouse, steriods and otherwise.

    Bagwell, Biggio, Caminiti, Richard Hidalgo, Joaquin Andujar, the list is virtually endless.

    If you honestly believe OJ Simpson killed his wife despite no murder weapon, despite no physical evidence, despite the gloves not fitting, and yet need the needle or the prescription bottle or cancelled checks or postal receipts to believe Bagwell used steriods, then you are an ignorant douche.

    Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways.

    You’re all hypocrites.

  220. Chuck Says:

    I’m a HOF member.

    I pay $40 bucks a year to support the Hall and in return get this really bitching membership card with my name on it and a few HOF related publications every year.

    Plus ten percent off merchandise and free admission, which I’ve never used, because, you know, Phoenix and Cooperstown aren’t exactly neighboring cities.

    If Jack Morris is elected I will cancel my membership.

  221. Bob Says:

    Chuck, then you must believe that Jim Rice is more deserving than Jack Morris? To be fair, I have pondered the question at time, but favor Morris over Rice because of three things.
    1. 1984
    2. 1991
    3. 1992

  222. Bob Says:

    1. The Mariners signed Aaron Heilman
    2. Time for the New Hampshire results.

  223. John Says:

    Neither is worthy, but at least Rice had Hall of Fame caliber seasons.

  224. Cameron Says:

    And Morris wasn’t “feared”.

  225. Brautigan Says:

    Cam: You never pissed Black Jack off.

    Chuck: You’re money would be better spent on SABR memebership & publications. I read Billy Werber’s book a couple of months ago. Not a classic, but interesting reading.

  226. Cameron Says:

    I’d imagine Morris could be a scary guy when needed, but I always love throwing the “feared” tag around on guys that were called that back in the day. Jim Rice, Frank Robinson, Joe Morgan.

    Joe Morgan, generally considered a very nice man, was considered “feared”. …Guys just say black.

  227. Raul Says:

    Last week Fernando Rodney signed with the Rays, and Andrew Brackman signed with the Reds.

  228. Brautigan Says:

    A district attorney wrote a book about the Simpson-Goldman murder. He took all the evidence presented at trial, including reviews of the police reports and files. He basically laid it out for a layman to discover the evidence and come up with your own conclusions. Basically, the evidence points to someone else doing the murder, and that Simpson was enroute to the scene, arrived, found something nefarious going on WITH his children in the house and drove back to his home. It is postulated that Simpson is so narcissistic that he preferred to be considered a “murderer” than a “coward”.

    I mentioned this to a friend of mine who is in the “know” and his first response was, “Marcus Allen did it”. I thought he was joking. He was dead serious.

    Also, how many people know that Mark Furman, the policeman accused of “planting the evidence”, dated Nicole Simpson?

  229. Cameron Says:

    Fernando Rodney from closer to zero in two years. God damn did he ever fall off a cliff.

  230. Chuck Says:


    I’ve been a SABR member for 22 years.

  231. Chuck Says:

    “Fernando Rodney from closer to zero in two years.”

    Well, being a zero is the main qualification to become a closer in the first place, so, where else can they go?

  232. Cameron Says:

    You can go from being good at one inning to being good at zero innings. You don’t think that sounds like a bad thing, but he lost his job to a platoon of two rookies. Now that’s a fuckup of monumental proportions.

  233. brautigan Says:

    Chuck: Let me tell you how much I am not surprised.

    22 years. Nice.

  234. brautigan Says:

    Stat heads will find fault with Fernando Rodney. With good reason.
    Traditional voices will say, “you gotta throw strikes”.

    Fernando Rodney is like gas to a fire. The on base percentage for the first batter he faced in his career is .374. You want that figure closing games? You want that figure coming into close game situations? Me neither.

    Rodney has closer stuff. Mid 90’s gas and a difficult change. Righties struggle with his slider. You would love to have that repetoire in your closer. But, you gotta throw strikes.

  235. Cameron Says:

    Braut, the problem with Rodney is when he throws strikes, they’re the kind that sit right over the plate and get fucking drilled. When he does throw strikes, it’s never pretty.

  236. brautigan Says:

    I beg to differ. Hitters have hit .243 off of Rodney. They’ve slugged .368. That is respectable. The .346 career on base % is not. (Andy Pettite for his career gave up a .398 slugging by comparison).

    Man, you’re making Rodney out to be Diego Segui.

  237. brautigan Says:

    Did I just hear Vince Vaughn go “ka-ching”?

  238. brautigan Says:

    Apologies to Diego Segui. I was thinking of Orlando Pena circa 1964.

  239. Raul Says:

    On this date, January 10th, 1963 the Chicago Cubs became the first team to hire an athletic director (Robert Whitlow). It would appear that it helped. The team improved from 59-103 in 1962 to a record of 82-80 in 1963. Unfortunately, they still finished in 7th place.

    A funny thing about the Cubs. They’ve had some great players in their history. Care to guess who led the team in WAR the most times? Sammy Sosa with 8. Ok that was easy. But kudos to you if you guessed Rick Reuschel was 2nd with 7 seasons of leading the Cubs in WAR.

    On this date in 1992, the Yankees trade Steve Sax to the White Sox for Melido Perez, Bob Wickman and Domingo Jean. I once met Pascual Perez in the Dominican Republic. Nice man, but he sure is ugly.

    On this date in 1991, the Baltimore Orioles trade Curt Schilling, Pete Harnisch and Steve Finley to the Houston Astros for Glenn Davis. Shrewd.

  240. Cameron Says:

    Melido Perez… Timo?

  241. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 240 – http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/perezme01.shtml

  242. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 220 – “If Jack Morris is elected I will cancel my membership.”

    Sweet because that $40 you’ll save will just about cover the Filet you’ll owe me at Morton’s when he gets inducted!

  243. Lefty33 Says:

    The Phillies yesterday released John Bowker clearing a 40 man roster spot for what looks like the signing of Kerry Wood or the resigning of Brad Lidge to provide extra veteran depth in the bullpen as there are huge doubts about the ability of Contreras to make it through the season and not get hurt again.

  244. Cameron Says:

    You’re worried about an old reliever getting hurt… So you’re looking at Brad Lidge and Kerry Wood? That’s like trying to put out a fire with grease.

  245. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, anyone who can type can assert premises & present zero evidence. If you decide to again initiate a gratuitous comment about me (most naive man ever…) about an issue I was not even discussing, prepare to provide some.

    A while back I in detail rebutted the flimsy circumstantial evidence re: how big he got & when. His injury also was not unusual for someone lifting heavy. If you find him dirty with no good evidence, maybe you are jus’ the most CYNICAL man alive!

    I am exaggerating, but that is how you like to generalize.

    Chuck. no need to name call “ignorant douche” if someone honestly comes to a different opinion than you. Yes, that is bad: either malicious or childish.

    There was not no physical evidence. the car had some of it, & the glove did not really “not fit”. That was smart theater that should have been addressed. But more importantly, if folks have a different interpretation of very different cases, they could be right or wrong, but the specifics are so distinct, hypocrisy cannot be rationally invoked.

    Brautigan, do you believe that O.J. was an innocent coward? This i find quite unlikely, though i suppose it is possible he could have been covering for Allen & his reputation, but to prefer a murder rap, with the risk of life in imprisonment…I doubt it. Plus who else would have the same motivation?

  246. Cameron Says:

    I’m sorry, but the fuck kind of motivation would Marcus Allen have to kill OJ’s wife? That has to be one of the most cracktastic things I’ve ever heard, and I hang out with some insane fucking people.

  247. Chuck Says:

    “Sweet because that $40 you’ll save will just about cover the Filet you’ll owe me at Morton’s \..”

    I take it it’s been awhile since you’ve been to Mortons…

    $40 won’t cover the bar tab and the appetizers.

  248. Chuck Says:

    “A while back I in detail rebutted the flimsy circumstantial evidence…”

    You didn’t rebutt anything, Mike.

    As is usually the case with you, you end up typing “blah, blah, blah” 500 times, and when you’re done nothing’s changed.

    Every sabermetric knucklehead on the planet believes Bagwell to be in the top four or five first baseman in the history of the game, and not only was he not a first ballot selection, he’s not close to being elected now and wont’ be for another few years.

    Why is that?

    And don’t blame the BBWAA either, that’s weak sauce and you know it.

    He used.

    It’s obvious he used.

    I respect your opinion to think otherwise.

    But don’t talk to us like we’re the idiots.

  249. Lefty33 Says:

    “So you’re looking at Brad Lidge and Kerry Wood? That’s like trying to put out a fire with grease.”

    I agree.

    Also Madson agreed to a one year deal with the Reds to be their closer for 8 1/2.

    I guess the Boras thinking is that there was no market for him this year long term due to the plethora of closers but if he can produce in Cincy he’ll be the “big name” closer on the market next year so then he can try and whip teams into a lather with Madson being the “best” out there.

    In the short term Boras fucked him out of money because Madson would have gotten more via arbitration by staying in Philly.

  250. Cameron Says:

    Maybe no one who wanted a long-term closer was left. Tampa never commits to a guy long-term, I know Boston’s set on using Bailey, Texas has about three different guys to fall back on if Feliz moves.

    The only teams that really don’t have a steady closer aren’t the kind of teams that’ll give big money long-term to them. Houston, Oakland, San Diego, they don’t wanna spend and if they do it’s going to someone with more impact.

    Madson hurt himself by dragging his feet more than anything.

  251. Lefty33 Says:

    “$40 won’t cover the bar tab and the appetizers.”

    I was only talking about just the steak.

    I figured I’ll let you off easy with such a sucker bet. ;-)

  252. Jim Says:

    Not only did Madson settle for one year, he’s getting ‘only’ $8.5M. I suspect this isn’t the payday that Ryan expected.

  253. Chuck Says:

    Jeez, Lefty, thanks for the concern…:)

    Seriously, though, gonna do it, gonna do it right.

    I may have to take out a second mortgage to cover the check, but, what the hell.

  254. Raul Says:

    Young pitcher with ability gets called up.
    To protect him, team puts him in the bullpen to limit innings.
    Pitcher excels.
    Fans clamor to keep pitcher as a closer/reliever.
    After a year or two, team puts pitcher back on path to be starter.
    Pitcher struggles.
    Team puts pitcher back in bullpen.
    Player value diminishes.

  255. Bob Says:

    Raul, you think the Sox are making a mistake installing Daniel Bard as a starter?

  256. Raul Says:

    I think the Sox should have kept Bard and Papelbon on track to have been starters to begin with.

  257. Brautigan Says:

    Psssst: Marcus Allen dated Nicole Simpson too.

    Go to Los Angeles and ask people “in the know”. They’ll tell you the same thing, something is fishy. But hey, it is the city of Angels. Weirder things have happened.

  258. Raul Says:

    Vicki Morgan @ Braut.

  259. Bob Says:

    Luke Scott signed with the Rays.

  260. Raul Says:

    Luke Scott can be a quality bat. Hopefully it’s a low-risk signing.

  261. Bob Says:

    It is a 1-year deal with a 2013 option. Pretty low-risk in the scheme of things.

  262. Brautigan Says:

    I remember the Vicki Morgan case. Wasn’t that the one that had the Reagan officials “alegedly” involved?

    Yup, the city of Angels.

  263. Cameron Says:

    Luke Scott is most likely gonna be the DH, though I could see him play innings at first. Good signing.

  264. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox acquired Brad Emaus. Have to wonder if this is a pre-cursor to another move.
    1. Youk
    2. Scutaro
    3. Aviles
    4. Punto
    5. Emaus

  265. Chuck Says:

    They need a second baseman in Pawtucket?

  266. Bob Says:

    I guess.

  267. Bob Says:

    1. The Yankees signed Preston Mattingly.
    2. Have a good night.

  268. Raul Says:

    A courtesy signing.
    He sucks.

  269. KerryWhisnant Says:

    Hey guys, any comments on the DC Challenge results?

    Chuck and John, feel free to gloat :-)

    BTW, John, if you’re listening, my email to you bounced; has it changed?

  270. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck. My responses have been very detailed & sometimes briefer. But I address every particular objection in detail. Agreeing or not is fine, but I made many specific points, & to just denigrate them as “blah, blah blah”: ironically there is no substance to that response. Unlike what i have written.

    If you respect my opinion to believe otherwise, you would not be thinking I am talking to you as idiots if I feel otherwise. It seems more like an idiocracy to merely state a premise like it is “obvious”, & then get offended if someone disagrees with many specifics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0O7_3o3BrI

    Citing the writers is not weak IF their evaluations are biased. And there is a documentable skittishness about admitting users, as many on all sides of the issue have noted, ’cause they got burned as being dupes, weak, credulous, &/or turning away from reality. Humans tend to be reactionary.

    Bagwell’s actual production is very high, a different issue from how he should be downgraded if he used.

  271. Raul Says:

    The problem, Mike, is you lack common sense.

    CAN a player gain 30 pounds of muscle? Sure. If he’s 150-pound weakling and never lifted a weight in his life.

    For a 180-190 pound athlete to gain 30 pounds of muscle on a small frame (Bagwell is lucky if he’s 5′10) is not going to happen without the juice. It just isn’t.

    Frankly I don’t care if you’re insulted by the name-calling. If you really think that’s probable, you’re just being a naive assh*ole.

  272. Mike Felber Says:

    You SHOULD care Raul. It is not a matter of me/my Ego being hurt by it. It is mean, petty, childish, antithetical to intelligent debate, & causes many to merely attack back. It is more than “probable”. But i wont even poke fun at that mistake, just point out you must have meant problematic. If with the results to ad hominem attacks & personal abuse we have had here, around the Internet & by general acclaim do not seem problematic, that is somewhere between exceedingly naive & deep denial of the obvious.

    Now for your arguments about what you believe is obvious. Which i have addressed at length. I have lifted for years clean, & have seen & spoken to so many folks who have done the same. So let me again correct what i respectfully say are your misapprehensions.

    1) frame 7 height are not at all the same thing. There is a loose correlation between height & thickness/width of bone structure. But many shorter guys have thicker bone structures than taller guys, often in absolute terms.

    2) I doubt either one of us knows Baggy’s exact height/ Listed as 5′11″, likely he is at least very close to that: as you yourself have observed 7 I previously affirmed, being heavier makes you look shorter. As does a wide stance 7 squatting in the batter’s box.

    3) Forget his precise before & after weights, other than to say he was at max 180 lbs., & that likely dressed, before. While rarely do folks putting on muscle not put on any fat, he may have gained 30 lbs. of muscle. Let’s examine that.

    4) He was someone stronger than average, but not with a great deal of bulk. There is no indication he was TRYING to maximize it before. Then he was able to fund top training & nutrition.

    I have seen LOST of guys add that weight, granted usually more slowly, naturally. But they did not have the advantages just mentioned, including plenty of time to work only on this in the off seasons.

    I added a lot of fat-comparing my average weight in my 20’s to my top weight, 70 lbs. total! But I have every reason to believe about 30 lbs. of that was muscle. Meaning looking at increase of amount of weight lifted, or measuring non-fatty areas for muscle, or appearance, or figuring how much fat equals an inch on my waist (about 6 lbs.) About like most guys.

    Bagwell is pushing the envelope re: what most guys with an average frame could develop. He never was as big as, say, a Canseco. He could well have used to reach that level. But the fact that he added 30 lbs. on a build that was documentary leanly muscular is not good evidence he juiced.

    I challenge you: GO TO some serious gyms. Find some guys who have been lifting for years, some who been clean, some not. ASK THEM if over some years, an athlete with decent potential, yet an average bone structure, who is not big at all, but has maintained a leanly muscled body, COULD NORMALLY add 30 lbs. of muscle within several years, WITH the best trainers, motivation, nutrition, & at least 1/2 the year off from work.

    Then tell me what they say.

  273. Raul Says:

    It’s not childish when you CONSISTENTLY fail to see things that are so blatantly obvious.

    It’s one thing to disagree, but nothing ever convinces you of anything.
    What makes you think that Jeff Bagwell is among the miniscule number of potential athletes that can add 30 pounds of muscle LEGITIMATELY in a sport where it is completely unheard of? A sport with (may I fucking remind you) over 130 of history?

    Players have trouble gaining 30 pounds of overall weight THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS. And you’re making some flimsy argument about Jeff Bagwell adding 30 pounds OF MUSCLE????

  274. Raul Says:

    Whatever you see in some gym is completely irrelevant.

    The way baseball is structured, the schedule, the mechanics of the game, it simply does not lend itself to allow a player to gain that much mass. It does not happen.

    People have been making this common sense point to you (people who actually play and are IN baseball) for months now.

    So yeah, it’s perfectly reasonable at this point to call you naive.

  275. Chuck Says:

    The problem with your theory, Mike, again, is bulk is bad for baseball players.

    Your friends at the gym lifting like there’s no tomorrow is entirely different than Jeff Bagwell getting in shape for baseball season.

    A guy I grew up with was a 6′10″ 265 pound NBA power forward who turned to weightlifting to help recover from a shoulder injury.

    The injury cost him his career, but he liked lifting so much he became a competitive bodybuilder.

    He completely changed his body structure.

    He also gained less than 30 pounds during the whole process.

    Bagwell is a 5′10″ 180 pound midget, and gains close to 40 pounds naturally?

    In a sport where that type of weight gain is generally BAD for you?

    You’re all wet, Mike, and to keep arguing about the same thing over and over is only embarrassing yourself.

    But hey, I guess it’s better than talking with the cat.

  276. Mike Felber Says:

    LOl, the 2nd cat died over a year ago Chuck, though he made it past 20! Thanks, I have plenty of folks to talk to, but I like kiecking these issues around. As do you.

    But I enjoy it more when folks pay attention to more granular point, instead of giving the broad overview I have already addressed. Raul, it is mainly, maybe exclusively, you two, who almost always form an amen corner, who disagree with teh DETAILS of what is plausible to do naturally in terms of strength. I also have sometimes said I was wrong-if you have not seen it, that is a matter of lack of attention or memory issues.

    I have responded to this stuff before. I will do so again AND elkaborate with examples. I only ask that any responses are NOT merely general, deal DIRECTLY with my claims & evidence. Thank you.

    Chuck: 5′10″ is an average real height, & as you ignored already, there is no reason to know if he is really the listed 5′ 11″, & several reasons he would look shorter. But that is a trivial point, just instructive of care with details.

    Remember what I said before about your giant friend? When you consider how low his body fat likely was, even at 6′ 10″, your pal was already heavily muscled. Was not Karl Malone? hell yeah, at 6′ 9″ & “only” 257. So these guys are variants of what Rul talked about: the opposite of a string bean starting out. If Karl Malone got fanatically into body building AND kept his body fat attentively low for competition, he likely would also gain less than 30 MORE lbs. of pure muscle.

    I am shocked that you are perpetrating the old myth that bulk is bad for baseball players. Whaaa? Clearly it hurts the mobility/speed of some players. But as has been proved for years, as the record books have been rewritten, & as we see unnatural peaks late in a career a player like Bonds never approached before: even when these are sacrificed, the value of power & increased walks very often WAY more than offset these things.

    If not, nobody/you would have any cause to complain about cheating making a guy a fake success, &/or essentially stealing roster spots.

  277. Cameron Says:

    Nice one, Mike. My oldest cat’s only 16 right now. She’s pretty healthy, though. I’m hoping she makes it past 20.

  278. Mike Felber Says:

    Another point you SKIPPED even addressing Raul (in a debate you would be down for the count):

    Many players can easily gain muscle in the long off season. It is much more difficult in the regular season, though usually guys just maintain then. So you would say that ALL guys who reported to spring training over a 1/2 year later were using? That is way WAY off. Once again, with Feeling: they have great resources of time then, energy, can buy the best, most scien-Terrific training & nutritional counseling, have chefs, protein shakes, often have better than average genetic potential…

    Now as to 30 lbs. of muscle 7 the time question. 1st: what was done until the ’80s is virtually irrelevant raul. Why? THIS should be common sense for you. before then almost nobody lifted-& those who did, like Nolan Ryan, never did so in the more extreme ways with the intended goal to gain significant bulk man! Did you not know that?

    because it was not known until then how much benefit one could get while lifting. Canseco also kept his speed. of course he wasa fraud.

    Please tell me if you will take my simple challenge, I trust your honesty Raul. But make sure you phrase the question the way I did. ‘Cause the long off season & their advantages DO allow you to buok up naturally. During the year, harder, not impossible when you have your rest, calories, etc…regulated.

    Recall what Brautigan said: at 6′ he was 180, not the string bean you proposed-but kind of light for his structure. Lifting in College, it did not take him the whole 4 years to reach a solid 205. And that was close to 4 decades ago! There are many stories like this Raul.

    From what I have read re: natural potential: take a guy at 6′, keep his body fat at a max of 15%, clearly not at all overweight. MOST of the guys with unusual potential have bigger bone structures: with an average bone structure & not remotely overweight, that dude lifting for years, his potential would be max 210, undressed in the morning.

    That is my height, & if I was not closer to 28% body fat, that is about where i would have been! If someone has a larger frame, add 5 or 10% to that.

    So then Raul: at 6′4″ being just relatively lean, I would say your potential would be 230 lbs., conservatively. BUT: when you are that much taller than average, your bone structure is likely larger than average. Add 5 or 10%, depending on whether your wrist is a good 7 1/2 or 8 inches at its narrowest point.

    You have any reason to believe this is unrealistic? And if your potential was larger than average, add a little more. With 1/2 the year off & lifting fanatically for your career & putting a lot of money into it, you would reach that fairly lean 230 + 5 or 10% over a few years, I wager!

    Now if you did it REALLY fast, most of it, unless starting as a skinny kid: that would be reason for skepticism.

    You guys ask any real lifters about this, OR clean serious lifters in Pro baseball at any level, & INCLUDE my qualifiers, I’ll bet they agree with me.

  279. Mike Felber Says:

    Yeah Cam, he was 20 or possibly 21, found in a Queens basement when seemingly still a kitten, so we do not know exactly. I think having them jump from bed to a slightly higher counter for their food helped their fitness, ’cause you know cats like to nibble all day, jump up to see what you are doing, jump into bed…

  280. Cameron Says:

    My grandpa had a cat who lived to be 23.

    …Everyone hated that little shit but Grandpa. That cat was the devil, I swear.

  281. Chuck Says:

    “…OR clean serious lifters in Pro baseball at any level, & INCLUDE my qualifiers, I’ll bet they agree with me.”

    They don’t, which is kinda the point of all this.

    By the way, Mike, been to your site and have seen some videos.

    Either they’re older than your cat, or it’s been awhile since you’ve been to the gym.

  282. hossrex Says:

    Didn’t read thread. did someones cat die? shitty.

    just watched a thing about Ron santo. the hall of fame can stick its tongue so far up my ass it tickles my prostate.

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