Best players at their experience level — 2011 edition

by KerryWhisnant

Who are the best offensive players at this point in their career, among players who are currently active? Younger players on such a list might very well turn into the stars of tomorrow. More established players on the list are building their resume for possible admission to the Hall of Fame.

For the last three years I have presented a list of the active players who had the most career Runs Created with the same or more plate appearances. Another way of thinking about it is that to make the list, nobody with more RC can have fewer PA. Here the list is updated for 2011 (the data comes from with a minimum of 50 PA required:

PA RC Player RC/PA
10634 2065 Alex Rodriguez 0.194
9774 2005 Manny Ramirez 0.205
8725 1759 Todd Helton 0.202
7433 1613 Albert Pujols 0.217
7422 1429 Lance Berkman 0.193
7266 1310 David Ortiz 0.180
7150 1100 Jorge Posada 0.154
6561 1089 Adam Dunn 0.166
5777 1087 Miguel Cabrera 0.188
4829 894 Matt Holliday 0.185
4778 841 Chase Utley 0.176
4409 799 Ryan Howard 0.181
4210 763 Prince Fielder 0.181
3757 663 Hanley Ramirez 0.176
3176 604 Ryan Braun 0.190
2589 506 Joey Votto 0.195
2515 459 Josh Hamilton 0.183
2414 390 Evan Longoria 0.162
2279 376 Shin-Soo Choo 0.165
2236 365 Mike Napoli 0.163
2083 318 Nelson Cruz 0.153
1811 307 Carlos Gonzalez 0.170
1733 237 Chris Iannetta 0.137
1449 226 Seth Smith 0.156
1260 200 Mike Morse 0.159
1097 166 Matthew Joyce 0.151
997 157 Mike Stanton 0.157
956 141 Alex Avila 0.147
850 123 Carlos Santana 0.145
812 118 Logan Morrison 0.145
750 108 Ike Davis 0.144
645 94 Buster Posey 0.146
582 80 Chris Dickerson 0.137
563 78 Eric Hosmer 0.139
534 72 Chris Heisey 0.135
439 65 Lucas Duda 0.148
437 59 Jemile Weeks 0.135
369 55 John Mayberry 0.149
343 53 Allen Craig 0.155
340 48 Casper Wells 0.141
291 45 Jesus Guzman 0.155
256 37 Alex Presley 0.145
171 35 Brett Lawrie 0.205
150 25 Jason Kipnis 0.167
88 20 Chris Parmelee 0.227
69 14 Jesus Montero 0.203
53 8 Brett Pill 0.151

This is a very interesting list. Most of the players near the top are often mentioned as possible future Hall of Fame candidates (steroids aside), and have been on the list before. Established players who were not on the list last year include Alex Rodriguez (who passed Manny Ramirez in RC), Lance Berkman (who was passed by Albert Pujols in PA), Jorge Posada (who passed Adam Dunn in RC), Chase Utley (who was passed by Matt Holliday in PA), Josh Hamilton, and Shin-Soo Choo.

Younger players who were on the list last year include Seth Smith, Matthew Joyce, Mike Stanton, Carlos Santana, Logan Morrison, Buster Posey, John Mayberry and Casper Wells. Newcomers include Chris Iannetta, Mike Morse, Alex Avila, Ike Davis, Chris Dickerson, Eric Hosmer and Allen Craig.

Notable players on last year’s list who dropped off include Chipper Jones (who passed Manny Ramirez in PA but has fewer RC), J.D. Drew and Mark Teixeira (who were passed by Miguel Cabrera in RC), Jason Bay (who was passed by Prince Fielder), Kevin Youkoulis (passed by Hanley Ramirez), Brad Hawpe and Jayson Werth (passed by Ryan Braun), Dustin Pedroia (passed by Joey Votto), Luke Scott (passed by Josh Hamilton), and Justin Upton (passed by Shin-Soo Choo).

There are a number of excellent players missing from the above ist. We can make a list of the players with the second highest RC for players with the same or more PA, to see who just missed the cut. Rather than showing all the numbers, I simply give the names here (again with a 50 PA minimum, in order of decreasing PA): Jim Thome, Travis Hafner, Kevin Youkoulis, Jayson Werth, Brian McCann, Brad Hawpe, Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp, Troy Tulowitski, Luke Scott,  Justin Upton, Jacoby Ellsbury, Pablo Sandoval, Andrew McCutcheon, Miguel Montero, Ryan Spilborghs, Dexter Fowler, Garrett Jones, Ryan Roburn, Gaby Sanchez, Chris Coghlan, Jayson Heyward, Brennan Boesch, Nolan Reimold, John Baker, Freddie Freeman, Wilson Ramos, Kyle Blanks, Mike Carp, Desmond Jennings, Micah Owings (!), Brian Bogusevic, Salvador Perez, Yonder Alonso, Matt Pagnozzi, and Brian Dinkelman.

This second list is a very fine group as well, especially near the top where there are clear Hall of Fame candidates (again, PEDs aside) — but I think most people would say that overall the players on it a step down from the first list, especially near the bottom.

We can continue the process by finding players with the third highest RC for players with the same or more PA (this time 500 PA minimum to keep the list somewhat shorter): Chipper Jones, Scott Rolen, Aramis Ramirez, J.D. Drew, Carl Crawford, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Morneau, Joe Mauer, Ryan Zimmerman, Jose Bautista, Dustin Pedroia, Josh Willingham, Mark Reynolds, Billy Butler, Jay Bruce, David Ross, Fred Lewis, Brett Gardner, Colby Rasmus, Drew Stubbs, Ian Stewart, Starlin Castro, Neil Walker, Joe Inglett, Jon Jay, Jose Tabata, Chris Johnson, Peter Bourjos, and David Freese,

Sometimes a great player is overshadowed by a better contemporary, so you wouldn’t want to look at just players on the first list to screen for Hall of Fame Candidates. On the other hand, not all players on the first list would necessarily be Hall candidates, even if they are still there later in their careers, since there might not be strong competition at all PA levels. But even if you don’t  use these lists as a Hall of Fame measure, they provide an interesting perspective on who the better players are by experience level.

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390 Responses to “Best players at their experience level — 2011 edition”

  1. Raul Says:

    Who the hell is Brett Pill?

  2. Chuck Says:


    27 year old journeyman who got his first cup of coffee last year after five minor league seasons.

    When you can’t beat out Travis Ishikawa, you suck.

  3. KerryWhisnant Says:

    I must admit, the list at the bottom is not that meaningful :-)

  4. jwmann2 Says:

    Thanks for sharing. I see all of the names on that list that I would expect to be there. Injuries skew those numbers a little bit. Could you imagine how much further A-Rod would be ahead if he had not been injured these last few seasons? Then again, look at who he beats behind in the lineup.

  5. Mike Felber Says:

    Kerry, the era & league factors will not usually vary dramatically for active players over a certain # of SB. But the park factor distinctions can be large, right? Hence Todd Helton being listed so high. Why not use an adjusted or weighted RC?

    And which version of RC did you use?

  6. Cameron Says:

    Park factors may have helped Mike, but you gotta give Helton credit, the guy really did have a season where he actually played like Todd Helton for once.

  7. KerryWhisnant Says:

    I used the bb-ref RC, and they don’t have an RC+, or adjusted RC. That would be a good idea, but a lot more work :-)

    Using WAR might be interesting, too.

  8. Cameron Says:

    Wow… Billy Cundiff may have shanked the easiest kick I’ve ever seen.

  9. John Says:

    Lee Evans was clearly auditioning for the Packers with those hands…

  10. Cameron Says:

    Evans may have prevented Baltimore from winning outright, but there was no fucking excuse for that kick to go wide left.

  11. Mike Felber Says:

    Thanks Kerry, very nice list.

    Cam, Todd Helton & Larry Walker are excellent players, unlike Dante Bichette. He just does not deserve to be near the very top listed virtually as good as Pujols offensively. Looks like Bostons players got a bit of a bump too, thought Manny is not too much above his true (offensive only) value.

  12. Cameron Says:

    My bad, I thought this list was more for recent accomplishments. Because Helton, for his shape and playing time, did pretty well for himself this season.

  13. KerryWhisnant Says:

    That was a bad miss by Cundiff, but it seemed like they were rushing to beat the play clock (he kicked it with about a second left). I kept wondering why they didn’t just call a time out (they had one left). Even if he missed there were only 11 seconds left, so you weren’t likely to be using the time out later. You normally don’t want to ice your own kicker, but that’s better than rushing it.

  14. Hossrex Says:

    Lol… I came to make a snide joke about Ray Finkle… I mean Cundiff… So I find the most recent comment as to reply in an active thread… And it’s about him. Kinda funny.


    Donnie Moore.

    That’s the joke.

  15. Cameron Says:

    Kerry, even if they got a delay of game, a 37 yard kick means fuck-all to a guy like Billy Cundiff. No excuse for that play.

  16. KerryWhisnant Says:

    My point was that they rushed the kick, which is asking for trouble. They could have called a time out or taken the delay penalty (but why put it 5 yards further away if you don’t need to?).

  17. Raul Says:

    Happy 42nd birthday, Mark Wohlers! Wohlers was at times, a quality relief pitcher. Unfortunately, he’s in the Scott Norwood pantheon of professional athletes. A guy who is ultimately known for 1 play. In Wohler’s case, it was a hanging slider to Jim Leyritz that changed the landscape of the 1996 World Series, and arguably propelled the Yankees toward a dynasty that led to 4 World Series Championships.

    Happy 42nd birthday, Alan Embree! You had a 16-season career. There wasn’t anything particularly outstanding about it. Embree is from The Dalles, Oregon, so he’s probably Brautigan’s cousin or something. According to Wikipedia, Embree was a high school letterman in volleyball, baseball, basketball and football. He’s like the white Dave Winfield! All shall kneel before him!

    Happy 38th birthday, Erubiel Durazo! Durazo, to the chagrin of stat heads everywhere, played just 7 seasons and was done by age 31 — despite a career OPS+ of 123. Durazo could be considered your prototypical AAAA player. His career minor league slash stats are .347/.441/.580. He was out of the league in 2005. I suspect he lost quite a bit of weight at that time — you know…at the request of his wife…or for agility…or some silly reason like that.

    Happy 30th birthday (yeah, right) Wily Mo Pena! You’re like the Tin Cup of baseball. Seriously, you should just become a softball player and go all Mighty Casey with your wild swings.

    Happy 27th birthday, Jeff Samardzija! I really don’t know if you’re a smart man, or an idiot. Your Major League career has been quite dull, and perhaps you would have been wiser to pursue a career in the NFL. On the other hand, you DO have a 13 million dollar contract and just came off a pretty successful 2011. Given the shelf life of some NFL football players, you might be better off.

  18. John Says:

    So the latest rumor is that Buck Showalter has tried to convince Peter Angelos to open up his checkbook for Prince.

    Some guy “@MLBinsider” was saying that Fielder was going to the Nats on an 8-year deal, but that was a load of bullshit (not that the Nats aren’t in the running, but no deal is anywhere near done).

  19. Raul Says:


    Boras probably has his employees all over Twitter making up “inside sources”.

  20. Hossrex Says:

    That a mediocre baseball career is likely more profitable than an above average football career is what baffles me about ANY player choosing football, when baseball is a viable option.

    I would like to see where 13 million dollars sits in the grand scheme of career football earnings.

    In baseball… 2 million per year average wage… It’s nothing. In football, I’d reckon it’s rarified air.

  21. Mike Felber Says:

    Yep. Welcome back Hoss!

  22. Raul Says:

    There you go, Hoss.

  23. Hossrex Says:

    I’m aware the average football team consists of roughly half the population of American-Samoa, but wow… The LOWEST team salary is $80-some million?

    Compare to this:

    Twelve teams in baseball are lower than the lowest football team, while four baseball teams are higher than the highest football payroll.

    Which means the entire NFL rests between 14 MLB teams… From the O’s, to the ChiSox.

    The highest paid football team is 1.7 times as expensive as the lowest paid team, while the highest paid baseball team is 5.6 times as expensive as the lowest paid MLB team.

    I love everything about the NFL, except the pesky little “sport” the organization happens to… Ummm… Organize. And I hate everything about the MLB except that it happens (accidentally) to be baseball.

  24. Cameron Says:

    I think baseball has a lower minimum wage, actually. You can cash out earlier too, considering rookies are immediately useful compared to the years of minor league salaries in baseball.

    Given the longevity of the respective careers… Samardzija can sit around being a middling relief guy MUCH longer than washing out as a third string quarterback.

  25. Hossrex Says:

    Cameron: “You can cash out earlier too, considering rookies are immediately useful compared to the years of minor league salaries in baseball.”

    (sorry, can’t be bothered to write HTML code on my iPhone)

    While that’s true, it’s only true because instead of a minor league system where players get paid relatively well (compared to working for jiffy lube), football has a system of indentured servitude called the NCAA which clearly surfs the line of the 13th amendment.

    Especially unsettling when you consider that both predominately black sports (football and basketball obviously) use this seemingly unconstitutional (I’m being dramatic, please don’t think I’m actually calling the NCAA unconstitutional) system, while baseball (predominately white, at least until the Latin players realized baseball was a way off whichever various island shithole from which they came) pays its players at every level.

    But morons love college sports… For some reason… No offense… So no one bats an eye towards institutions of learning using minorities to fund title 9 programs.

  26. Cameron Says:

    Basketball players usually cash out a lot faster. Most guys seem to declare after sophomore year it looks like, several top talents (including #1 pick Kyrie Irving) declared after freshman year. Football… I think the average declaration is for juniors, good handful of sophomores (don’t know many, or any) freshmen that cash out.

    Even figuring NCAA players don’t get paid, the average MLB rookie seems to be a few years older than the average NBA/NFL rookie, and MLB rookies are playing on minor league salaries for that season more often than not.

    NFL is still a faster paycheck for the short-term.

  27. Cameron Says:

    Wow John, Jim Irwin died the other day. My condolences, friend. I know how a good radio voice can elevate the enjoyment of a game you can’t view personally.

  28. John Says:

    @23, JS was a WR with Notre Dame

    I mean, the real question is where was he going to be drafted in the NFL. Until this year (I think the CBA changed this) a first round draft pick was looking at a far better bonus and initial contract than you would see out of a first round draft pick in baseball. That, and like 1/3 of first round draft picks don’t even make it to the show in baseball, whereas in football they’re basically guaranteed to be at least 2nd string.

    As it stands, he has made 13 million dollars as a middle reliever, which seems a lot better than having to do wind-sprints constantly every game for less money. But he’s be a more prominent player even as a #3 receiver in the NFL, and probably make more off advertising, no?

  29. John Says:

    “While that’s true, it’s only true because instead of a minor league system where players get paid relatively well (compared to working for jiffy lube), football has a system of indentured servitude called the NCAA which clearly surfs the line of the 13th amendment.”

    Not sure if it was intentional, Hoss, but excellent use of s(e)urf in a sentence about indentured servitude. A fine play on words *bows*

  30. John Says:

    Cam, I’ve mostly made a point of watching football games, but I remember Irwin being outstanding.

    The current broadcaster is Wayne Larrivee who coined the phrase “and there is your DAGGER” whenever the Packers have effectively clinched a game.

    He’s never called a dagger and lost, but there’ve been times when it has been quite clearly premature.

    Anyway, RIP Jim. God is a Packer’s fan, even if Satan has access to a tube of Vaseline and Jermichael Finley’s gloves.

  31. John Says:

    The real reason Prince Fielder hasn’t signed yet:,27111/

  32. Kerry Says:

    LOL @30. Leave it to The Onion to find the truth :-)

  33. Raul Says:

    Ahh, you can’t go wrong with The Onion.

    My buddy had one of their books, years ago. Good stuff.

    Actually Jon Stewart had a book a while back that talked about history. In some section it discussed sense of humor…

    The Best of Middle Eastern Humor:
    A: Knock, knock…
    B: No. It is you that is wrong.

    Cracks me up every time.

  34. Cameron Says:

    I remember when I was in San Francisco they had newspaper boxes for The Onion like any other newspaper. It was free and awesome.

  35. Mike Felber Says:

    They have this around NYC Cam. The Onion is great, & created by a tight knit group of folks. I recall reading about this re: the AV section, a group from the Mid West. This front page feature, is one of my favorites, with a decidedly distinct tone than they usually rock.

  36. Kerry Says:

    The Onion is available in Madison, WI, too. I picked one up when I was there last year. Always entertaining.

  37. Cameron Says:

    And now a fun little tidbit from when I was still trying to become an English major, I will now introduce you to a grammatically correct sentence comprised entirely of one word.

    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

  38. John Says:

    @35, I believe the paper was started in WI; one of my friends’ step-brothers was/is an editor there.

    The papers are plentiful around the Milwaukee area as well. Haven’t seen them so far in South Carolina, only sparingly in DC.

  39. Raul Says:

    @ Mike Felber

    I see your article, and raise you this:,20981/

  40. Lefty33 Says:

    “While that’s true, it’s only true because instead of a minor league system where players get paid relatively well (compared to working for jiffy lube), football has a system of indentured servitude called the NCAA which clearly surfs the line of the 13th amendment.”

    If you’re refering to minor league baseball a lot of guys would be better off working at Jiffy Lube because the pay would be better.

    In the minors the only guys that make good money are the old fart guys beyond six years that have had some major league time like a Wily Mo Pena type who can command low six figures but if you have less than six years the organization you’re with pretty much owns you.

    I’ve knew/know guys in A ball or in AA who need to get loans/hand outs from friends and family during the season because they don’t make enough to eat, pay clubhouse fees, actually have somewhere to live, etc. when the team is at home.

    The first few years of playing in minor league baseball are not that different than the NCAA in that they are also servitude. Sure you at least get paid but it’s still a monopoly and while the minor league team owners now make very good money the players on those same teams are literally living in some cases at poverty level.

    “But by far, the biggest struggle for minor leaguers is finances. Regardless of any signing bonuses offered, players initially earn a structured salary, which only goes through the five months that the season lasts. Short-season players earn a maximum of $850 per month in their first year, while AAA players make up to $2,150 in their first year.”

  41. Raul Says:


    Back when my uncle came out of college, he didn’t get drafted. He played for a year or two with some minor league teams but 700-something a month just wasn’t cutting it. Even in the early 90s. He was a talented player, but his school was D3 at the time. A few years later they went up to D1-AA before the classifications changed.

  42. Raul Says:

    Kevin Milwood signed a minor league contract with the Mariners.
    Dallas McPherson signed a minor league contract with the White Sox.
    Omar Vizquel signed a minor league contract with the Blue Jays.

  43. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox signed Cody Ross

  44. Raul Says:

    Happy 39th birthday, Mike Glavine! In 2003 you saw your only action as a major leaguer, appearing in 6 games with the Mets. I understand you’re now a coach at Northeastern University. Really now? Quite the intellectual. It should be noted that you were elected to the Hall of Fame BEFORE your brother Tom. What? The Northeastern University Athletics Hall of Fame? Whatever. I won’t dwell on semantics.

    Happy 48th birthday, Rob Dibble! A part of the famed Nasty Boys, Dibble helped the Reds win the 1990 World Series over the Oakland Athletics. Well-known for his temper, Dibble once threw a baseball 400 feet into the stands, striking a woman, he fought Astros shortstop Eric Yelding, he attempted to hit outfielder Doug Dascenzo in the back as he ran to 1B, and fought Lou Pinella (who won that fight, by the way?). After making critical comments about Stephen Strasburg in 2010, Dibble was fired from his commentator position with the Nationals. Unofficially, Rob Dibble competes with John Rocker as one of the bigger douchebags to flame out in recent baseball history.

    Happy 28th birthday, Scott Kazmir! Kazmir was one of the most prized prospects the Mets have churned out in quite some time. When he was traded for Victor Zambrano in 2004, it was widely panned as one of the worst trades in recent memory. Kazmir would go on to have major injury problems and it’s unfortunate that at just 28, he’s considered a bust. One wonders what could have been from 2006-2008 for the Mets as Kazmir would prove to be a quality left-hander and strikeout machine for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, while Victor Zambrano would battle injuries that forced him out of the game.

  45. KerryWhisnant Says:

    @39: “But by far, the biggest struggle for minor leaguers is finances.”

    When I first glanced at this I read “fiances.” And I’m sure some minor leaguers have a hard time convincing their fiances to hang in there with them during the lean years.

  46. Brautigan Says:

    Well, I for one would have preferred a bus ride in the bushes than putting together bikes and BBQ stands for Western Auto for $1.80 an hour. Because after I hurt my back and lost my baseball scholarship, that was exactly what I was making.

  47. Brautigan Says:

    I see today 3 articles where Brian Cashman says when he traded Jesus Montero, he traded his best propsect ever.

    Look, Cashman, you can put still more lipstick on that pig and it is still a swine. You took Seattle to the cleaners, you don’t need to keep saying how much you gave up. You gave up nothing, really. When Montero hits .180 in Seattle, you’re going to look pretty stupid.

  48. KerryWhisnant Says:

    LOL @46, well, the comments will look stupid, but the trade will look pretty good…

  49. Raul Says:

    Yeah, but $1.80 an hour in the ’20s was a good salary.

  50. Raul Says:

    So the Blue Jays signed Brandon Moss to a 3-year, 20 million dollar extension.

    Morrow is a good pitcher that puts up crappy ERAs. You don’t need advanced stats to see that. But, I looked anyway, and while Morrow’s ERA in 2010 was 4.49, his xFIP was 3.53. And in 2011, it was 4.72 and 3.53 respectively.

    So is this guy gonna break out a little bit in 2012?

  51. Raul Says:

    Excuse me, Brandon Morrow. Dunno what I was thinking…

  52. Chuck Says:

    Between high school, summer ball, American Legion, travel teams, etc, Rob Dibble lost three games in those four years.

    I beat him twice.

    One was on a walk-off double steal.

    $1.80 was a good wage in the ’70’s.

    So, Montero’s a better prospect than Jeter?


  53. Bob Says:

    You were thinking of past Red Sox players that were awesome.

  54. Chuck Says:

    Raul just used “xFIP” in a sentence.

    You may now proceed to go to bed without supper.

    And let that be a lesson to you.

  55. Raul Says:


  56. Bob Says:

    It is ” very likely” that J.D. Drew will retire.

  57. Chuck Says:

    He retired two years ago, somebody just forgot to tell him.

  58. Bob Says:

    Chuck and John, I will submit my NLEast article tomorrow. Still mulling over the Phillies (and do not want to incur the wrath of Lefty!)and the Nationals.
    I am kidding Lefty.

  59. John Says:

    LOL @49, yeah, he strikes out a ton of guys. 10.1/9 for his career, which is kinda nuts.

    He also walks a fair number of dudes – 4.5/9.

    Then again, Gio Gonzalez is basically the same way, except fewer K’s, but with drastically better results. Helps to be in the AL West and get to face the Mariners, we’ll see how he fairs in DC.

  60. John Says:

    #MysteryTeam is apparently the Detroit Tigers.

    Prince Fielder signs for 9 years, 214 million dollars.

    But, but, but…he’s FAT.

    Anyway, wasn’t he supposed to sign with the Bad News Bears?

    Congrats to the Big Man.

  61. Bob Says:

    Fuck yes!!!

  62. Cameron Says:

    I haven’t seen any confirmation from a reliable source yet, so I’ll withhold judgement.

    …But really? 9/214? Talk about a serious pay cut just to play second fiddle to Miguel Cabrera.

  63. John Says:

    For the record, I don’t think this is a smart deal by Detroit, but it just goes to show how much a player’s pants size actually matter’s in modern player evaluation.

  64. Bob Says:

    Cameron,: Step one: Go to the Tigers website.
    Step two. Cry as you are a Royals fan.

  65. John Says:

    “Talk about a serious pay cut just to play second fiddle to Miguel Cabrera.”

    Sorry, pay cut?

    What did you think he was going to get?

  66. Cameron Says:

    And a lineup anchored by Cabrera and Fielder, Verlander and co.’s rotation, and Jose’s back end? …The Tigers could very well be the class of the MLB this year.

    And considering that lineup and a rotation that figures to be as bad as KC’s… I’m terrified when Detroit comes to town.

  67. Cameron Says:

    Pay cut compared to what he was looking at, John.

  68. Cameron Says:

    Also, V-Mart has to be all but gone from Detroit at this point.

  69. Bob Says:

    I doubt V-Mart goes anywhere while he is on the DL.

  70. Cameron Says:

    Of course, no one trades for an injured player, but Avila’s the catcher, Cabrera’s on first, and Fielder’s DHing.

    …Unless by some crack-tastic thinking you move Cabrera’s iron glove back to left or (god forbid) the hot corner. I wouldn’t be surprised if Martinez outright got waived.

  71. John Says:

    This will give the Brewers consecutive picks at 27 and 28 (as both the Tigers and Brewers were LCS losers).

  72. John Says:

    What was Prince looking at, exactly?

    Boras threw out “Mauer/Teixeira” money, and he ended up getting a BETTER deal.

  73. Cameron Says:

    Just saying by the asking price. This is an AAV of $23MM. He was asking for, what, 25-27?

  74. Bob Says:

    Fielder will be the 1st baseman.

  75. Cameron Says:

    Oh lord… Lemme guess, Miggy’s gonna play left?

  76. Bob Says:

    And Inge will be the 3rd baseman for 1 more year, and they hope Castellanos will be ready come 2013.

  77. Cameron Says:

    Wait, it says Cabrera will DH.

    …In all honesty, it’s a coin flip between those two on defense. They both suck

  78. Bob Says:

    @75. No DH

  79. Raul Says:

    9 years?
    NINE YEARS????

    To Prince Fielder???

    Yeah I’m gonna put that up there as probably the single worst contract ever.

  80. Cameron Says:

    Raul… Mike Hampton.

  81. Bob Says:

    I bet he is fine for the first 5 tears of it. If the Tigers get above average production from him for the first 5 years, no way is this going to be horrid. Then he can DH.

  82. John Says:

    There’s something of a DH logjam in Detroit.

    The difference between Miggy and Prince at 1B, in spite of Prince’s weight, is basically nothing. They’re both pretty bad.

    Question is, what happens when VMart comes back? Unless Avila was a total fluke this year, there’s no way for VMart to play C. Or are they going to try Miggy back out at 3B? I feel like that would be a mistake.

  83. Bob Says:

    Fuck my project. We need an article on the Tigers.

  84. Raul Says:

    LOL @ another Fielder in Detroit though.

  85. John Says:

    @79, I doubt that, but I think this is a bad contract for sure.

    But it means that Miguel Cabrera is going to put up Nintendo numbers for Detroit with the big man hitting behind him.

    Oh wait, Jim Leyland manages in Detroit, and he bats his worst hitters 1-3. Fielder will probably hit 7th in Leyland’s system.

  86. John Says:

    I’ll put a little something together.

  87. Bob Says:

    Miggy will not slide to 3rd, as they have a very good prospect who is only a year away in Castellanos. Inge should be penciled in. Or bring back Tom Brookens.

  88. Raul Says:


    I thought the city of Detroit was crumbling. Jobs leaving and the city falling apart with crime and everything.

    They’re spending like a coked up Charlie Sheen in Vegas.

  89. Bob Says:

    @ 86. Thank you

  90. Bob Says:

    @ 88. Illitch owns pizza joints, not car factories.

  91. Cameron Says:

    Bob, I AM in charge of the AL Central preview. Glad I haven’t started yet. This eliminated any semblance of competition.

  92. Bob Says:

    I know that. Notice I said NL East. Also, when you tell the Royals to part with Getz, do be kind.

  93. Cameron Says:


    John, I’m not sure it’s the system or just the fact that Detroit has no one that resembles a ledaoff hitter in that system from top to bottom.

  94. John Says:

    @88, I had the same thought.

    They have well over 60M committed over to three players through 2014.

  95. Cameron Says:

    Fuck Chris Getz. The dude lost his backup MI job to Yuni.

  96. Cameron Says:

    Yeah John, but those three are Verlander, Cabrera, and Fielder. Worthy investment IMO.

  97. John Says:

    ” Illitch owns pizza joints, not car factories.”

    In other news, the price for a slice has gone up to $949.99
    @91, go for it.

  98. Cameron Says:

    “” Illitch owns pizza joints, not car factories.”

    In other news, the price for a slice has gone up to $949.99
    @91, go for it.”

    This just in, Detroit now richest city on planet. Experts question Prince Fielder’s involvement.

  99. Bob Says:

    “In other news, the price for a slice has gone up to $949.99.”
    Not to worry, Price will be his biggest ( get it) customer!

  100. Cameron Says:

    Oh, and I guess we should mention this before we forget. Jorge Posada retired today.

  101. Raul Says:

    I seriously cannot believe this deal.

    This contract shocks me even more than the Jayson Werth one.

  102. Bob Says:

    I think the Werth contract is worse. Prince wanted to live in Grosse Pointe again.

  103. Raul Says:

    Jorge Posada was the least-valuable Yankee of the past 15 years.
    He’s barely a notch ahead of Graeme Lloyd.

  104. Bob Says:

    LOL @ 103. Today’s question on ESPN.
    Is Jorge Posada a HOFER?
    1. Yes and a 1st ballot one at that.
    2. Yes, but not on the first ballot
    3. No

  105. Cameron Says:

    3, 3 a thousand times 3!

  106. John Says:

    “Jorge Posada was the least-valuable Yankee of the past 15 years.
    He’s barely a notch ahead of Graeme Lloyd.”

    That’s just ridiculous. He’s not a HOFer but come on.

  107. Chuck Says:

    Holy shit.

    9/214…is that a misprint?

  108. Cameron Says:

    Nope. Prince Fielder is a Tiger for the next nine years. …I’m terrified.

  109. Raul Says:

    Fear not, Cameron.

    Fielder is *this close* from having a Mama Cass-esque ordeal with a ham sandwich that will have him on the Disabled List.

  110. Brautigan Says:

    Personally, I think the Fielder deal is a bit more realistic than the Pujols deal. For the sole reason, Fielder is what, 4 years younger and his contract is one year shorter.

  111. Brautigan Says:

    ….and the Werth deal is still a head shaker.

  112. Cameron Says:

    Brautigan, if you count Pujols’ Special Assistant to the GM position he’s guaranteed after the deal ends, it’s actually 11 years shorter.

  113. Brautigan Says:

    $1.80 in 1972. No, I wasn’t rich.

    I made $1.50 in 1970 working in the wheat fields of Eastern Oregon. We worked from 6PM to 6AM, made $18 a day. Crap work, no social life, and you really got sick of dirt, wheat, rye grass and peas.

    Playing American Legion in 1971, I ended up working at the slaughter house because the manager owned the slaughter house and he wanted me at each and every game, and this way he could assure it. The workers at the slaughter house resented me each and every way. They gave me jobs like putting carcasses into the gut truck (which is way fun when it is 105 degrees and the flys are thick and the guts have been stewing for a couple of days in the heat…..good times).

    So again, I’d ride buses than have that kind of life. :)

  114. Jim Says:

    Fielder to Detroit a head scratcher, but the Tigers will be fun to watch. Expect VMart or Cabrera to be traded in 2013. Funny about who should be playing first, am I the only one here who thinks that Victor is actually the best first baseman of the the 3?

  115. John Says:

    I keep waiting for Prince’s first DL stint. Still hasn’t happened.

  116. Cameron Says:

    Seeing as how Detroit waived Gary Sheffield when they couldn’t find a taker, they could just cut him next year.

  117. Raul Says:

    LOL @ you acting like Fielder will challenge Ripken’s record.

  118. Chuck Says:

    “if you count Pujols’ Special Assistant to the GM position he’s guaranteed after the deal ends, it’s actually 11 years shorter.”

    Pujols will be wearing a suit and not a uniform over those ten years, hence, point is irrelevant.

  119. Hartvig Says:

    While I think the Tigers are going to regret the last 2 or 3 years of that contract under almost any circumstances, I’m hopeful that Prince can keep it together for a few more years anyways. The 2 players with similar body types that spring to mind are his dad, Cecil and Mo Vaughn. Both saw their production drop off at age 30 to an OPS+ range of around 110 (which is pretty mediocre for a DH only) and were pretty much finished after age 32. Plus, with VMart returning next year (or maybe even by late September this year) there is a real question as to where everyone is going to play. It’s also kind of ridiculous to have all that power in a lineup and no one hitting ahead of them who can actually get on base. Leyland needs to do the same thing to Austin Jackson that they did to Willie Mays Hayes in the movie “Major League” and have him to 30 push ups every time he uppercuts.

    Should be a fun year to be a Tiger fan anyways.

  120. Chuck Says:

    Prince Fielder=Jose Reyes

    Miguel Cabrera=Hanley Ramirez.

  121. Bob Says:

    In other, less meaningful moves the A’s signed Bartolo Colon and the Jays signed Francisco Cordero. Have yourselves a great night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  122. Chuck Says:

    Good thing Ilitch owns a restaurant chain, otherwise he couldn’t pay the post-game catering bill.

    His food budget is more than the Pirates’ payroll.

  123. Cameron Says:

    Gentlemen, behold the most sheltered child ever.

  124. John Says:

    @117 LOL at you acting as if Prince is constantly getting hurt.

    He’s averaged 160 games played in 6 seasons. Guys who “look like ballplayers” have not been doing that, so, once again, I could care less how you feel about his weight.

    This is a bad deal, but not because of Prince’s durability, which is spec-fucking-tacular. This is a bad deal because Prince is getting the 4th highest-paying deal in the history of the game, and he’s maybe the 10-15th best player in the game at this second.

    He’s a fantastic hitter…and that’s about it. Can’t beat you with his legs, glove or arm. Now, if you had to pick 1 and only 1 aspect of the game to rule at, you pick hitting – but, as a Brewers fan, I’m pretty happy that we have Ryan Braun locked up for the same period of time for roughly HALF the total price because (assuming he was clean, and doesn’t end up hitting .266/.333/.425 when he plays again), Braun adds so many more dimensions.

    Prince is a fine addition, but to commit 200+ million dollars, I want a player to play a premium position, and sport a good glove or spry legs (and preferably both). I also want him to be more consistent – Prince slugged under .500 in 2010 and just barely over .500 in 2008, but sub-3.0 WAR years.

    Just my take, I love Prince, and I hope he hits 400 homers over this deal and proves me wrong.

  125. Raul Says:

    It’s a bad deal…and the weight is a part of it.

    No matter what you try to tell yourself.

  126. Cameron Says:

    The weight’s part of it, but no one looks good at the end of a nine year deal.

  127. Raul Says:

    …especially a person as big as Prince Fielder.

  128. John Says:

    This nonsense has been going on for 10 years, and Prince has done nothing but prove the skeptics wrong about how his weight being a limiting factor.

  129. Hossrex Says:

    Surf… Serf…

    Fuck… Is this the first time in the history of the universe a person can honestly say “no pun intended”?

    I wish I could take credit for it. :p

  130. Raul Says:

    Fat, slow, players that can’t run for shit don’t age well.

    It’s a historical fucking fact.

  131. John Says:

    Babe Ruth called, he was unaware that he had been such failure.

  132. Cameron Says:

    Jason Giamibi and David Ortiz are fairly fat fucks and are aging decently.

  133. John Says:

    Meanwhile, JD Drew has a perfectly athletic looking body and is out of baseball, having spent like 1/3 of his career on the DL.

    Maybe Prince should follow his fitness regimen to look more like a ballplayer. That would be better than actually playing 162 games year in and year out -the important thing is that you give the appearance of playing 162 games.

  134. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes, baseball like certain defensive line/immovable object positions in football, or the top weights in power lifting or sumo wrestling, does not demand overall athleticism or that look from all who succeed at it.

    This guy was a legend at a pretty sedentary sport requiring enormous arm strength. 469 lb. pig farmer from Georgia.

  135. Raul Says:

    1. Prince Fielder is not Babe Ruth. He’s more like Babe the Pig.
    2. Jason Giambi was 230 pounds of muscle in his steroid days with the Yankees. And even they regretted that contract. He wasn’t pushing 280 like Fielder.
    3. David Ortiz’s longest contract was 4 years/52 million. That’s a lot different than 9 years/214 million. And he was juicing, too.

    @133…you seriously have like 8 of the top 10 dumbest comments on this website ever. And that’s saying something considering the other 2 come from Shaun.

  136. John Says:

    Raul, if you want to judge baseball players by what they look like, fine. If you want to judge them based on whether they can be underwear models, go for it.

    You and people like you have been saying the same retarded nonsense about Prince Fielder for 10 years now. “He’ll never make it…he’s too big.”

    For 10 years, you’ve been 100% proven wrong.

    That’s why no one in baseball gives a flying fuck about people who think like you.

  137. Raul Says:

    It’s not about what he looks like. It’s about giving a massively obese man a massive contract for way too many years.

    It doesn’t matter that he’s been durable.
    It seriously has never occurred to you that being fat in your 20s isn’t the same as being fat in your 30s and 40s?

    It serio…whatever.

  138. Brautigan Says:

    5 foot 11 inches. 275 pounds.

    Wait until he matures and grows into that body.

  139. John Says:

    You’ve been projecting a mammoth collapse due to his weight for a decade now.

    When are you actually going to be right?

    For the record, the dumbest thing ever said on this website was when Raul suggested that the Rockies should move Troy Tulowitzki to right field.

  140. Cameron Says:

    230 pounds of muscle. One, it was 240, and two.. Were you and I seriously looking at the same Giambi? Look at the end of that contract. Dude looked like a white Prince Fielder.

  141. Raul Says:

    I’ve never said a word about Prince Fielder before this contract and you damn well know it.

    The only thing I’ve ever said about Prince Fielder, and I’ve said it about Matt Holliday…is that I seemed to have bad luck drafting them for my fantasy teams because I would always choose them on their “off” years.

  142. Cameron Says:


    Aside from that, is there a bad thing anyone can ever say about Matt Holliday? While he doesn’t seem to be a marquee player, the dude’s quietly been one of the best players in the league for about four years running now.

  143. Brautigan Says:

    Babe Ruth: Six feet 2 inches. 215 pounds.

    Notice the difference?

    John, you keep saying “10 years”. Fielder hasn’t been playing professional baseball for 10 years yet. You can say that in June. You can also wait another 4 years before you can say Prince has a 10 year major league career.

  144. Brautigan Says:

    Holiday has to quit using his head in the playoffs/world series.

  145. Cameron Says:

    Ah, but he’s calling ten years because his weight was a question on whether or not he’d even get drafted… Which happened ten years ago.

  146. John Says:

    @143, Fielder was drafted in 2002, and it’s 2012 now. That’s 10 years by my count. He was a prospective player before that. Even the A’s, known for drafting fat people, said that Prince was too fat “even for them” (that’s from Moneyball).

  147. John Says:

    @143, Babe Ruth might’ve been 215 lbs in 1920. He wasn’t 215 lbs by 1927, that’s for sure. I believe that’s the year he collapsed under his own weight, right? No, wait…he hit 60 home runs.

  148. Raul Says:

    I’m looking forward to Prince Fielder hitting 60 home runs like Ruth did in 1927, and also eclipsing the 9th-greatest OPS season ever.

    I’m CERTAIN Fielder will do it.

  149. Chuck Says:

    “For the record, the dumbest thing ever said on this website was when Raul suggested that the Rockies should move Troy Tulowitzki to right field.”

    Well, technically not.

    It’s the dumbest thing ever said by someone not named John Bowen.

    Tim Raines on line one.

  150. KerryWhisnant Says:

    Hey guys, the school bell rang — it’s time to come in from recess.

  151. Chuck Says:

    In case anyone cares, Kyle Williams, the 49er’s kick returner with the bad hands and worse feet, is the son of Kenny Williams, the White Sox GM.

  152. Cameron Says:

    Yep, and what’s the first thing that came out after that game? Kenny making excuses for his kid.

    So. Many. Jokes.

  153. Raul Says:

    Kyle Williams didn’t lose them the game.

    He made huge mistakes, but the 49ers were 0-12 on Third Down at one point.

    Even if Williams was the cause, it’s just a game. And death threats are way out of line.

  154. John Says:

    Yeah, that’s ridiculous. Chill out; it’s a game.

    And yeah. The 49ers had 1 first down on third down…at the very end of the 4th quarter as time expired (in the middle of the field).

  155. Cameron Says:

    So… Pats-Giants again. Same outcome or does Brady come out on top? If you ask me, Tom Brady in a game where he has the chance for revenge is the scariest thing you can think of in the NFL. Tim Tebow tried taking his spotlight from the media and look what Brady did to him (twice). Imagine what he does to the poor bastards who took a Superbowl from him.

  156. Brautigan Says:

    I was just looking at images comparing the body types of Prince Fielder and Babe Ruth.

    Even in his days with the Boston Braves, compared to Fielder, Babe Ruth looks like Dexter Fowler.

    Fielder is one popsicle away from 300 pounds. And the amazing thing is, this guy doesn’t play like someone his size……… truly amazes me how agile he is and well he plays considering his size.

    So John, I get how good Fielder is. I also get how this guy is big, always has been (I first met him when he was 12, and he was bigger then), and always will be big. The issue that I and others speak to is, history shows that people with his “type” generally have a quick and early decline. So, let me add that Fielder has proven a lot of nay-sayers wrong already, and he may do it again. But the odds are against him.

  157. Brautigan Says:

    Billy Beane has gotten $472,000 per inning by Michael Ynoa since he signed.

    You all know I like Beane, and I like Beane alot. Great guy, good GM.

    Can anyone tell me why Billy still has a job?

  158. Chuck Says:

    “Billy Beane has gotten $472,000 per inning by Michael Ynoa since he signed..”

    That’s the gross amount.

    You have to subtract the cost of his TJ surgery and his rehab.

    “Can anyone tell me why Billy still has a job?”

    Let’s wait a few days and see if he’s serious about signing Manny Ramirez before answering?

  159. Bob Says:

    Q:Can anyone tell me why Bill still has a job?
    A:#1 He is a part-owner of the team.
    A:#2 If he is fired, women will boycott the A’s as the headlines will scream “The A’s fired Brad Pitt.”

  160. John Says:

    The A’s are looking at losing 100+ games this year.

    If Beane brings in Manny, it’ll just be to draw a few extra fans and sell a few more jerseys.

    He’s not going to commit big money, nor will he have any actual expectation of Manny turning the team around.

  161. Bob Says:

    Nobody will buy a Manny jersey.

  162. Cameron Says:

    You underestimate the actual name value of Manny in a city as abused by shit management as Oakland.

  163. Hossrex Says:

    How to misunderstand a point (or… “stupidity 101, a beginners course in upsetting others”):

    Step 1: repeat something you heard on television (the learning tool for all of subpar intelligence).
    Step 2: wait for someone to quite easily, and reasonably dispute everything you just said.
    Step 3: while making sure to take an arrogant tone, repeat (verbatim) everything you said before, only this time include a ridiculous outlier, and hope no one realizes your absurd extreme example doesn’t actually do anything to inform your position, since even the scientific method often allows for the dismissal of outliers.
    Step 4: someone points out that your point suffers from absurdum ad reducto. Darn.
    Step 5: repeat all your points again (verbatim, as always), only this time point out how stupid everyone is, using as much profanity as your vocabulary allows.
    Step 6: People feel sorry for you.
    Step 7: claim victory, and leave the thread (making sure to repeat your point one last time… That’s right… Verbatim of course).
    Step 8: find different message board having same discussion, and hope there aren’t so many pesky “smart people” there.

    Prince is fat. Citing babe Ruth is stupid. If you think giving 9 years 214 million dollars to a dude who’s fatter than I was at my fattest, well… I want to play fantasy baseball against you.

    Now if you don’t mind, I have a date with Miss Kettle… She says she has something to call me.

  164. Chuck Says:


  165. Brautigan Says:

    This is an Eastern Oregon thing from the 60’s, FUCKIN’ A Hossrex.

  166. Hossrex Says:

    Lol… East Oregon from the 60’s?

    I gotta ask… “huh?”

  167. Mike Felber Says:

    Now hold on a moment there. There is some amusing stuff there, but “a popiscle away from 300 lbs” seems something of an overstatement. Also Hoss, were you not way more than 300 lbs. at your peak? What did you say, 345? Naturally strong, but not doing any power or other lifting to make have added much muscle.

    It does seem like an excessive contract. Its amount & length would be justified if Prince was amongst the best hitters in the game for years. If he could hit nearly like Pujols with his 170 OPS +, he would produce more value now, & even when he declined, he could still be good by the end of his contract.

    Reducing something to the absurd, when the example is correct, is a valid method of disproving a point. Showing how applying the premises of an argument would be wrong in a particular example, or would lead to an outcome that defeats the point trying to be established.

    Ruth was described as “198 lbs. without an ounce of fat & huge biceps” (by the standard of the day of course) when he came up. In Boston & early on with the Yankees 215 was likely about right. But by his 30’s he was fairly fat, though he did often work to stay in decent shape in the off season, though training tactics then could be dubious. At his biggest his waist was larger than his already huge for the day chest.

    I recall that he had an unusually big difference between regular & expanded chest measurements, 6 or 7 inches. I wonder if that was a big source of his explosive power.

  168. Hossrex Says:

    Citing Ruth is absurd because although you can find a legendary fatty, the general trend (and expectation) is that the healthier a player is, the better he’ll perform, and for a longer period of time.

    Is that something which really needs to be explained?

    BTW: Little Cecil is under 300lbs the way David Eckstein is 5 foot 6.

  169. Hossrex Says:

    I once had a baseball card made when I was 9 that made it very clear that I was a “super slugger”.

    Where’s my 214 million dollars?

  170. Cameron Says:

    Jealous, much?

  171. brautigan Says:

    Eastern Oregon + 1960’s=grateful dead

    Seriously, look it up. Well, that and Clint Eastwood’s “Paint Your Wagon”.

  172. Hossrex Says:

    Of a person who was recently guanranteed a quarter of a billion dollars just to play a game which I routinely give money to other people simply to enjoy?

    Can’t imagine why someone would be jealous of that.

  173. Hossrex Says:

    Did I make a greatful dead reference?

  174. Raul Says:

    I could have sworn a 1960s + Eastern Oregon story would clearly involve LSD and Shanghaiing.

  175. Hossrex Says:

    Yeah… The greatful dead… That’s what he said. :)

  176. Hossrex Says:


    I’m an idiot.

  177. Raul Says:

    I hadn’t noticed…you have a lot of competition.

  178. brautigan Says:

    and “sundown” laws.

  179. Hossrex Says:

    My grandfather used to talk about hating sundowners.. I always assumed he meant the California wind… Now I’m worried he was a terrible racist.

    *ba dum… CHING!*

  180. Mike Felber Says:

    Well I cannoyt really say he is “only” 275. He may be, Googling how much does prince fielder weigh? yield’s that as the best guess for 5 web sites. Though if listed as such he could be more. But 5′ 11″ 275 is very fat even for a big boned guy-unless he has an enormous amount of muscle, an amount not normally approached naturally. Then you can have a Ronnie Coleman, under 6′ & weighing about exactly 300 while SHREDDED.

    It will be interesting to see how he fares. If he would just lose, say, 30 lbs. of fat & keep it off & just be heavy, not historically fat cor baseball, it would make a significant difference. But it is dismaying how small a % of folks keep off weight, whatever they try, He now is a vegetarian-some eat tons of sweets & junk, & oils, nuts, seeds are mostly fat.

    From my favorite album by them. Lyrics double as simple & mystical. A book could be written about the muses internal & otherwise addressed here, but it would all be almost a betrayal of the Realm of Pure Feeling, the proverbial finger pointing at the moon, more sublime than even pure words can touch.

  181. Cameron Says:

    Mike, I can get a good naked-eye observation of Prince. The guy has biceps the size of my head and forearms the size of my calves. However, he also has a gut bigger than mine, and I’m a fatass (5′6″, 220ish, so basically I look like Prince without the muscle).

    Guy’s very topheavy and dragging a lot of weight around. As someone with roughly the same body type, I can tell you the first thing to go is his back, followed by his knees. I have some back issues and my knees are the first things to go whenever I get too physically strained.

  182. Raul Says:

    I love this.

    John connects Prince Fielder and Babe Ruth.
    Mike connects Prince Fielder and Ronnie Fucking Coleman.

    Why won’t any of you pricks make a reasonable comparison, like Prince Fielder and the Michelin Man.

  183. Cameron Says:

    Because the other reasonable comparisons like Boog Powell and Cecil Fielder are shit evidence. Finding exceptions to the rule is hard. At the same time, guys that big usually don’t make the majors. Small pool to draw from.

  184. Hossrex Says:

    Cameron: I can tell you the first thing to go is his back, followed by his knees. I have some back issues and my knees are the first things to go whenever I get too physically strained.

    Oh yeah. Mine was the other way around (mostly from a completely unaddressed major knee injury in high school), but those are the two parts. Dilauded is a good friend.

    Raul: Why won’t any of you pricks make a reasonable comparison, like Prince Fielder and the Michelin Man.

    Jokes aside… How about we make the only comparison which REALLY matters.

    (I’m on an iPod, and it fucks up when copying and pastig between windows, so post continued)

  185. Hossrex Says:

    (my iPod sucks, and is giving me crap about copying and pasting a stat sheet, so I shall make my point with words instead)

    Cecil Fielder.

    Sure he had 240 some home runs after he was 27, but his career was over at an age where Prince will still be owed for two extra seasons (40 some million wasted), and he was done being an everyday player at 32… Which would be FOUR seasons which he isn’t producing at a level worth superstar status (80 some million wasted).

    So. If we use the BEST, and only fair comparison, your paying Prince 214 million for 5 years…. Or 43 million dollars per year… For a fat ass who (regardless of whether or not he can convince some even bigger retard that he should be allowed to own a glove) can only DH. He’s a professional pinch hitter.

    He’s the batting equivalent of a fucking relief pitcher.

    43 million dollars per year, for Rod Beck.

    Fuck… Rod Beck… I DARE one of you to tell me Babe Ruth is a more fair comparison than Rod Beck.

    240 homeruns. 214 million dollars.

    How much is a homerun worth to you guys.

    On top of ALL of that… How impressive do you think Prince Fielder would be if he didn’t bat after Ryan Fucking Braun? And if any of you spout the saber-nonsense that it doesn’t matter who else is on the line-up… I’ll be forced to give you a very stern look.

    (extra fun bonus points for typing “Ryan Braun” into google, and laughing at the first suggested search)

  186. Cameron Says:


  187. Hossrex Says:

    Lol… Sorry for the triple post, but I just noticed something awesome mike said.

    Mike: “Reducing something to the absurd, when the example is correct, is a valid method of disproving a point.”

    In other words: “it is correct and valid to compare Prince Fielder to Babe Ruth.”

    Well played Mike. Well played.

    I’ll leave all the rebuttals for that point upto my nephews kindergarten class.

    Finger paintings about just how wrong you are to follow.

  188. Mike Felber Says:

    Time to administer a little loving discipline & intellectual rigor.

    Raul, i know you love calling folks things like pricks, but read again. I never remotely compared Prince to Ronnie Coleman. Whaaa? I was clearly showing what are extreme parameters for muscularity, not remotely suggesting Prince was all muscle with minimal body fat. Did you just skim to find a reason to get angry about…something?

    You completely misread what I was saying Hoss.

    I could have connected the dots more, but I figured it would be obvious. That I was not arguing against your point. It was a supplementary point of order about how the logical fallacy you described is appropriately deployed in an argument. That is, intro to Logic teaches how this technique is correctly used.

  189. Mike Felber Says:

    Prince my decline like his Dad. The question is can he be effective as a DH. He is overpaid, it is not worth the likely unproductive years at that rate. But a good DH creates a lot more value than a modern day relief pitcher. You can measure it as SM does in WAR, WARP, check win shares…Or just do the rough math in your head.

    How many IP does the average reliever throw compared to a full time pitcher? generally at most 40%, or put another way a 200 IP man throws 2 1/2 times more than an average starter. 3X & more is not uncommon, like 70 IP vs. more like 250.

    A DH not only starts at playing 50% of the game, but it is effectively much more than that. All modern & intuitive metrics of value show you that a batter of the same quality as even a middle infielder or CF creates a few times more value with the bat. A great year in the field will earn you 1 1/2 to 2 WAR. Slugging, it can be 8-10.

    It does not matter whether you like SM or traditional measures. If this was false, then instead of Max being a clearly unworthy HOF man, he would be about as good as Teddy Ballgame. Both were only “good” at one aspect of the game. Which has a vastly differential impact on winning. Not that defense does not have significant value, especially at certain positions.

    I just do not think Price is an elite enough hitter that he will can maintain enough quality in his 30’s to justify such an investment.

  190. Hossrex Says:

    Okay. I went forward in time a week, and got my nephews homework assignment. Enjoy.

    And Mike… If you need 200 words to explain how Prince is technically more valuable than relief pitching (the guy who does the rub downs is more valuable than the relievers), maybe you could admit you WERE engaging in absurdum ad reducto when you compared him to Babe Ruth (and then made several posts insisting it WAS an apt comparison).

    I wouldn’t need 200 words to explain why Babe Ruth is more valuable than relief pitching.

    Here’s my go: “fuck you, he’s Babe Fucking Ruth”.

    There. Six words.

    Thats a hall of famer.

    (in the interest of full disclosure, I neither have a nephew in kindergarten, nor did I travel through time)

  191. Hossrex Says:

    If you bastards knew how much fucking time I spent drawing, and figuring out how to upload that picture, ALL ENTIRELY on my iPod… You’d probably have a pretty accurate picture of my life.

  192. Mike Felber Says:

    Funny picture Hoss.

    But you have strayed for from intellectual rigor.

    1) I did not “need” 200 words to explain why a Babe Ruth is more valuable than relief pitching. I was being making a case in a clear & thorough way. 1a) But where did you get that I was using Ruth in the comparison? I explicitly referred to what you made an argument about, in post 186: “He’s the batting equivalent of a fucking relief pitcher. 43 million dollars per year, for Rod Beck”.

    You alone made them equivalents in value, when they are nowhere near so.

    2) I want to model some polite, non-disdainful skepticism. Why & how on earth do you think I was (in any meaningful sense such as in player or offensive value) I was comparing him to babe Ruth?

    I think if I deploy your tone & style you are more likely to understand.

    In post 186, I described both the BUILD & weight of prince & The Babe. I was actually just being as close to exact as possible in addressing the physicality of each player, addressing what others had already said.

    But even if I had said something connecting the 2, like how Prince was fatter at the same age, & likely than Ruth ever was…

    You understand that this would only have been comparing their BUILDS, right?

    And that I never indicated any similarity in any substansive matter of baseball talent or slugging prowess, right?

    And you are well aware that I have repeatedly said the contract was excessive, correct?

    And that I said IF he was amongst the very best hitters today, THEN with the DH, he would be worth the money, ’cause of what he could do before he declines, & that after the same % decline, he would still be contributing a good amount, right?

    But again, that he is not a Pujols level offensive force.

    Even more consistent in games played, less in production. Forget about the large difference in the other aspects of their game. Though once again, if Fielder had the OPS + Albert did-or what he had through the same age-then he could be worth the contract even if a DH for the last several years.

  193. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: You understand that this would only have been comparing their BUILDS, right?

    So… If some said “that hossrex… He’s sure a hell of a lot like Leonaro DiVinci!”

    You would find that an apt comparison? I mean… Sure… Hoss isn’t as smart as him, I’m not as good of an artist as him, I haven’t invented any helicopters recently… But both those dudes have similar BUILDS, amiright?

    What does it matter that DiVinci’s defining characteristic wasn’t his build? Who cares how misleading it would be to make such a comparison? I don’t give a hoot how confused everyone is going to be!


    So… If I may be allowed to re-summarize your opinion, it would now be: “Prince Fielder is JUST LIKE Babe Ruth, so it’s not such a bad deal! Sure… He’s not as good at baseball as Babe Ruth… But They both share a superficial trait! Just because that trait only has anything to do with the discussion insofar as its INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY that they EVER be related… But hopefully no one will notice!”

    Colonel Obvious reporting in: “you can’t be fucking surprised that people take exception to the notion that you’re comparing the easy answer for “best player of all time”, to “extra helping of couscous please!”"

    The only real question is whether or not Mr. Obvious received a promotion, or transfered his commission from the Navy to the Army.

  194. Raul Says:

    Happy 77th birthday, Hall of Famer Bob Uecker! I could say a lot about Uecker, but it’s all been said before.

  195. Brautigan Says:

    “Ryan Braun is skipping this year’s fan fest” citing it is “to sensitive a period for me”.

    Screw that. Dude is skipping it for the simple reason he is a jerk. Has nothing to do with a “sensitive period”. Unless he is taking too many female hormones to mask his PED use.

  196. John Says:

    Or because the only thing anyone’s going to be asking him is about the case – which he’s not allowed to talk about.

    Ryan Braun won 3 silver sluggers while testing negative at least 6 times. He tested negative at least twice this year. At some point later this month or early next month, we’re going to find out that, upon appeal, he was 100% innocent and hopefully the jerk-off who leaked the information to ESPN will find himself in prison, learning about anal rape through empirical observation.

  197. John Says:

    “Sure… He’s not as good at baseball as Babe Ruth… But They both share a superficial trait!”

    That’s…exactly the point we were making.

    Did you actually think anyone was comparing Babe Ruth and Prince Fielder in any way besides being fat?

    I mean, you can bring up Cecil Fielder all you want. Fact of the matter is that, at Prince’s age, Cecil had hit 126 career home runs. They’re different people, dude.

    And my larger point is that Prince (according to the “experts” ie morons) wasn’t supposed to even make it to the big leagues and certainly not develop into an all-star and perennial MVP candidate because of his weight. His weight was going to put him on the DL year-in and year-out.

    Well guess what? Those guys were wrong, wrong, wrong. 100% wrong. So, their opinion counts for very little in my mind.

    “On top of ALL of that… How impressive do you think Prince Fielder would be if he didn’t bat after Ryan Fucking Braun? And if any of you spout the saber-nonsense that it doesn’t matter who else is on the line-up… I’ll be forced to give you a very stern look.”

    Fielder doesn’t get protected by Braun by batting behind him…I feel like you have that backwards. I mean, having Braun helps his RBI totals but I would hope no one is paying him based on that.

  198. Raul Says:

    I’m confused.

    MLB did not do blood tests for HGH prior to the new CBA. Was that not true?

    Because if it is, why should anyone believe these players were NOT using?

  199. John Says:

    Well, I suspect we’ll know a little more about that next year.

  200. Hossrex Says:

    From what I read (I have no idea whether or not it’s true), even if this whole thing plays out the way it seems reasonable to assume it might (that he was taking a non-performance enhancing steroids as a treatment for… LoL… Herpes), he’ll still be responsible for a failed drug test, because it’s his clearly stated responsibility to report any prescribed medication which might influence the results PRIOR to the administration of the test.

    The article was not definitive if that means he’ll simply have a failed test on his record, or if he’ll still need to serve the 50 day vacation.

    I have a feeling he’ll be able to preserve his BASEBALL reputation, if not his PUBLIC reputation.

    If I were a millionaire with an amazing body, I’d be banging whores just the same, but I like to think I wouldn’t be runnin’ around in the rain without an umbrella.

  201. Raul Says:

    Baseball hammers and hammers players about knowing what substances go in their bodies. This is nothing new to players.

    Braun’s got no excuse and not a leg to stand on. He’s going down for 50 games. Whether it was because he purposely cheated, or because he’s a lazy idiot who didn’t check medication…doesn’t makea difference.

  202. Brautigan Says:

    I truly dislike speculating about things like this simply because there is probably a lot of informatin we don’t have access to, and when we make blanket statements, it often comes from ignorance.

    That said, many reputable people are prediciting Braun WILL serve the 50 game suspension.

    Whether deserving or not, I’ll comment on that after the fact.

  203. Hossrex Says:

    John: “Did you actually think anyone was comparing Babe Ruth and Prince Fielder in any way besides being fat?”

    Indulge me. If the point wasn’t “fat players aren’t necessarily a bad acquisition, because Babe Ruth was fat”, then what the fuck was it?

    I wasn’t accusing you of being stupid because I thought YOU THOUGHT Prince Fielder was as good as Babe Ruth (other than a couple high-larious jokes). I was accusing you of being stupid because your defense of a fat baseball player was to name the ONE legendary “fat guy” (in quotes, since as others have pointed out, Babe Ruth was taller, and about a hundred pounds lighter than Fielder. Remember John Goodman needing to LOSE weight to play him in that shitty movie?).

    If THAT isn’t true, by all means, please explain what Little Cecil has to do with The Babe.

    You would have thought all my talk about dismissing ridiculous outliers would have suggested that my real problem is your methodology, not your inability to properly gauge talent (although you’re also notoriously bad at that as well).

    Babe Ruth and Prince Fielder have less than one thing in common… So I stand by my point. It’s an absurd comparison REGARDLESS of how it was meant.

    Do I need to draw another fucking picture here?

  204. John Says:

    There’s plenty of examples of big ballplayers who’ve succeeded mightily into their late 30’s. The Babe is just the most blatant example.

    There’s also plenty of examples of perfectly fit ballplayers who can’t go a full season without getting hurt.

    Prince Fielder has played more games than anyone in baseball since 2006. The last 3 years, he has gone 162, 161 and 162. Again, he was supposed to be out of baseball by now, according to the experts. I feel like he should have to be injured ONE TIME in his ENTIRE career, before people have any right to comment on how his weight is going to affect his ability to stay in the lineup.

  205. Chuck Says:

    There have been 12 appealed drug suspensions.

    There have been zero successful appeals.

    Braun will make it 13-13.

    “And my larger point is that Prince (according to the “experts” ie morons) wasn’t supposed to even make it to the big leagues”

    Fielder was the seventh overall pick in the 2002 draft. I don’t recall any expert or moron saying he wouldn’t make the major leagues.

    And if YOU thought he’d be putting up the numbers he is back then, that would make you the moron.

    “Hey Cheater, way to go..Prince leaves and you cheat you piece of shit, way to go, thanks for helping us finish fourth this year you fucking asshole.”

    Not hearing that 500 times is why Braun’s not going.

    That, and he’s a jerk.

    Walks like a duck….

  206. Bob Says:

    Somehow, I think Braun will win his appeal.
    If MLB, in its infinite wisdom, can cut Manny a 50 game slack, I think MLB will do the same for Braun.
    I do not think there will be any resentment on the part of the players, as they will know why he took the drug. And the fact of the matter is that he will have to hear crude chants, and read demeaning placards about his problems. And I expect the Matt Kemp fans to be the loudest, if not most creative.

  207. John Says:

    “nd if YOU thought he’d be putting up the numbers he is back then, that would make you the moron.”

    Um, that would’ve made me ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

    Chuck, you’re said yourself that Prince wouldn’t have been drafted if not for his dad.

    If that was actually the case, then I think the last 6 years have shown what total morons those people are.

    “There have been 12 appealed drug suspensions.
    There have been zero successful appeals.”

    You realize that means absolutely nothing right?

  208. Raul Says:

    Either Braun knew the medication he took contained an illegal substance, in which case he gets banned 50 games when he could have filed an exemption for the drug with MLB.

    Or he didn’t know – in which case he gets banned 50 games because MLB has made it very clear that ignorance is not an excuse.

    Exactly what is the problem here?

  209. Chuck Says:

    “Um, that would’ve made me ABSOLUTELY RIGHT”

    Not in 2002, genius.

  210. Raul Says:

    So the past means nothing when it comes to appealed drug suspensions @ Post 207.

    Yet somehow the past means everything when it comes to a fat man’s aging, flying in the face of …historically fat people with limited skill set?


  211. Chuck Says:

    “You realize that means absolutely nothing right?”

    So, should we wait until after the suspension is over?

  212. Chuck Says:

    “Chuck, you’re said yourself that Prince wouldn’t have been drafted if not for his dad.”

    No, I said he wouldn’t have been drafted in the first round.

  213. Bob Says:

    When MLB reduced Manny’s suspension from 100 to 50 games, they established a precedent. Perhaps an unwise one, but one nonetheless. And taking medication for herpes is a much more valid reason that wanting to retire, and then come back and hoping they display leniency.

  214. John Says:

    Well, he was, and he hit 230 home runs.

    But it only counts as 165 because he can’t be an underwear model.

  215. Bob Says:

    Kevin Whelan was designated for assignment by the Yankees.

  216. Raul Says:

    So…banned substances for herpes is more noble than banned substances to be better than everyone else?

    Are we drawing our own lines here?
    A substannce is banned…unless we like your excuse?

  217. Bob Says:

    Not more noble. More medically necessary.

  218. Raul Says:

    So then why didn’t he get a medical exemption?

  219. Chuck Says:



  220. Bob Says:

    1. He failed to ask.
    2. He thought a doctors note would suffice when he and he alone was alerted about his results.
    3. He fucked up.
    4. But again, how was Manny able to get penalty reduced? Reduce Braun’s penalty by half. 25 games I suppose might be fair.

  221. Hossrex Says:

    John: “Um, that would’ve made ABSOLUTELY RIGHT”

    That you HONESTLY believe that says SO much about why you’ve said so much stupid shit over the years.

    If I say pigs can’t fly, and you say they can… And then nine years later some farmer breeds a chicken with a pig… That doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have been stupid nine years earlier.

    Let me break this down (I can’t BELIEVE you’re making me do this):

    Baseball is a physical vocation.
    Baseball players are multi-million dollar investments.
    Being overweight is unhealthy.
    Unhealthy people have a more difficult time doing physical activities.
    Unhealthy people are generally unable to perform physical activities for the typical duration of healthy people.
    Baseball players who have a more difficult time doing physical activities are a justifiable concern, because they are a multi-million dollar investment.
    Baseball players who’re unable to perform physical activities for a typical duration are a justifiable concern, because baseball players are multi-million dollar investments.
    Thus, Prince Fielder is an unwise investment because he is a multi-million dollar baseball player required to perform physical activities at the level of, and for a duration, which he wouldn’t generally e expected to sustain.

    Transitive properties for the win!

    You aren’t a genius because you overpay a fatty who happens to play better then expectations, you’re a moron who got lucky.

    For the LIFE of me, I honestly can’t believe anyone would disagree with the above.

  222. Hossrex Says:

    John: “But it only counts as 165 because he can’t be an underwear model.”

    No, you moron. No one is taking anything away from the accomplishments of either Fielder. We’re saying it’s an unwise investment, because at any given at-bat, he’s more likely to injure himself than a healthier player.

    If you can get him cheap, or if he was the only first baseman near his past/current permance level, you might reasonably sign him… But in a game that includes so many dominant first baseman (nearly ALL of whom, incidentally, are better defenders), you’re just WRONG if you agree to give him 214 million dollars on a guaranteed nine year deal.

    TL:DR No one is saying Prince and Cecil didn’t/hasn’t put up big numbers. We’re saying it’s unwise to be so certain of that continued production that you make a designated hitter one of the highest paid athletes in the world.

  223. Chuck Says:

    Bob, when Manny “retired” he missed a bunch of games before making the decision, MLB decided to count some of those games as part of his suspension because he hadn’t formally retired and otherwise would have been active.

    There was no official appeal, his agent called MLB and it was a compromise.

    There has never been a successful appeal, Manny notwithstanding.

  224. Hossrex Says:

    It’s like some of you think you’re following the sage advice of Mr. Beane (I love his cute little car), by dismissing the common practice of judging players based on appearances… But the bigger morons are forgetting the ENTIRE FUCKING REASON Billy took the route he did… Because fatties were cheaper, and easier to take a chance on. If they don’t work out, or they perform well over short bursts, who the fuck cares? The dude only makes $20 grand per week.

    You’re taking your blackjack advice from a guy who plays five dollar hands 80 hours per week, and thinking that you’re still following his system when you follow all his rules, but instead of spreading out your investment to hedge your bets, you just say fuck it, and put your whole wad on one hand.

  225. John Says:

    “because at any given at-bat, he’s more likely to injure himself than a healthier player.”

    Or be the most durable player in the game.

    Which he has been.

  226. John Says:

    “you’re just WRONG if you agree to give him 214 million dollars on a guaranteed nine year deal.”

    For the record, I agree.

    Prince just isn’t a 23 million dollar a year player. He just isn’t.

    But it won’t shock me in the slightest when he ends up playing 1350 or so games at the end of this deal and STILL hasn’t found himself on the DL.

  227. Cameron Says:

    Which given that hack of a swing is a miracle.

  228. Hossrex Says:

    John: “Or be the most durable player in the game.”

    I don’t think you know what the word “likely” means.

    John: “Prince just isn’t a 23 million dollar a year player. He just isn’t.”

    *mouth agape in speechless amazement*

  229. Cameron Says:

    Hey, just curious. To people who like a sport and you don’t have a town close by where a team plays that sport, how do you go about choosing a favorite “home” team? As a KC resident, getting back into basketball was hard, but I gravitated towards being a Bulls fan from all the memories as a kid.

    …Given this season, I’ll call it a good choice.

  230. John Says:

    If I’m giving someone that kind of money, I need to be able to be able to imagine the following:

    “Even though he went 0-4, player X did something to partially offset their failure at the plate.”

    Like, the contracts to Tex, Gonzalez, and Pujols, I can look at and say that at least those 3 guys are probably the 3 best defensive 1B in the game.

    Or with Troy Tulowitzki, he gets to roughly an extra ball every game that an average SS won’t.

    Joe Mauer calls a good game and works well with a pitching staff at the game’s most grueling position.

    Hossrex’s least favorite chokiest choker Matt Kemp has great speed that can force an error in the field. He too has developed into a fantastic defensive player (sidenote: I got the impression that he cut down on mental mistakes in the field, any opinion on that, Hoss?)

    If Prince Fielder goes 0-4, it was a total waste because he ain’t helping you anywhere else. Therefore, for that money, he dominate that one aspect of his game pretty damn hard. I don’t think that Prince is quite at that level with the bat – he’s about a notch-and-a-half below.

    Fact of the matter is that even though Prince may very well keep getting into the lineup 650 times a year for the next 9 years, his performance probably won’t justify that level of contract. 9 figures? Sure. But not the fourth highest contract freaking ever.

  231. John Says:

    @229, couldn’t you just as easily become an OKC fan? Durant and company…it’s a good young crew.

  232. Hossrex Says:

    I’ve never said a word against Matty Kemp’s talent. I’ve mentioned this before, but I would be frightened if you followed my life close enough to remember everything I say… But I didn’t watch much baseball this year, for myriad reasons, surprisingly few of them baseball related. That in mind, I’m not dodging the question when I say I simply don’t feel qualified to give a good answer.

    I don’t have any particular problem with Matty Kemp’s glove… Dudes actually pretty fucking spectacular, and crazy fun to watch.

    I always kinda hoped this was implied in my tone (although I honestly admit it probably wasn’t), but I don’t really hate Matty Kemp. He frustrates me as would a super intelligent under-achieving son. You know what he’s capable of, and when he comes home with an 800 on the SATs, you’re disappointed, and that disappointment manifests (inappropriately) as anger.

    That and he’s a chokey ass choker.

    I’m confused why you ever defending the signing, if you’re making complete sense now.

    You said it as well as I could have… The dude is one dimensional. A two tool player a best… Which I grant simply because I’m unaware of, and can’t be bothered to check his batting average.

    He’s a two tool player making five tool money.


    How hard could it possibly be to find a designated hitter who can mash, if that’s ALL you care about?

  233. Hossrex Says:


    I’ve had this problem with football for years. I want to get into it, but I live in/was born in southern California.

    My choices are two bay area teams (I don’t want no part of no city that needs to pass a law mandating naked people need to sit on a towel in restaurants), San Diego, or fucking St. Louis.

    Sadly Street Louis is the most likely choice… But… Ewwwww…

    So… Instead I make a hobby out of hating football… Mostly out of spite.

  234. Raul Says:

    Having lived in SoCal for the last year, I can tell you there are Chargers fans…and then everyone else finds some eastern team to root for.

    Chances are though…you’re looking at UCLA and USC fans. College football is kind of a big deal, it seems.

  235. John Says:

    “but I don’t really hate Matty Kemp. He frustrates me as would a super intelligent under-achieving son. You know what he’s capable of, and when he comes home with an 800 on the SATs, you’re disappointed, and that disappointment manifests (inappropriately) as anger.”

    Well that’s just it…until this year, Matt Kemp was a huge underachiever. This year, he had a season that was on par with some of the best seasons of all-time.

    “How hard could it possibly be to find a designated hitter who can mash, if that’s ALL you care about?”

    Well, there aren’t a ton of hitters out there who can mash quite the way Fielder can, whether designated or otherwise. Those that can are locked up.

    “I’m confused why you ever defending the signing, if you’re making complete sense now.”

    I’m not defending the signing; I think it’s entirely too much. I just can’t think of a player who has done more to answer questions about his durability than Prince Fielder. You’re worried about him collapsing under his own weight and spending 500 games on the DL; I’m worried that unless every season is like his 2009 year, he just won’t justify the contract. Look at his 2008 and 2010 seasons…they aren’t 23 million dollar seasons; hell, are they even 10 million dollar seasons?

  236. Cameron Says:

    There’s always KC, Hoss. We’ve got a good fanbase and you kinda expect the team to suck, so dealing with losing seasons is easy. Oh, and we’ve got kickass tailgating.

  237. Cameron Says:

    @231 I’m a huge fan of OKC as well. Durant and Westbrook are now in town for the next five years and Harden and Ibaka are a great pair of dynamic young guys, but this is a team that’s making memories, not memories I already have.

  238. Mike Felber Says:

    The truth seems somewhat in between. Hoss, you said a few perfectly valid things-& other stuff that denotes your tendency to shoot from the hip, understand claims incorrectly, then, your never admit I am wrong disease kicks in. Don’t worry, it is a common modern syndrome, sweeping across all ideologies.

    However, if you want to argue decently & have make your point more likely to be acknowledged, you will stop calling people stupid. Not me in this case. It is antithetical to your hope that folks are more logical when you do this, undermining the likelihood that you will not “have” to make a bunch of exasperating clarifying posts.

    First: you summed up what I claimed completely incorrectly, after I have corrected your misapprehension a few times. All my posts support the points I keep making.

    I IN NO WAY equated Babe Ruth & Cecil Fielder that indicated or remotely implied that:

    1) They were similar in skills, contributions, or any other baseball related point.

    2) Nor did I indicate or imply that thus it was not such a bad deal.

    In point of fact, I have repeatedly said it was NOT a good deal! Nobody here is saying he is worth nearly $24 million a year, that is a Straw Man.

    The weight issue was ONLY being as precise as possible about their builds & how much they weighed when. Capiche?

    For the record, saying Fielder weighs nearly 100 lbs. more than Ruth did is an exaggeration. That would only be “technically” true when comparing Prince to Ruth when he came up at “198 lbs. & no body fat”. The discussed comparison was to Ruth from at least the mid ’20’s on, when he weighed varying amounts, but look at pictures, he must have averaged the better part of 250.

  239. John Says:

    My last basketball memory is the Bucks trading Ray Allen for 2 months of Gary Payton.

    That would be like, if in 2008, the Rays decided to trade Evan Longoria for Chipper Jones to make their playoff run.

  240. Cameron Says:

    The Bucks right now… Are an interesting team. They’re not good, as their forwards are (I think) Luc Richard Mbah A Moute and Ersan Ilyasova, possibly the worst 3-4 in the league. I love Jennings and Jackson in the backcourt and Bogut is one of the best centers in the league. Give it time, there may be hope soon enough.

  241. Cameron Says:

    After reviewing the other 29 3-4s in the league, the next-worst one I could find is New Orleans with Trevor Ariza and Carl Landry.

    …Still take them over Milwaukee in a fucking heartbeat.

  242. Chuck Says:

    Who cares about the NBA.

    I don’t even care about college bball anymore. UCONN has this freshman center Andre Drummond who’s a fucking beast, and he’s one and done.

    Why bother?

  243. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, a UCONN player is making a huge case for rookie of the year so far. Mr. Kemba “How in the hell was he drafted NINTH!?” Walker.

  244. Cameron Says:

    Actually kind of excited of one of the games on tonight. Memphis vs. the LA Clippers. Two young teams with two dynamic playstyles. Lob City is hammering that pick and roll for Paul and Griffin and Memphis is player-for-player, quite possibly the best front five in the league and they actually focus on good, young big men in Randolph and Gasol, with Gay anchonring the frontcourt.

    …Fuck, I just remembered Zach Randolph’s hurt.

  245. Cameron Says:

    Wow, in between looking at Ricky Rubio, Jose Calderon, and the Gasol brothers, I realize that (at least in the NBA), the Spanish are some hairy motherfuckers.

  246. Mike Felber Says:

    For the record, while I would not have wanted Fielder for 9 years & do feel that even with his remarkable durability he is less likely to be very good late in his career, he is young enough that it would have been a decent deal-at no more than around 15 million per year.

    Raul is right in post 211. Though I have no hard line about whether Rraun should have his sentence mitigated if it was a valid medical treatment & he screwed up in getting it approved. If that can be well established, he did not have a potential actual physical advantage nor mean to cheat. Though you need to make sure other folks cannot fake this, & you may want to make sure others are not careless with the rules & get suspended without using PEDs by keeping the 50 day suspension in place.

    Often folks here someone argue one thing, & assume that they mean a whole constellation of other things. It is lazy & stereotypical thinking. Thus if John speaks out in favor of Fielder’s durability, or I just comment about a # of player’s physiques, the irrational conclusion becomes Fielder can do no wrong, Fielder is worth the contract.

    Despite explicitly saying otherwise, many times. That thinking is kind of insane. In a debate format,this would be the result for those making the false claims.

    “You will lose”.

  247. Chuck Says:

    “Mr. Kemba “How in the hell was he drafted NINTH!?” Walker.”

    You’re right, at worst he should have been the second 1 taken.

  248. Cameron Says:

    I like Brandon Knight, but yeah… Kemba was rightfully in the competition for #1 overall. How Toronto drafted Valuncianas over Walker is astounding. Jonas can’t join Toronto until next year and he’s gonna be Bargnani’s backup anyway. Do they really like Jose Calderon THAT much?

  249. Brautigan Says:

    Cameron: Logic dictates that you become a Sacramento King fan. Used to be the Cincinnati Royals, then they packed up and moved to Kansas City and became the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Then they packed up and moved to Sacramento. And then Sacramento packed up and …………

    Wait, Chuck is right, the NBA largely is boring and should be ignored. Pretty much like pro soccer.

  250. Cameron Says:

    I do kinda like the Kings. Evans and Cousins give it hope, but it’s a tough division and they don’t have the talent to compete. Like, at all.

  251. Brautigan Says:

    Yankees sign Hiroki Kuroda.

    That is an interesting pick up. Let’s see if he can keep the ball in the rocket launching pad known as Yankee Stadium.

  252. Cameron Says:

    He’ll give good enough numbers, but I think he’ll get a fair amount of shelling. Just about everyone does in New York.

  253. Hossrex Says:

    Raul says: “Chances are though…you’re looking at UCLA and USC fans.”

    Agreed. UCLA here… But it just aint the same… At least to me.

    John says: “Well that’s just it…until this year, Matt Kemp was a huge underachiever. This year, he had a season that was on par with some of the best seasons of all-time.”

    Yeah… In a year where the Dodgers spent more time in the basement than a bad Internet stereotype. It’s an emotional reaction, not a rational one. I freely admit that.

    John says: “Well, there aren’t a ton of hitters out there who can mash quite the way Fielder can, whether designated or otherwise. Those that can are locked up.”

    Meh… Agreed.

    John says: “You’re worried about him collapsing under his own weight and spending 500 games on the DL”

    While I don’t take particular offense to that supposition, my concern is better described as nervousness that his health will get to the point where home runs are turning into deep fly ball outs. He doesn’t have (or at least hasn’t demonstrated) the raw ability to adjust into a different type of hitter when the power begins to fade… And let me tell you how rapidly obesity will age a person.

    Just because a guy is healthy enough to pick up a bat, doesn’t mean he’ll retain the ability to hit a ball 500 feet. That’s the concern. Not that his arms are going to fall off.

    At 35, Pujols can be reasonably expected to still bat .280, and OBP .360.

    Will Prince?

    Cameron says: “There’s always KC, Hoss. We’ve got a good fanbase and you kinda expect the team to suck, so dealing with losing seasons is easy. Oh, and we’ve got kickass tailgating.”

    Nothing against KC, but I’m a homer. I broke a four generation legacy of Cubs fans. I remember being like 8, and telling my dad I wanted a Dodgers hat instead of a Cubs hat.

    My father is now comfortable with my lifestyle choice, but I’d be lying if I said he wasn’t a little sad that he isn’t going to have grandchildren… Who’re Cubs fans.

    Mike says: “your tendency to shoot from the hip”

    Meh… Probably a fair statement.

    Mike says: “your never admit I am wrong disease”

    I admit I’m wrong here a lot more often then anyone else. I admit when I’m being irrational, unlike anyone else on the planet. If you think I’m wrong, explain why. If you make rational points, I will have no option but admit I’m wrong.

    Mike says: “make your point more likely to be acknowledged, you will stop calling people stupid.”

    It’s humor. See where John and I are having a perfectly civil conversation AROUND the debate where I’m calling him a retard? That’s because, his myriad flaws aside, John seems to realize that not only don’t I think he’s stupid, not only don’t I hate him… But I actually like the guy. Being routinely wrong about baseball isn’t something which would make me hate the asshole.

    Mike says: “I IN NO WAY equated Babe Ruth & Cecil Fielder that indicated or remotely implied that”

    Okay. So I’m not talking to you then when I call people stupid for believing that.

    If I said “everyone who likes that shitty ‘Achy Breaky Heart’ song is a fag (calm down, I’m using it ironically)”… And I’m assuming here you don’t (apologies if I’m wrong)… Would it be reasonable for you to scream out that you’re not a ‘fag’?

    Or would you assume I’m not talking to you (because you don’t meet the prerequisites for the insult), and move on to chide me for using such inappropriate inflammatory language?

    You don’t think prince is as good as babe Ruth. Good. Why keep assuming I’m talking to you?

    Mike says: “In point of fact, I have repeatedly said it was NOT a good deal! Nobody here is saying he is worth nearly $24 million a year, that is a Straw Man.”

    When the scarecrow keeps bitching, you gotta assume he’s taking an issue with something you’re saying… No?

    Mike says: “The weight issue was ONLY being as precise as possible about their builds & how much they weighed when. Capiche?”

    There you go again. You just admtted you were projecting a supposition about Prince based on Ruth’s weight, and since my whole point was “you can’t demonstrate anything about anything by citing one outlying example”, I don’t understand why you keep saying it if you don’t believe it.

  254. Cameron Says:

    True Hoss, but it’s kind of impossible to be a homer for football in LA, you know? Just a friendly bit of conversion is all.

  255. Hossrex Says:

    Mike says: “For the record, while I would not have wanted Fielder for 9 years & do feel that even with his remarkable durability he is less likely to be very good late in his career, he is young enough that it would have been a decent deal-at no more than around 15 million per year.”

    Yet you argue with people saying that exact thing.

    What the fuck are we SUPPOSED to think?

  256. Hossrex Says:

    Cameron says: “True Hoss, but it’s kind of impossible to be a homer for football in LA, you know? Just a friendly bit of conversion is all.”

    I agree… At least with the former (thus the spite)… The latter unfortunately is an irrational problem I have.

    I have one friend… Also born and bred in So-Cal… Who likes the Yankees, the Packers, and the Bulls. Another (again, life long Californian) who likes the Mets, the packers (always the fucking packers), and the Celtics.

    I don’t want to be “THAT” asshole.

  257. Kerry Says:

    Is Bob or anyone else going to publish another trade deadline prediction article soon? I have something on a completely different subject ready to go, but if another article is imminent I can hold off for a few days. No need to bunch them together when there’s only one a week :-)

  258. Kerry Says:

    @256, hey, quit dissing the Packers! I must admit to being a Packer fan, but it comes naturally; I was infected by my roommate at Wisconsin, who was a total fanatic for them. And my significant other’s family lives in Green Bay and gets tickets to some of the games, so they accepted me right away :-)

    BTW, the Packer Hall of Fame at Lambeau is very nice; I went there last year.

  259. Hossrex Says:

    By the way… Funny story… The Mets fan in the anecdote above is best friends with the Yankees fan (with all the creepy implications inherent between two adult males who actually use that phrase)… And the Mets fan is a Mets fan because he decided to start liking baseball during the 2000 Subway series, when his “bestie” invited a bunch of people over to watch Game 1, and the dude (his name is fucking “Vernon” of all things… Don’t call him Vern, or he might cry) literally says these exact words: “well, you’re a Yankees fan, so I’m going to be a Mets fan, so it’ll be fair to both teams.”

    Like a fucking woman. I swear.

    Nice dude, but a huge bitch.

    (hopefully neither Vernon or Ian secretly post here under a pseudonym… It would be impossible not to know I’m talking about him)

  260. Chuck Says:

    “It’s humor. See where John and I are having a perfectly civil conversation AROUND the debate where I’m calling him a retard?”

    Should have been around a month or so ago when Mike was lecturing us on OWS.

    Now THAT was humor(ous).

  261. Hossrex Says:

    Kerry says: “my significant other’s family lives in Green Bay”

    As long as your reasoning is better than “because they’re perennial post-season residents”, we don’t got a problem.

    It’s astounding how often people in Lompoc fucking California are packers fans… And Bulls fans…. And Yankees fans… And… Fuck… I literally don’t know enough about hockey to even know which are the dynasty teams. :p

    It ain’t because they have family in Wisconsin.

  262. Cameron Says:

    Bandwagon legacy teams… I’m gonna say Detroit. I find Red Wings fans everywhere.

  263. Kerry Says:

    I must admit to liking the Yankees when I was very young, partly because they were good and partly because of Mickey Mantle. Fortunately I grew out of that and even more fortunately I lived closest to St. Louis and became a Cardinals fan. Now I get to have my cake (root for the “home” team) and eat it too (root for a World Series winner). And one of the local radio stations here in Iowa even carries Cardinals games, even though the local AAA team is a Cubs affiliate (the Cubs are carried on another station).

  264. Bob Says:

    Kerry, yesterday I sent John my NLEast trade predictions. I also know he said he was working on a Tigers column. ( If he cannot I will gladly do it) But the one major complaint about this site is the lack of articles we have. So fire one off, and we can go from there.

  265. Bob Says:

    @262. Watch out for the Lions in 2 years. Also, ask them to name a Lion other than Barry Sanders or Bobby Layne. Find out if they know their shit.
    And ask these Wing dans to name their favorite player other than
    1. Howe
    2. Yzerman
    3. Your job to weed them out.
    4. See you guys tomorrow.

  266. Kerry Says:

    OK. It’s totally unrelated to anything else, basically historical — I was playing around on and before I knew it had written an article…

  267. Bob Says:

    Before I go, the Indians signed former Sox stalwart Dan Wheeler.

  268. Brautigan Says:

    Prior to the Giants and Dodgers move to the West Coast, the Cardinals were the favored team in the Pacific Northwest. Just as the Los Angeles Rams were until the Seattle Chickenhawks got a team in 1976. Even though San Francisco is closer to Portland, the Rams were the NW team. They even played an exhibition game at the rodeo grounds in Pendleton, Oregon around 1960. Unheard of today.

  269. Mike Felber Says:

    Funny, my Talmudic detailed points, counterpoints & links on OWS had no semblance of a rebuttal.

    Hoss, I am sure you know that the tone & intent of things is not so readily discernible on the Internet. Folks have left here due to it,& when the intent was not so roughly male bonding as you imply. As Brautigan & others have written, & there have been hard feelings & vindictive mockery. You mean it that way & john does not mind, fine. Though it TENDS to lead to offense, aggression & tack oif admitting wrong on all sides.

    At any rate it is better than the huge bitch/like a woman macho/sexist & nonsense. But lets leave that aside for now.

    You have only been sporadically around at all recently. I do not recall you admitting wrong, maybe you have, any examples welcome. But I am having trouble understanding how YOU do not comprehend me.

    I specifically said you were not talking to me, in a brief & unmistakeable comment, re: stupidgate (sic).

    You were talking to me in statements like this, & never “admitted wrong”:
    “Prince Fielder is JUST LIKE Babe Ruth, so it’s not such a bad deal! Sure… He’s not as good at baseball as Babe Ruth… But They both share a superficial trait! Just because that trait only has anything to do with the discussion insofar as its INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY that they EVER be related… But hopefully no one will notice!”

    I clearly never used a weight & build rationale to establish anything about how good or bad a deal it was. Go back & review what i wrote, with precision. The senseless presumption has been if I quibble about build or weight, I am using at as evidence of the quality of the deal. That is madness (overstated, persistently irrational is the truth).

    Now you finally understand how i feel re; worth a max of 15 Million per year. But WHY oh why do you think i argued with anybody who reached the same conclusion?

    The answer is you assumed a whole passel of beliefs i do not hold nor ever implied. IF I felt that his weight would likely have no impact on his play, I would have said so. Hell, even John, who is more sanguine about his durability than me, has had to repeatedly clarify that he is not worth that money!

    Though it is not because he is a 2 tool player. If he was on the order of a Williams, it would be a quite reasonable deal! His total value & what he likely will produce for 9 years, even considering the benefit to the gate, is excessive.

  270. Raul Says:

    Please…please, do not type “gate” at the end of something to suggest a scandal or controversy.

    It’s the single dumbest thing in writing/journalism.

  271. Cameron Says:

    No, the dumbest thing is trying to pass ads off as news stories. I call it Adgate. …Actually, I don’t, but I did to piss you off. Because I’m a prick.

  272. JohnBowen Says:

    Mike: “Though it is not because he is a 2 tool player. If he was on the order of a Williams, it would be a quite reasonable deal! His total value & what he likely will produce for 9 years, even considering the benefit to the gate, is excessive.”

    But that’s just it – Fielder is a 2-tool player with a career 143 OPS+. That’s outstanding production, but for 23 million a year, you better be able to contribute in other ways.

  273. Mike Felber Says:

    Ha, good one!

    Folks who are so inclined will get angry by anything-of course, I do not consider it a hypocrisy to say that a personal or group (sexist, racist, homophobic…) insult is different than a stupid or banal pun.

    Which I agree the gate appendage tends to be. Though harmless. Besides liking word play arguably too promiscuously, I enjoy the conceit & irony oif elevating an exceedingly localized trivial debate into something as clearly as inapplicable as a “gate”.

    This woman was really compassionate not to nail him to the wall here, she felt protective & perceived him as “in trouble”. She could have been angry & too PC. She is classy to this day.

  274. JohnBowen Says:

    As far as my favorite teams, I’m a total homer. Brewers, Packers, UW for football, Marquette for basketball (and to a lesser extent, UW), Bucks (but not really).

    The only exception is that Milwaukee doesn’t have an NHL team. I’ve never really been into hockey, but started watching it a little more in the last couple years; one of my companymates was a huge Bruins fan, so I casually latched onto them.

    And, because they won the Stanley Cup like 6 weeks later, that makes me a bandwagon fan.

    Whatever…it’s not like I even know what color the blue line is.

  275. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree John, though that is exactly what i am saying. His likely total value-past & reasonable projections-is way less than just under 24 million per year.

    Williams had an OBP+ heavy (more impact on total run production) 190 OPS +. While missing the better part of absolutely prime years Without the DH.

  276. KerryWhisnant Says:

    John, if you want to get into hockey, go college — UW has won many NCAA championships, although this year the men’s team is mediocre at best for some strange reason. The UW women have been the best team in college hockey for several years. But going to a college hockey game is a blast.

  277. Mike Felber Says:

  278. Raul Says:

    @ Mike 277

    I was with them until #1 and #2.

    #2, because I don’t think anyone is proud of being old.
    #1, because I really don’t recall that being much of a big deal.

    I do think pride in one’s nationality should be on the list.
    As George Carlin said…well I would rather let him say it:

    Scroll, if you like, to the 1:10 mark or so…

  279. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “Hoss, I am sure you know that the tone & intent of things is not so readily discernible on the Internet. Folks have left here due to it”

    Yup. Over sensitive little pussies everywhere. It’s a shame the rest of us normal people need live on tenterhooks to avoid possibly hurting the feelings of a stranger who shouldn’t be reasonably expected to take anything remotely personal.

    It’s called hyperbole. Exaggeration for dramatic effect.

    If your self worth is so fragile that the opinion of a person who has absolutely no impact on your life can give you a legitimate negative emotional reaction, you probably need to be offended more often.

    Toughen your bitch ass up.

    I mean… Seriously… Right?

    Mike says: “any examples welcome”

    How about this thread, a handful of posts BEFORE you accused me of never admitting fault, where I freely admit I’m not being rational about Matty Kemp?

    Mike says: “I clearly never used a weight & build rationale to establish anything”

    Then why bring it up at all? For what your saying to make sense, we must accept that in a discussion about the relative merits of Prince Fielder, you made a completely off topic comment about how two completely unrelated gentlemen share a trait completely unrelated to the discussion.

    So… Sure… I guess I can accept that you were trying to be completely random with no substantive body.

    I guess.

    Mike says: “Now you finally understand how i feel re; worth a max of 15 Million per year. But WHY oh why do you think i argued with anybody who reached the same conclusion?”

    I agree, that would be a completely nonsensical thing for you to do… But here we are. You’re STILL arguing a point you aren’t making.

    Mike says: “The answer is you assumed a whole passel of beliefs i do not hold nor ever implied.”

    I admit I was making the assumption that you were engaging in the same discussion as the rest of us.

    Mike says: “His total value & what he likely will produce for 9 years, even considering the benefit to the gate, is excessive.”

    Ironic that in a comment where you spend 500 words telling me to pay closer attention, you again imply that my point was “prince fielder sucks”, instead of what everyone (myself most specifically… Over and over and over again) is actually saying… “Prince’s weight is enough of a concern to make such a large, and long contract illadvised.”

    I’ve said that repeatedly.

    Cameron said: “Because I’m a prick”

    Oh snap! I call it “Prickgate”.

    Johnbowen said: “But that’s just it – Fielder is a 2-tool player with a career 143 OPS+. That’s outstanding production, but for 23 million a year, you better be able to contribute in other ways.”

    Fucking thank you. Also don’t forget that it’s not just 23 million… It’s 23 million EVERY YEAR for NINE years.

    Wait… Don’t we usually play the roles of antagonists?

    Kerry (I think) said: “if you want to get into hockey, go college”

    I swear to god I’m not trying to be funny… But I had no idea they played hockey in college.

    My knowledge of hockey is as much worse than my knowledge of football, than my knowledge of football is worse than my knowledge of baseball… And that’s saying something on both ends.

  280. Hossrex Says:

    Shit. That whole wall of text is TL;DR.

    My bad guys.

  281. KerryWhisnant Says:

    LOL @ Hoss:”But I had no idea they played hockey in college.”

    They play all kinds of other obscure sports (think lacrosse), so why not hockey? But I’m not surprised somebody in LA doesn’t run into it, it’s mainly a northern sport, big in New England and around the Great Lakes. No PAC 12 teams have a hockey team, at least not NCAA level (ASU has a club team, there may be others). The big-time NCAA hockey teams in Colorado are at Colorado College and the U. of Denver.

    One thing I like about college hockey is that they don’t just give a five-minute penalty for fighting, they throw you out of the game (and maybe the next game). There’s still a lot of hitting, but it emphasizes finesse a little more.

    Another thing I like is that it’s fast. Iowa State has a club team (read: not NCAA), and if you get there early enough you can get a seat right on the boards behind the goal — talk about being close to the action! You are literally a foot away from the players when they get checked into the boards, and errant shots sometimes are aimed right for your nose!

    OK, back to your regularly scheduled tirades.

  282. Mike Felber Says:

    Your example of Matt Kemp is good, thanks Hoss.

    But calling profane & macho names to those who are sensitive is just unkind. Now I am not one of those types-I’ll jus’ tell anyone all day, as nicely as possible, sometimes more force being necessary-when they are being nasty of abusive. Have confronted drug dealers, intervene in fights, HS kids in my area being rowdy…But just because some are sensitive Hoss, does not mean we should or there is a virtue in being as “tough” as possible. Anyone can be tough in this forum, by the way.

    Recall i agree that rough humor is fine, & I accept your intent. Though some everywhere, & all over the Blogosphere, are just abusive, petty, m ocking-in INTENT too. To take some care that those we take the piss out of are not spoken to or do not take it that way is basic decency.

    Internet civics lesson over. Some things you perceive about what i say are really puzzling Hoss: & I think it is becaquse you form a quick conclusion & run with it.

    You know I enjoy being precise. There is no reason to presume that if I comment on particulars of body type & weight, I am implying or supporting anything else! It IS substantive, others made quick or flippant statements about it: your brain jus’ went to thinking I meant more.

    It was not “besides the point”. It is also a separate matter folks were addressing.

    I did not ‘argue a point that I was not making”. I showed you what i actually felt, & had already said, about Fielder’s worth, since you seemed to believe something else entirely.

    I pay close attention. HOW do you believe that i implied that you said or believe Prince Fielder sucks? I never felt nor implied that. The quote saying the contract was excessive has nothing to do with what you said. Though it is your belief too. Believing he is overvalued nowhere indicates either one of us feels he sucks.

    It’s almost 24 Million per year. And John had also indicated it was excessive well before you quoted him. Only difference is he has a more optimistic view of how soon 7 much his skills will decline.

  283. Mike Felber Says:

    Not all pride in things you do not achieve is bad. Though it is nuanced-it should be a humble appreciation to be a member for something you love & find impressive, not an essentially egoistic indulgence.

    Carlin is brilliant & a great antidote to so much falseness & hypocrisy. Yet he became a huge misanthrope. You can see how he explicitly gave up on humanity & was admittedly, unabashedly amused by mass horrors of war & death. Honest to a fault, he admitted the charge of being a stereotypical cynic, that is a broken- hearted idealist.

    The fact remains equally sad & unfortunate.

  284. Cameron Says:

    I blame the IRS for breaking Carlin. Dude toured until the day he died to pay off back taxes from the 70s.

  285. Raul Says:

    My guess is if you get to be Carlin’s age and you’re not cynical, you probably haven’t learned anything.

  286. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “I’ll jus’ tell anyone all day, as nicely as possible, sometimes more force being necessary-when they are being nasty of abusive. Have confronted drug dealers”

    That’s my problem though, too many people these days forget they’re just words. They’re just words from someone you don’t actually know. They’re just words from someone you don’t know who can’t possibly have an effect on your life.

    That you psychologically associate that with real life bullying, or drug dealers (fer cryin’ ow’ lowd), speaks to a shift in the mental state of Americans, which makes the acceptance of the general populous regarding censorship, and in general the line of what constitutes freedom of speech moving ever closer towards obsolescence

    I’m in no way saying your in favor of censorship, I’m just saying people like you are why they’re getting away with it.

    They’re words man. All you’re doing by whining about it is further empowering the bully.


    Notice what happens when someone DOESN’T act like a bitch.

    We both laugh, and I say something nice about him like I did towards John just a dozen or so posts back. John didn’t empower the bully by acting like a pussy, so all of a sudden I wasn’t “picking on him”, because he didn’t let it turn into that. Because of his (correct) reaction, the exact situation you’re complaining about magically turned into two guys bullshitting with one another.

    Which means… The only difference between being bullied, and making a friend… Is NOT acting like a pussy.

    So… Since the outcome is INHERENTLY negative (while the alternative is INHERENTLY positive), I honestly don’t understand how you can defend the mindset.

    It’s 100% upto you to decide whether or not you’re going to get picked on when on the Internet… Why the fuck would you choose to be bullied?

    (note: I’m speaking to INTERNET squabbles. Real life bullying, ESPECIALLY when found in a place where a person is legally mandated to be, like school, is totally different. You don’t have the choice to ignore some asshole who won’t leave you the fuck alone, and won’t stop trying to make your life miserable… Although I would suggest that even when a person find himself in that situation, while obviously not the panecea it is online, it would be a good start. Laugh along with the rest. Keep a good nature about it. DON’T EMPOWER THE BULLY. But I totally agree that with PHYSICAL bullying the situation is 100% different.)

    You have a choice bro.

    Why choose pussy

  287. Hossrex Says:

    Carlin was playing a character. A very carefully, painstakingly crafted character, designed to represent a persona which would efficiently (and humorously) get a “real” point across. Take a look into the man’s process, even if just because he’s a fascinating man with a fascinating method. Every word was carefully selected, delicately perfected (at smaller venues on stage), and once satisfied locked into place forever.

    I’m not really even speaking to how he was or wasn’t… But the man on stage was (I’d hope somewhat obviously) a heavy exaggeration of what he was probably like.

    How the hell can you respect Carlin, and at the same time believe people should hold their tongues to protect the FEELINGS of others?

    Have you ever actually listened to him?

  288. Raul Says:

    I think the question “why choose pussy?” is…well…an entirely different discussion.

    But it should be rather obvious…unless…you know…you’re…Rick Santorum.

  289. Cameron Says:

    Ah, Santorum. I secretly hope he becomes the presidential nominee because the jokes will write themsevles.

  290. Hossrex Says:

    So long as Perry stays out of the race, I don’t really care.

    I agree with a lot about what Perry SAYS about the economy, but his definition of “Freedom of Religion” can better be described as “Freedom to Choose From Two or Three ‘Different’ Types of Christianity”.

    One of those assholes who says shit like “it’s freedom OF religion… Not freedom FROM religion”.

    He also has a stupid hat.

  291. Raul Says:

    Jorge Posada’s retirement press conference just reminded me how much I really hate it that athletes have to have press conferences to announce their retirement.

    It’s so stupid.

  292. Raul Says:

    Anyone think Tampa made a good decision, or crappy decision in signing Carlos Pena?

    Just asking because that puts them out as far as trade partners with Cincinnati to acquire Joey Votto.

    Or do they trade for him down the line anyway once they have a better idea of the quality of their team? (meaning, whether they can make a serious WS run)

  293. Hossrex Says:

    I was fucking shocked by a question on MLBtv today… “who’ll be the AL starting first baseman in the all-star game”:

    A. Gonzalez
    …and it seems like another very good… But not as good… Option.

    Four of those guys will probably deserve it, but will necessarily miss out.

    Regarding Pena: I don’t trust any fucker what has a not altogether much larger number of walks then extra base hits over the course of a career. Regardless of how you weight OPS, no one thinks it’s best to get THAT small amount of it from on-base.

    He’s Dave Kingman in an era of Lou Gehrig’s.

  294. Mike Felber Says:

    I respect your intelligence Hoss, & you argue well for your position right above. There is a good deal of truth in it too, though it is not the full story of what is best to do & how to react.

    First, I have seen a ton of Carlin, Just watched a bunch more of his talk show appearances & performances. If you follow him closely, you can easily see what was a character & was his belief-he actually repeatedly said in very public forums, serious as a heart attack, what i described. He became divorced from caring about the fate & horrible misfortunes of humanity. He descibes when the shift occurred, speaks up super soberly when audiences laugh at his outrageous statements that he means it, was explicitly “not vested” in the failure, suffering & death of humanity.

    A brilliant mind turned cold due to the hypocrisy & evil he saw, you would call him a conspiracy theorist. Though in a larger sense it did not matter-he presented great truths & illumination, whether or not one believes in the Illuminati-entertained & brought so many to a higher wavelength in many spheres.

    Carlin would not agree with you that one should never hold their tongues. He hated religion (I am an atheist, but he did not see real good there too), our political structure, our “illusion of freedoms”…That is DIFFERENT from whether it is good & right to impose some restraint on what you say. That is both being a better person, having some compassion, self interest, & allows society to function.

    Whether spouting all sexual desire to any girl you like, saying how ugly or scary a handicapped person is, how & why you effing hate the (insert racial epithet here), laughing at misfortune…This is NOT remotely similar to what Carlin championed or did.

  295. Mike Felber Says:

    I am breaking up the posts because many folks have ADD reading more than brief notes online.

    Yes Hoss, we can choose to respond charitably & be angry. Your prescription has much validity. But that does not mean that everyone can do so as well, nor is it fair or right to call anyone hurt by sometimes malicious attacks a “pussy”.

    I can see how you can misinterpret a statement of mine, so let me apologize for the ambiguity that lead you to believe I was equating your comments with the social ills I have confronted. I merely meant that I personally am rarely bothered in a personal way, though i will argue & confront folks endlessly (& hopefully with the spirit I preach about).

    You have rarely been mean spirited, & I applaud that generous spirit. But you want the truth, right? In the past you absorbed some of the angry zeitgeist here, though usually did not hold onto contempt. And something like your huge battles with Chuck: they could & usually WOULD end bitterly with someone gone, hating, & both parties worse for it.

    Actually it was a tribute to your mental flexibility, a better example than Matt Kemp. Though methinks you went a ‘lil too far/Stockholm syndrome there in swinging to the other side! ;-) Your old analogy about guys having a bar fight & then getting a drink afterwards-it usually does NOT end that way.

    You are right about you & John, overwhelmingly. But that is because 1) John is thick skinned, 2) He gave you the benefit of the doubt re: intention, 3) Your intentions were not hateful. These conditions do not usually apply. Also, if someone is being straight up abusive, whether it bothers you or not, that is being picked on. If that is not confronted, like vicious comments, say, about a race, it gives social approval, & other essentially “weak” or easily lead folks will go along, due to primal instincts & conditioning to be on the side of the strong/alpha/group.

    So there weakness ironically makes them ACT more tough & become more callous.

    Anyway, thanks for listening. There is no bright line here on how these things can go, it is just that erring on the side of respect, real & perceived, will make things better or at least not aggravate things. And helps launch our idea(l)s more effectively.

    So many Carlin videos I would like to link…on Bill Maher, Chris Rock, tonight show, Larry King…His breadth & depth of output & originality is stunning. And to do it before, during & after the expressive technical explosion of the ’60’s-so original & incisive.

    I’m gonna post to bring folks over here again, as we are getting more content. Likely when they have the most UNDERrated players in a couple of days.

  296. Hossrex Says:

    Catlin didn’t see value in atheism?

    Unless you mean that in the sense that atheism isn’t really an “ism”, so much as the rejection of an “ism”, and there really isn’t much inherent “value” (my word, not yours, used in quotes just to emphasize the loose usage of the word) in rejecting something, as much as there is in with what it’s replaced… You’re mad.

    Just because there isn’t much inherent “good” in rejecting the idea of Bigfoot (I love that my iPod autocorrects Bigfoot to a capitalized proper noun… As if he’s an individual, instead of a species of animal in cryptozoology. Maybe it thinks I mean the monster truck? Would the monster truck ), doesn’t mean there isn’t MUCH inherent BAD in FAILING to reject it.

    That’s like a quadruple negative… But that’s just the sort of thing that happens when discussing a negative proposition.

  297. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “nor is it fair or right to call anyone hurt by sometimes malicious attacks a “pussy”"

    But there in lies the rub.

    Who gets to decide what we call “malicious”?

    I would very (VERY) comfortably say that if you EVER consider the impersonal words of a stranger, dispensed through a non-physical medium, to EVER be “malicious”… You’re a fucking pussy, and should probably make an appointment with your physician at your earliest convenience to have a “sand-gyn-ectomy” (the removal of small particulates of mineral from ones internal genitilia, of course).

  298. Raul Says:

    Starting to wonder if Hoss is getting really, really tired of having to thoroughly explain every single one of his posts.

    I’ve never seen so many quotes and parenthesis on this website.
    …except for Mike Felber’s.

    But that’s because Mike is incapable of typing straight-forward sentences. George Carlin might call it verbal diarrhea.

  299. Chuck Says:

    On today’s episode of “Dugout Central Live”, internet Presidential candidate Mike Felber and future CNN News Corresondent Hossrex will return to continue their debate over Mike’s “Platform of Nothingness” campaign.

    Until then, a word from our sponsor, Preparation H.

  300. Lefty33 Says:

    “I’ve never seen so many quotes and parenthesis on this website”


    I just tore those buttons off my “keyboard” and threw them at my (wife’s cat).

  301. Chuck Says:

    In 2011, the top three prospects according to were Mike Trout, Matt Moore and Bryce Harper.

    In 2012, they are Moore, Harper and Trout.

    Can someone explain to me how someone who played 40 major league games can become a WORSE prospect than someone who played 26 games in AA?

  302. Raul Says:

    Ha @ Lefty

    Nope @ Chuck

    But I do seem to recall Bryce Harper struggling a bit at AA.

  303. Hossrex Says:

    @post 300 (hey… That is easier)

    Is it just me… Or does it seem like Lefty almost typed “my cat”, and then (in utter terror) backed up, and made it seem like his “wife’s” cat?

    It’s cool dude.

    It’s cool.

    Insofar as Mike and I go… A least from my perspective… There’s a real dearth of inteligence out there in he real world, so I enjoy intelligent conversation with an intelligent person (ironic that I look to the Internet for that, eh?).

    We disagree philosophically… Well… All the fucking time… But wouldn’t be much fun if we didn’t.

  304. Kerry Says:

    Hey, don’t know about Lefty, but we (my SO and I) own two cats and I’m not ashamed to admit it. In fact, I prefer cats, although dogs are OK (I enjoy having one visit, but wouldn’t want to live with one).

    “Can someone explain to me how someone who played 40 major league games can become a WORSE prospect than someone who played 26 games in AA?”

    Well, not saying it applies in this case, but hypothetically it depends on how said players performed in their MLB/AA games…

  305. Bob Says:

    Golden retrivers are the best pets. Don’t believe me??? Then ask
    1. Milt Wilcox
    2. Dan Majerle

  306. Chuck Says:

    I disagree with my sister in law all the time.

    Especially when she’s not taking her meds.

  307. Bob Says:

    About what? Golden retrievers?

  308. Hossrex Says:

    I had a cat when I met Miss Rex… But in my defense, it was from my significant other BEFORE the current Miss Rex (we’ll call her the “Ex-Rex”).

    It was one of those “we’re both in our early twenties, not ready for kids, so we get a cat because we can pretend its a baby”, sort of no sense situations we guys put up with because vaginas are soft.

    The cats ten now, and the funny thing is, if something happened to him now, I’d miss him WAY more than I ever did the Ex-Rex.

  309. Bob Says:

    Lol at 308.
    Have a good night.

  310. Mike Felber Says:

    False Raul. It is an ongoing polite debate, & some of the things that you think “have” to be explained are just incorrect. And many of my posts are like my late, 296. Though a good length, a single parenthesis, & a single word in quotations. You have again substituted am emotional impression from reality. That post & this one are full of straightforward sentences.

    Though it would be absurd to assume brevity & Hemingway-esque constructions are always better. Or most serviceable for all expressive or didactic purposes. Emerson & about a zillion writers on line 1 want to have a word with you. Note i am using simple sentences for your comfort, though these are not intrinsically superior. Big words, limited punctuation & detailed expositions not always bad. Simplest possible constructs do not equal better. Thus spake even Og the caveman, son of Gog.

  311. Mike Felber Says:

    Hoss, where did you get that Carlin did not see value in Atheism? It is both an “ism” & a rejection of one. That yes, is ironic that the absence of a very particular belief is defined as if a very specific one, just because the vast majority believe in God. He saw great value in atheism, like we do-though i disagree with his belief that religion is all horribly destructive. Much great moral, civic & political action came motivated by religion. As it can & does without it.

    Carlin also did detailed, whimsical, mulch-valence infused meaning infused rants that it would be el stupido to dismiss as verbal diarrhea. he was a wordsmith who did not have the simple minded idea that simple is always the most effective & aesthetically pleasing course. Just like believing the opposite would be so foolish.

    Platform of nothingness? I have tons of views Chuck, but have not joined in commenting on politics recently out of respect for your request for the Web Site.

    Hoss, thanks for the good words, but your pudendum related rants are kind of childish. I think you have missed the distinction: I am not personally hurt by said insults, & I agree itr is best not to be, AND it is a weakness to be personally wounded by ‘em.

    But by definition whether something, anything is malicious is determined by the intent. And so of course anonymous or any commentary can be 7 sometimes is malicious.

    And if we want to be decent, have a productive, rational debate, not be evil/cause harm in the world, we do not indulge in this, & condemn it when it occurs.

    Also, those who are vicious are in a way cowardly-I am against violence & mean responses, but we should be willing to say anything in person that we would type. And whether because of (appropriate) social pressure, shame, or fear of losing teeth, most flamers would not act so nasty & tough in person.

    It would be absurd to only put any responsibility, that not to be offended, on those who are targeted. The aggressor must be confronted, & we all should not tolerate abuse.

  312. Chuck Says:

    “Platform of nothingness? I have tons of views Chuck, but have not joined in commenting on politics recently out of respect for your request for the Web Site.”

    While I appreciate that Mike, I think we may have a misunderstanding of what I said.

    This is a baseball web-site, and while personal opinions regading politics, girlfriends, movies, music, deaths of celebrities are newsworthy topics, there is a difference between a mention and a full-fledged conversation.

    That said, I don’t own, operate, monitor, administer, or even care about this site, so please don’t feel like I’m some kind of internet Hitler.

    A little constructive feedback, you write in a very condescending tone, which quite frankly pisses me the f*ck off, but that’s my problem.

    Write what you want

  313. Raul Says:

    “Though it would be absurd to assume brevity & Hemingway-esque constructions are always better.”

    I’m here to tell you that in your case, it is always better.

    Though I do think it’s funny that a single situation could arise where your longwinded responses, filled with run-on sentences could possibly be better than anything Hemingway ever said.

  314. Mike Felber Says:

    OK, platform of nothingness must have been a joke, not a commentary on what i have said that could relate to a platform. I have respected your specific concern about delimited sensitive topics. Though do enjoy, & sometimes participate, in full conversations about more neutral topics.

    You have been gracious about this matter overall Chuck, that is all fine. Though i do not think it is true that you do not even care about the site! That you recently said you hoped was here when you returned. What happened with that job prospect anyway, anything yet?

    As for my tone: I will keep that in mind. Though please consider that it might seem this way because i must often clarify what i write: even when it is both explicit & I use “simple” sentences. Aggressively nut politely pointing out the substance of what is said vs. what is carelessly projected upon me is valid, & better than being profane about it.

    Thanks Raul, but telling me simpler is always better in my case is a premise missing any supporting evidence, pure opinion. Some of my comments have run on sentences. I am not trying to craft the perfect essay: I am more concerned about the substance being accurate & logical.

    I never presumed to put my writings, particularly what I right usually quickly here, to be similar to Hemingway in quality. That would be your projection of a blowhard cliche upon me, not seeing what I actually said or implied. I did not personalize how good or bad my writing was, just commented on simple not being always better.

    Though the writer has a responsibility to be clear to the reader, the reader also has a responsibility not to be a reflex monkey. To see reality, take the minimal care & patience to discern clear meaning. While not being conditioned to the lowest common denominator of an often ADD, flaming, pathos projecting format!

    The inter-webs.

  315. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “Though it would be absurd to assume brevity & Hemingway-esque constructions are always better.”

    I feel like such a nerd for actually knowing what you mean by that. :p

    I like Hemmingway. Did you know he participated in role reversal sexual games with the wife who eventually allowed him (consciously) access to the gun he shoved down his throat?

    Mike: “where did you get that Carlin did not see value in Atheism?”

    I’m not speaking to your intentions here, since you DID nearly make my head explode when you said that… But it was based on this;

    Mike: “He hated religion (I am an atheist, but he did not see real good there too)”

    I don’t mind the idea that I misunderstood you, but I’m used to you saying crazy things by now. :)

    Mike: “It is both an “ism” & a rejection of one.”

    Only amongst sad lonely people who probably DO need the comfort of religion. I’m a life long atheist, and I can assure you there aren’t weekly meetings. Atheism is an “ism” (in the conventional usage), only as an abstract label (which really isn’t it’s common usage).

    You hear religious people calling atheism a religion just like the rest, but that’s very clearly just an attempt by them to dismiss atheism by belittling the idea down to the level of their own.

    If you can find one connection between religion and atheism… Or between ANY “ism” and atheism, I’ll defer.

    I defy you to name one, that doesn’t require a GROSS misapplication of atheism, or a severe lack of knowledge for history (I.e. Hitler was an atheist).

  316. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah Hoss, thanks, I did not know about Hemingway’s particular perversions.

    I think one thing that happens is that you take mild statements as outrageous. We are BOTH cases where to instruct the other on atheism would be preaching to the (un)converted! It is just extreme & untenable to claim that great intellectual & moral philosophers have not come from the Church, been instrumental in social change, been a boon to family & charity…It would seem redundant to name Merton, St. Augustine, Gahndi, MLK, Rumi & the almost innumerable other folks 7 causes supported by “good religion.

    While you & I share a scientific based approach & realize how absurd it is to label something that uses a rational method that is testable a religion, it is a kind of fanaticism to think no good has come from those paradigms & individuals who are motivated by the highest possible human ideals & personal development.

    That there God is as real as the Flying Spaghetti Monster is irrelevant, really.

    Semantics is also important, though this is a small issue-I do think the “ism”/abstract label is its conventional usage. Still, I agree it is in a sense silly to not understand that it confines as if a narrow or particular ideology the simple lack of faith about a whole sphere of existence that is essentially unconfirmable. That is an artifact of what most are conditioned to believe, your implication that the default position should be that NOT believing in things not in evidence is what is “normal”.

    Though words mean particular things that evolve in specific cultural contexts, so we cannot realistically label believing with the “a” prefix, reversing the situation. But the words Theism & Deism are themselves fair in how specific they are that belief is not assumed as expected or the default setting!

    We can always find similarities & overlaps between unlike things, it depends upon what we are trying to prove, otherwise the similarities can be incidental &/or trivial. There are miserable bastards of every religion & none, same for great & highly evolved folks. What Hitler believed is as relevant as how he treated his dogs.

  317. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “It is just extreme & untenable to claim that great intellectual & moral philosophers have not come from the Church”

    I agree. That’s why I never said anything of the sort. I WOULD however say that any GOOD which has ever come from any “church” (or people belonging to a church), could have come from secular means, and the only intersection between theism and intellectualism, is a detour sign sending otherwise great thinkers down a road which kept them from realizing their true potential.

    Do you know anything about Newton? Kepler had developed his laws I planetary motion, but (since the dude was from like 700 years ago or some shit) wasn’t able to work out all the problems with his ellipses. Along comes newton, and his laws of general motion, introducing the (at the time) revolutionary idea of gravity… And specifically that although even a moron can recognize the manifestations of gravity regarding terrestrial situations, Newton “proved” that the same force was responsible for the movement of celestial bodies… Which fixed many of Keplers problems. Of course, we’re still talking about like five hundred years ago, so despite his having FUCKING INVENTED FUCKING CALCULUS to solve the problems, he simply wasn’t aboe to work out everything.

    So instead of continuing to work on the problem, he fell back on the great religious mantra of “god of the gaps”, and decided that everywhere he couldn’t figure some shit out, that was where “god done it”. So he decided that gods will was unknowable, and went on to do other shit. I’m choking on who actually fixed his error… But I’m thinking Edwin Hubble. Like four hundred years later.

    Because of the system of VOLUNTARY ignorance known as religion, science is (conservatively) HUNDREDS of years behind where it should be.

    Remember the crusades, where the MUSLIMS (of all people) had to secret away the knowledge of the world, so people acting under “instructions from god” wouldn’t shove us ALL THE WAY back into the dark ages.

    There is not ONE thing religion does which could not be accomplished through secular causes… And usually cheaper, more efficiently, and without an inherent sense of intellectual dishonesty.

    You still didn’t give a SINGLE example of what atheism shares with other “isms”, other than what defensive religious people have always said.

    No one would ever call the rejection of Bigfoot as a belief set. Neither the disbelief in aliens, or Geocentriam.

    A rejection of a belief is not a statement of beliefs, other than the one rejection inherent in the name. That is NOT an “ism”, any more than my dislike of tomatoes is an “ism”.

    I’m tired of religious people getting the right to define (fucking incorrectly) words however they want, even if the word they’re (re)defining has NOTHING to do with their beliefs, other than that they find them inconvenient.

    Can you name ONE thing atheism has in common with other “isms”?

    I agree hitlers views have nothing to do with the discussion… But he has just as much to do with it as does a religious persons bullshit “definition” of atheism (“without theism”. Fuck. Why is that so hard?).

  318. Raul Says:

    I’m not sure how flying spaghetti monster would answer that.

  319. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, well you must not have intended it, but understand that when you react this way after quoting me, it will be understood that you think nothing good comes from religion: “He hated religion (I am an atheist, but he did not see real good there too)”

    I don’t mind the idea that I misunderstood you, but I’m used to you saying crazy things by now. :)

    Now for where the balance of good & evil is, & whether it is incidental that it came from religion.

    I know that info about Newton, & you must be aware I am gonna agree with most all of the specific about how ignorant & repressive religion has been a nightmare for human freedom, development, life & happiness.

    But there was nothing else out there then-we would have been at least deists if we lived then. Not just from conditioning-there was no equally or more compelling explanation for how the whole universe came into being & who created, permitted & enabled laws of nature. The genuis to even conceive of what a Newton did then, with the fund of knowledge & experiences that ALL had access to, is almost incalculable. Pun intended.

    But he was on the very edge of what is possible, almost akin to the Very Nature of an expanding universe, creating space/time itself as it expands. So his esoteric & pseudo scientific pursuits could be more than forgiven, for then we did not have reason to know alchemy, astrology, genitalia being infused with life from the lungs was errant nonsense. No awareness of microscopic life, germ theory, modern physics, etc…

    Also, to reach a certain level of discovery, even the greatest ever need to stand on the shoulders of giants-& the cumulative knowledge of the most brilliant folks. Even if Einstein was much smarter than Stephen Hawking, & has been the greatest innovator in modern science, no way in hell he could develop a Grand unified Theory of everything by his death in the mid ’50’s. Not when approaching 60 years of science since has not unlocked it.

    While anything COULD have developed anything religion did (& tolerant, scientific minded religious folks could make scientific discoveries), the fact is that humans are creatures of passions & inspirations. Not only was it the ONLY all encompassing creation myth for most of human history, great philosophers built upon the works of others. Sometimes in the hard sciences too. A religion like Buddhism absent a creator actually developed a very sophisticated science of inner phenomena & the mind.

    The moral imperatives of “good religion, when it was not supporting or justifying absolute evil, advanced the labor, civil liberties, human rights, etc…of humanity in many times & places. Religion can be insane & fundamentalist, or a variety of mysticism that is tolerant & fully nurturing of love, wonder & all aspects of human developments. As is Sufism, certain variants of Christianity, & apparently what Orthodox Judaism started at over 300 years ago (read Elie Wiesel, “Sometimes A Master”.

    I was indicating that atheism does not share the cogent characteristics of an “ism” you indicated Hoss. The definitional issue, there is a lot of truth to what you say. Though it is also a gray area. Words mean what we define them as, & that also begs the question of whether the definitions are rational. I parsed that above, & while you are right about the absurdity, also we can argue that if something is the standard belief of a non-trivial matter like whether there is an omnipotent creator, it is not so bad to have a special word to refer to lack of faith in the usual. In terms of usefulness of having a term for such a central issue of whether there is a God or not, it has a lot of more & relevance than a lack of faith in say, tomatoes…

  320. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 318- LOL!

    @ 312- Amen Chuck to your entire post!

  321. Hossrex Says:

    Still no examples of a thing which religion provides, that secularism (which is definitely CLOSER to an “ism”) can’t. 

    Still no examples of ways atheism resembles other “isms”. 

    Still no explanation of why putting the prefix “A” before “theism” provides a different meaning than putting that same prefix in front of LITERALLY any other word. 

    The word theism, defined simply, means “a belief in a god, or gods”, and the word atheism means “a rejection of the belief in a god or gods”. 

    You’re allowing (by virtue of vernacular) theists to define “atheism” as they do (most often “the belief that no gods exist”), simply because that redefinition strengthens their position, and the change is subtle enough that most people wouldn’t notice the difference, but rest assured it IS different. 

    By allowing me the same privilege, I can quite justifiably say “theism is defined as;  a belief in the irrational”. That’s not what theism means…  But it’s a LOT fucking closer than how theist define atheism, and it sure makes my position SOUND better. 

    Should I be allowed to create a convenient definition for labels other people have chosen to adopt?

    If I tell you I’m a theist, you can justifiably make educated guesses about who I am, and how I live my life. If I tell you I’m an atheist, you know literally nothing about me, other than my rejection of one belief. 

    That isn’t an “ism”. 

    Atheism should only ever be capitalized when it begins a sentence.

  322. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “the reader also has a responsibility not to be a reflex monkey.”

    You realize that’s precisely what I mean when I say “don’t be a pussy”, right?

  323. Mike Felber Says:

    You meant Amen to to #313 Lefty, 312 was mine.

    Hoss, 323; yes, in a specific way, & I agreed. It cuts both ways. though the bigger sin is doing something with not only thoughtless but malign intent. Whether to hurt or humiliate a whole group or an individual. It is not OK to just blame the victim. And while I will not be hurt if someone victimizes me as an individual, Jew, white person atheist: it is still abuse. Being nasty & angry in general is not much better than personally attacking or a hating a whole group.

    Trying Ben & Jerry’s Schweddy Balls for the 1st time. They are quality! Let the jokes fly.

  324. Mike Felber Says:

    I already made clear that secular idea(l)s can provide, in therory, what religion can. And vice versa. Many religions & religious folks are heavily involved in science-the Dalia Lama participates in high level scientist conferences, read one about (the 18th annual i think) at MIT. And has a well known quote “If Buddhism & science conflict, Buddhism must give way”. Though a good deal of Eastern Philosophy has been confirmed by science, & books back to ‘75 The Tao of Physics show an uncanny resemblance of what master wisdom teachers believed & quantum physicists confirmed & detailed, while Buddha lived over 2,500 years ago. I am not saying they had the means to show & objectively prove the details.

    I have tried to detail the nuances of the valid semantic issues you raise. I did not indicate adding the “a” prefix is the same as a positive ideology (in terms of specific set of beliefs) put forward. But it is rational to choose to define something of big consequence, whether one believes in a whole separate spiritual realm or being, as a word. That is what the prefix correctly denotes!

    I am a confirmed & proud atheist Hoss. You have not shown me that the definition “the belief that God’s do not exist” is not 1) a fair definition, 2) that atheists generally have any objection to that, & 3)that this somehow strengthens their position. It defines correctly a simple binary.

    Can one make reasonable suppositions about how we or “they” live? beyond the definition itself, no! There will be statistical TENDENCIES, like atheists tend to be more liberal-but it is not nearly deterministic, I am & you are not. And theists can be wholly non-religious with any ideology whatsoever, Fundamentalist to Hedonist or nihilist even.

  325. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “the bigger sin is doing something with not only thoughtless but malign intent”

    That’s not the discussion though.

    The discussion is basically teasing, and I don’t think you’d be accurately describing much (if anything) which happens here as “malign”.

    That’s the trouble you get in when you start equating words to deeds. They aren’t. Calling someone stupid is hardly “malignant”, and going off the wild deep end here, and assuming someone here DID mean something with malice… That’s fucking pathetic, and the correct reaction (ESPECIALLY when online), is abject pity… Not towards the teasee, but towards the teaser.

    Why empower evil?

    I sustain that every person in the country should use the word “nigger” at least once per day. How much weight would the word carry if every grandmother and toddler said it as part of the normal usage?

    Why do you think the black culture latched onto it in the 70’s? To disempower the word. The problem was stupid people refused to let the word disappear, so they mistook the venture as one of culture, and all of a sudden only CERTAIN people were allowed to use it (once again), which of course acts like a big ass can of spinich to the word.

    Words have EXACTLY as much power as you let them have. I refuse to consciously empower evil.

    Why don’t you?

  326. Cameron Says:

    I was gone all day and wasn’t assed to read all the comments. Is Mike saying “Don’t say this to offend people” when he’s the only one bringing this shit up again? Can one of you guys just call him out on being an overly-sensitive pussy and get it over with? I had a day that was too awesome to bother myself with this shit.

  327. Mike Felber Says:

    You premise that i am empowering evil depends on accepting your very specific & sole mechanism that supposedly empowers evil. Your premise is wrong. Though it contains some truth, that is not the only way things acquire meaning or power.

    The discussion WAS in large part doing something with malign intent. I acknowledged your recently was not. I did not equate words with deeds. But there are certain overlaps: hateful speech has been shown to have similar effects on the brain as violence. People have different sensitivities, & it depends upon what is said, when, in what context, & how. Most anyone who had someone in their face, certainly if intimidating, yelling or even coldly reciting verbal abuse would be bothered by it.

    What is done online is a different but related animal. I made distinctions between how words are used, context, whether it seems belittling or profane. I do not ASSUME automatically, but it has happened here, by degrees, often enough.

    I do not think the correct response is pity. Opposing/confronting that small “e” evil not being personally threatened or abusive in (un)kind, & compassion that includes the abuser is the appropriate response.

    I respect your view about words like “nigger” but i do not think it is that simple. Words are not so easily divested of all pain & historical meaning, even with daily training. And while it is true that SOME latched upon the word then & today to disempower it, sometimes subconsciously, also to effect bonding. But it also has been shown to be used disparagingly towards other blacks, as a WEAPON: the self hate that racism causes does not so easily evaporate.

    It is completely reasonable to have a social opprobrium around those not of a group using a word historically, & often still, associated with great hate, harm & violence. If we did NOT call & condemn, sometimes ostracize, real racists from civil discourse, there would be both more bigotry/hate, & more harm.

  328. Mike Felber Says:

    That would not work out well Cameron, for the name caller or the general level of discourse & civil relations. I politely suggest you either read all the comments so you have an idea of just what is being said, & if YOU want to be verbally abusive, say it to my (remotely by the Internet) face.

    Or ignore it. It is not wise to be annoyed by something that you do not bother to read & understand the subtleties of, & tell OTHERS to say something nasty. Would not that be what others call “being a pussy”?

    If my only interlocutor here, Hoss, is not pissed at a different opinion, why must you be without even checking how others feel nor what is actually said?

  329. Raul Says:

    We’re used to shitty opinions here as John and Shaun were quite well aware of.

    For all my time on the internet, I freely admit I’ve not seen quite the douchebaggery that requires one to say “If my only interlocuter…” when simply saying “If Hoss is not pissed…” would have sufficed.

  330. Hossrex Says:

    I’m not wrong that words have no more power than we grant them.

    Where the hell else could their power come from?

  331. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, that kind of hostility is what I am talking about. You are being profane, insulting me as if it was ME who is abusive, just fo0r using a phrase that-what sounds too fancy for you? To quote McEnroe, “You cannot be serious”!

    I used 4 words, one “fancy, while YOU want to dictate I use 5 specific words. Or presumably something that does not make you think of a nerd, pocket protectors, pretension, or whatever other false sterotypes that have no relation to who I am or even how i appear.

    Yet somehow I do not find it necessary to say you are acting like or being a douchebag, though you are the only one out of line.

    Just admit what is obvious: it is a vestigal & anger management personal issue & bullying impulse that has you upset that i used a fancy word.

    You should no better, but I must make explicit: not liking a word YOU are triggered to find precious that has no intrinsic flaw or negativity associated with it is your own problem.

    Let’s have some tolerance & non-Neanterthalic (sic, very) reactionary opinions, OK?

    Maybe you would be happy if I just said eff you, jerk off. But I do not feel that way, nor want to contribute to that primitive disdain & resentment.

  332. Mike Felber Says:

    Words have power based upon conscious & unconscious (not granted but there) reactions. I think there is a lot correct about what you are saying Hoss. But also that we cannot control all of how we or others react, & we are responsible for not only our intent, but having SOME care of how others will feel. Especially groups & folks who have been hurt & tangibly suffer much with those words. So adolescents & males constantly using “bitch” & “fag” is not good, & used in anger at those who are girls or gay worse.

    That is not saying that something like campus speech (or sexual code of conduct/get explicit permission for every move you make codes are anything but a PC travesty. Not everything bad should be formally regulated. But much sensitivity to harm & self monitoring is just being humane.

  333. Cameron Says:

    Huh, I realized I know two people who own World Series rings. 1964 Cardinal Ray Sadecki, and a scout with the Tigers.

  334. John Says:

    What the shit…

    Ya, I’m not reading all that. Fairly sure there’s no baseball in the previous 15 posts.

    Anyway, the combined salaries of the Giants rotation will be 4 million dollars more than the rest of the NL West rotations combined.

    Also saw that the Mets 3 highest paid outfielders next season will be Jason Bay, Andres Torres…and Bobby Bonilla.

  335. Cameron Says:

    Yeah John, but even with the hits it’s taken, that roation also has roughly the combined talent of the rest of the NL West’s rotations. I mean, let’s look at San Fran…


    And the best five in the rest of the division.

    Uh… Chacin?

    …That’s about it. Maybe if De La Rosa is healthy there’s competition for that last spot, but there’s like, three guys in the division that could walk into San Fran and not compete for a roster spot.

  336. Hossrex Says:


    Mike;  you didn’t explain how words have more power than we prescribe…  You explained how OTHER people prescribe varying amounts of power to words, and by extension proved my entire point. 

    This is why I didn’t say “I use the word nigger everyday because I don’t want to empower words”, but instead (somewhat facetiously) “everyone should be required to say the word nigger everyday”.

    I’m not so stupid as to believe that my actions will change the world (I’m not 15), but in an academic sense, if EVERYONE were to participate, the “word” would lose all power. 

    Since (again) I’m not 15, the best supposition would be to change MY actions, explain to others why I’ve changed my actions (I.e. what I’m doing now), and hope that in a couple hundred years I’ve created a successful meme which has wormed its way into the social consciousness, and the world is (anonymously) a better place because of me. 

    This is how adults (who don’t think they’re in a movie) change the world. 

    Unlike a significant number of liberals, I neither desire “credit” for my actions, nor expect the change to happen while I’m observing. 

    As a side note…  Regarding language, brevity, and the most efficient method for communicating ideas…  Notice how often YOU take exception with MY phrasing (not because you find it offensive, but because you feel OTHERS will find it offensive…  Like all liberals you never find anything offensive, but you’re always condescendingly afraid other, stupider, people will) compared to how often people find offense with yours. 

    What does it tell you that, while we share very similar vocabularies, my phrasing far less frequently finds derision?

    How does that make you feel?

  337. Cameron Says:

    Hoss, for the record, I’m one of the most liberal guys I know. If someone takes offense to a word, fuck ‘em. Yeah I’m not the kind of guy who will call a black man a nigger in a black neighborhood (then again, I grew up in one, saw the results firsthand), but if some off-color comment someone’s panties in a bunch, that’s their issue, not mine. I have a freedom to express myself through my speech and I’m sure as fuck gonna exercise it.

  338. Lefty33 Says:

    “You meant Amen to to #313 Lefty, 312 was mine.”

    It was Mike?

    “312. Chuck Says”

  339. Bob Says:

    The Dodgers have at least one bid of $1.5 billion. The finalists
    1. Earvin “Magic” Johnson and his group. I am rooting for him to prevail.
    2. Joe Torre and his group
    3. Steven Cohn ( Hedge Fund)
    4. Rick Caruso ( Developer)

  340. Raul Says:

    Exactly why would Magic Johnson be a good baseball owner?

  341. Bob Says:

    Baseball not withstanding, He worked for Jerry Buss for years. He has tons of ownership/management experience with his Magic Johnson enterprisesthat is worth over $700 million. He has legit ties to LA, and he could motivate the fanbase more than Torre, Caruso and Cohn more rapidly than the other suitors.
    Secondly, he has ties to Michigan ( State)

  342. Bob Says:

    Raul, let me reverse the question?
    1. Why would Torre be superior to Johnson in LA?
    2. Why would Cohn be superior to Johnson in LA?
    3. Why would Caruso be superior to Johnson in LA?
    4. The above questions assumes finances are not an issue.

  343. Bob Says:

    @340. Moreover, Stan Kasten is part of the Johnson team.

  344. Raul Says:

    Winning motivates fans.

    Not Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan being a part owner.

    I think people want Magic to get the team for no other reason than people actually know who Magic Johnson is.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if he got the team, they still sucked, and Magic was pocketing 20 million a year.

  345. Bob Says:

    Magic has won.
    In college.
    In the pros.
    In the Olympics.
    I expect this to be no different.
    Magic cares about LA, and probably California at large. The perfect owner now that Cuban is out.
    Who do you want to see purchase the Dodgers?

  346. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, Raul. Magic isn’t a businessman like a bunch of other ballclub owners. I don’t think the guy worries about having baseball be his turnkey and he’d actuallly give a shit about the club. Torre’s a ballplayer, but not worth as much as Johnson, so he could be like Magic but not have the same kind of money to throw around. Other two guys are a real estate developer and a hedge fund manager, business guys.

    Johnson provides the most money with the least amount of bullshit.

  347. Bob Says:

    1. John Maine signed with the Red Sox.
    2. The agent for Oswalt said no way is he going to the bullpen.
    3. Weekends were made for Michelob!!!

  348. Cameron Says:

    I heard that Oswalt’s talking to the Cards. Strange move, but hell, if he can go, let him.

  349. Lefty33 Says:

    ESPN Boston is reporting that Oswalt is as good as signed in St. Louis with only the physical remaining.

    His deal is 100% based on his wish to only pitch in the NL as he turned down more lucrative offers from Boston, Detroit, and Texas.

    The same report also said that Boston will now look to make a trade for Gavin Floyd in lieu of Oswalt.

    Boston is also bringing in Vincente Padilla, Aaron Cook, and Carlos Silva into ST to compete for a rotation/long relief job.

  350. Chuck Says:

    A source with told me this morning the same thing, that Oswalt is a lock for the Cardinals, and also said if the Red Sox lose out on Oswalt they will focus their attention on Edwin Jackson.

  351. Chuck Says:

    The same source told me there is a 100% chance Ryan Braun will lose his appeal.

    He said when Braun was at the MLB offices explaining his case with his Twilight Zone story of taking the drug for an STD that MLB asked him for his medical records and to submit to an independent, MLB supervised physical, Braun refused.

    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

  352. Mike Felber Says:

    Lefty, you referenced my post #312 & used Chuck’s name & said you agreed with the entire post. If you meant that you disagreed with what i said about what Chuck said, fine. Though it seemed like you were referencing one of his posts.

    Cam, you have a very unusual pattern., You talk very tough-you did not used to, you have absorbed the zeitgeist here-but not directly to i8ndividuals, are not abusive. You can say “fuck ‘em” if they take offense, because you neither use these terms directly to folks, out of not just preservation but that you seem to have no bias. If you were viewed with disdain or aggressively confronted due to being perceived as a hater, you might feel differently.

    Hoss: when you start making unqualified statements about liberals or all liberals, you lose credibility & become somewhat self parodying. Yup, liberals who do this also are. Let me clarify:

    I said I am not, or rarely, personally emotionally upset/wounded by hateful language. Whether directed at me or a group. Offended? Sure, a reasonable definition of this is a distaste & moral revulsion. At, say, hate against a certain group, & to a degree using insults that communicate derision attached to a group, even if not specifically referencing that group. Like bitch & faggot.

    Nice try for a psychological edge, asking how it makes me feel. I do not feel badly at ALL. It is because of the particular subculture that tends to be dominant here, a very small pool now, that admittedly is dominant in many of the lowest, most abusive, & often anonymous forums. Though there is little racism evident here, this toxic contempt & fake tough guy posturing is common amongst those haters.

    Even though the Interwebs (sic) enables this, it is only the norm in some forums. Overwhelmingly not the more intelligent ones.

    You have a very particular idea of how adults should change the world-yours is one. I have explained at length how this will just not do it, even in the aggregate. You & Cam & others do NOT use words like Nigger here & often in your personal life: you would not want to be hated & hurt by those, especially black who do not like it. Nor would you be willing to deal with the social opprobrium of spouting it all the time (which you would if it was so important to you). You would cause more hate & division than you could possibly hope to defuse by contributing a homeopathic amount to desensitization in the long term.

    Though your hear would be in the right place, it would not work.

    It becomes puerile to make vast generalizations about the enemy, unqualified, that reflect tribal alliances & ignorance. THAT is harming the body politic & solving problems & mutual healthy relations & respect. If you wanna say “there is a tendency of liberals/conservatives to have this trait”…That is different. Here, i will do one for you.

    While liberals are generally excellent at caring about how others feel & empathizing with others & avoiding prejudice, they seem as prone to hating & demonizing one despised “other”: those who disagree with them ideologically. This is a tendency of ALL sides, but combining the statements above shows a hypocrisy liberals are particularly prone to. You could say the same about Fundamentalist Christians that are supposed to take the message of Love, humility, service to the poor to heart.

    But to say that liberals are the ones who must take specific credit for the good they do: that is ridiculous. There is no evidence that we are worse this way: there are blowhards & hypocrites & those doing good quietly from all paradigms.

    To tie a couple of things together: you have assumed, not the 1st one here, a stereotypical arrogance with me that is just not true. It is not me, NOR usually liberals, who feel only others will not like bad language & bad faith words, & be too stupid to see through it.

    1) Words often ARE motivated by personal animus & sometimes group bias like homophobia. This dynamic used to relentlessly demean others, OR just the general tone of derision & cruelty, have driven multiple folks away from here, by their own accounts. Brautigan is an example of the latter, & he is not only older but by all indications quite mature. And he was not even personally attacked.

    That your harmless intent calling John some variant of so stupid did not cause this-good. It just happened to work out for the reasons I described. It is not a popularity contest-on many even baseball forums, like the links I have been leaving, vicious language would make you an outcast. We know that what is popular being good 7 right is a basic fallacy.

    But something like, to take an extreme case, me using a (shorter, ironically) phrase that includes the word interlocutor being labeled douchebag conduct (post 330) is an extreme example of the idiocracy mentality. Where personally abusive words are OK, but a “fancy” one (the kind you are also prone to use), is considered somehow a personal affront! Intolerance personified.

    Only doing what you propose-& adding the selective breeding favoring stupidity-will lead more to this “why come you don’t have a tattoo” future.

    “There’s that fag talk we talked about again”.

  353. Chuck Says:

    “OK, platform of nothingness must have been a joke, not a commentary on what i have said that could relate to a platform”

    No, it wasn’t a joke. No one talks more and says less than you do.

    “Though i do not think it is true that you do not even care about the site! That you recently said you hoped was here when you returned.”

    I have a file four inches thick with stuff from the Fall League, and everytime I sit down to write something, I invariably end up with “fuck it.”

    That’s what I meant by not caring.

    “What happened with that job prospect anyway, anything yet?”

    It went fine. I will work during spring training as a member of the Stadium Ops team (where my friend works and who is responsible for the gig). Nothing at all to do with on field stuff. The job is contingent on my job search for something full time and with the caveat there is no scheduling conflict.

    “Though please consider that it might seem this way because i must often clarify what i write: even when it is both explicit & I use “simple” sentences.”

    Newsflash genius: THAT was a condescending statement.

    Did you ever notice when the subject turns to OWS or Hemingway or other off-beat topics, Mike is here all the time with his 500 word comments, but when we’re actually talking baseball, he’s no where to be found?

  354. Chuck Says:

    “I like Hemmingway. Did you know he participated in role reversal sexual games with the wife who eventually allowed him (consciously) access to the gun he shoved down his throat?”

    And that was a good day.

  355. Cameron Says:

    Mike, I don’t hate, but I also think your constant concerns over offensive language here are a bit unwarranted. Without fail, you’re the only guy here who ever brings it up. Some guys may bring up counterpoints, but you’re the only one that seems to worry someone may get hurt. You ever think maybe you might just wanna drop it and let people talk how they wanna talk? No one else seems to give two fucks about the language here but the hypothetical people you constantly bring up. If we ever get confronted by someone who lurks that’s offended, then maybe there might be some merit. As it stands though, the only one, without goddamn fail, to bring any attention to the language is you.

    If you just want us to clean up our language, then say it and don’t behind the guise of common decency or whatever it is. Just say what’s on your mind. If you really don’t care, then shut the fuck up, man. This is getting old and you’re the only one on your side of the argument. Here’s a tip, if it’s you against the world in a debate, you’re usually on the wrong side.

  356. Chuck Says:

    If you’re offended by language on a website, it’s time to find another website.

    Crossing the language barrier was the reason FJM survived as long as it did.

    That, and a few thousand idiots who thought it was a real site.

  357. John Says:

    That, and broadcasters and journalists kept saying stupid, uneducated shit.

    Chuck probably sees FJM shutting down as evidence of the end of sabermetrics.

  358. Cameron Says:

    FJM was more a “look at what this jackass said” site than a saber site.

  359. Mike Felber Says:

    Cameron, I am behind no guise, if you have not no0ticed I want the language cleaned up at least when directed at those they disagree with, or using sexist/homophobic terms, you have not been paying attention.

    It is extremely basic that what is popular has no logical correlation with what is right. But you are wrong again that i am the only one who feels this way. And again this shows you have not being paying close attention. I cited Brautigan as one of many examples. John Q. is another. Others have been dismayed & left & never been able to be asked, but they DID express frustration, personal animus, & disappeared. Often after having been hated on & mocked. You know some of the names. You talk aqbout only hypothetical folks because: you have not been paying attention.

    And no Chuck, me pointing out someone is wrong non-abusively is not “condescending”. You need to check your presumptions. Me saying dispassionately I am being level when I correct clear & simple statements that i repeatedly make about what I believe? That is not REMOTELY condescending. It is a pure statement of fact.

    Don’t tell me again to look for another site. I do post about baseball elsewhere-mainly, used to be,& would like to reinvigorate things here. There is a difference between being profane about a single point & guy, like FJM, & doing so 1) towards those who differ with you in comments, & 2) degrading that person, often by using a homophobic or sexist term.

    I have written many very long comments about baseball, & you know that. You also should be aware that some things like draft/prospects & homerism has little interest for me, so I just read or skim.

  360. Mike Felber Says:

    Well congratulation on getting that flexible gig in the field you love Chuck, even if not perfect for you! They must like you to offer said accomodations.

    So by not caring you meant your personal motivation here. Gotchya man.

  361. Hossrex Says:

    Shit piss cunt fuck cocksucker motherfucker tits.

    Sad (so sad) to see Cuban out of the bidding. Not sure how I feel about Magic… I don’t even care enough about basketball to say I dislike it. So long as basketball doesn’t bother Hoss, Hoss doesn’t bother basketball (notice my gripes about being a homer, and not being able to find a football team… My “local” basketball franchise is one of the BIGGEST legacy teams in all of sports. Even with my distaste for bandwagoning, in my opinion I would be justified in “liking” the Lakers, and wearing the jersey, and interjecting my sense of self-esteem into the success of the franchise. I could follow a winner during all those LONG years where my Dodgers suck. But I can’t, because the way NBA basketball is played simply isn’t interesting to watch).

    I guess the parenthetical part of a paragraph shouldn’t be three times as long as the main point. My bad.

    Good luck with the job in Arizona Chuck. While you’re having fun “working”, keep in mind the dozen or so regulars here would all let you have sex with our wives/girlfriends to switch places with you.

  362. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “me pointing out someone is wrong non-abusively is not “condescending””

    Don’t get me wrong Mike. I like you. Honesty. But it’s not WHAT you say, it’s how you say it. I have the same problem, which is why it’s a running joke amongst my friends about how many websites from which I’ve been banned (twice from one Star Trek message board that updated its servers and reset ban info, and twice from a star wars Lego message board, because they had a system crash, and had to reset to a place before my ban was in effect. Both times I was allowed back in, only to be banned again shortly thereafter… And then dozens and dozens of times just once… And forever. Hell, I even got an email from Adam here who told me… Very nicely… To calm the fuck down).

    I never MEAN to upset anyone. I never INTEND to make people dislike me… But people are stupid… I mean… Tone matters.

    Perception is reality, and it doesn’t matter nearly as much how something was meant as does how it’s received.

    You tell me that all the time, so I know you understand.

    I’m not telling you to stop. Chucks a crotchety old asshole who hates everyone… But if you’re not wiling to compromise, you gotta get used to people disliking you.

    I dislike everyone, so I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks about me… But ya gotta at least be aware of WHY.

  363. Cameron Says:

    You have two hometown basketball teams, Hoss. Too bad the Clippers are the bandwagon team in LA now. You wanna be a bandwagon Clips fan or the jackass Lakers fan? Tough call.

  364. Hossrex Says:

    Cameron: “jackass lakers fan”

    A not insignificant part of the equation, I admit.

    I’d always figured it’d be more likely that I be a clippers fan, since they suck, and I hate bandwagoners… But that always felt more like being an Angels fan… And… Ewwwwww.

    Pretty funny that I’m in the L.A. sports radius (central Cali… So we actually get overlap with the San Fran sports scene also), and I had ZERO IDEA the clippers didn’t suck anymore.

  365. Cameron Says:

    Two words Hoss, Chris Paul. Dude turned that team into a playoff contender overnight. They pretty much a Paul-to-Griffin pick n’ roll all day and no one can stop it.

  366. Kerry Says:

    Well, the Cardinals are denying that a deal for Oswalt is in the works, so that must mean it will be announced within a day or so…

    If they do sign him, Westbrook will become an expensive long-relief guy, unless they can unload him (and he agrees; he has a no-trade clause).

  367. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 352- Post #312 in this thread is Chuck’s.

    You wrote #310 & #311 and Chuck wrote #312 followed by Raul @ #313, etc.

    I was agreeing with what Chuck wrote in #312 against you because it is all factual and at no time did I ever reference anything YOU said anywhere.

    Read the sequence of posts idiot.

  368. Hossrex Says:

    I think the only people I legitimately DISLIKED here were Dennis (or as he’d type it “djeejxiwjekdueg”), and maybe Shaun.

    Oh… And I guess Jimmy Scott, but that guy was always worth a good laugh at his expense, so… I wish he’d come back.

  369. Chuck Says:

    So, no one thinks I’ve grown as a member of this site?

    “Chucks a crotchety old asshole who hates everyone..”

    Three years ago, I’d be on the first flight out and tracked you down like a dog, or had a brief conversation with my Uncle Scarface who happens to owe me a favor.

    Now, I just laugh and shake my head.

    Realizing of course, you’re right.

  370. Chuck Says:

    “I think the only people I legitimately DISLIKED here…”

    There was this young kid right at the beginning of the site who said his father worked for the Angels and would argue everything everyone said here. You are singularly responsible for him disappearing.

  371. Hossrex Says:

    I just wrote a kinda long post, then my iPod crashed (“it just works” my ass).

    I said some nice things about chuck, and asked who the kid was. I don’t remember that.

  372. Mike Felber Says:

    I think you have grown Chuck. Sometimes 2 steps forward & one step back, but you have shown more restraint & sometimes outright grace.

    Wish I could say the same about you Lefty. My system always has shown my post to be 312, Chucks 313…Whatever reason they are different, I read them well, & why even bother to call me an idiot? I did not even disagree with your point, I just thought you made an error. Sad to be so nasty, gratuitously.

    Hoss, as so often, interesting thoughts. You have cojones to admit flaws like all those bannings-you did not need to. I admire that.

    It comes Full Circle. Of course tone matters. Intent is primary, but it goes back to me saying you would not use the n word if you were felt to be a racist monster. I spoke about what is undeniable, the times when name calling is motivated by hate or anger management problems. Sure i also must care about how what i say is received.

    But within reason. If I just report how I am described as condescending MERELY due to showing how the substance of what i say is ignored & I am stereotyped: it is not for The Good for me to shut uppa my face about just clinically speaking the truth due to a totally bleeped up interpretation.

    You do not dislike everyone, you said otherwise about me, thanks. And you have seldom shown real meanness. So I should & will consider tone, though of course the irony is double-down savory that what i have been decrying is bad intent & exponentially worse tone.

    Though if others can be so humble & circumspect, lately, I can take care to wrap things up similarly. But please understand that pointing out mistakes in the very basics of what I communicate is not at all arrogant.

    And fun aside, you know it is not that i get “the vapors” about bad words themselves. It is how they are leveraged against folks, & the effect they have. I have seen plenty of bitterness & division in numerous forums, online to in person, that were avoidable with a modicum of mutual respect.

    Anyone else do meetups? I have joined mainly art, Tantra, & networking ones. After art events, went tonight to a multi-meetup group party. For the girl prospects, 2 are promising leads. Leader & birthday boy did a mean rendition of Roadhouse Blues.

  373. Hossrex Says:

    Mike: “You have cojones to admit flaws like all those bannings-you did not need to. I admire that.”

    But that speaks to my earlier point. Why would I give a fuck what any of you think of me? As far as the impact on my life, you might as well be digital constructs of a sophisticated computer system. I don’t “debate” because I need everyone to understand how awesome I am, I do it because I like believing as many true things as possible, while disbelieving as many untrue things as possible… And it’s fun.

    Mike: “you would not use the n word if you were felt to be a racist monster”

    No. I would NOT use the word nigger if a large black man with gang tattoos was standing next to me, because I’m fond of my body in its current configuration. The opinion of a person, or group of people, who judge a person based on their usage of certain small mouth noises is pretty low on my list of concerns.

    Mike: “the times when name calling is motivated by hate or anger management problems.”

    That’s a problem because it would lead to violence, not because I’m worried what a troglodyte might think.

    Mike: “But within reason. If I just report how I am described as condescending MERELY due to showing how the substance of what i say is ignored & I am stereotyped: it is not for The Good for me to shut uppa my face about just clinically speaking the truth due to a totally bleeped up interpretation.”

    That entire equation has a HUGE variable hanging out the leg of its shorts in the phrase “within reason”. Who’s reason? Under what circumstances?

    I would agree with what you said, but only because if you allow the “within reason” clause, and then fail to give ANY effort to defining “reason”… You’ve just simultaneously given carte blanch for yourself to do ANYTHING, while at the same time allowing yourself to pass judgment on anyone for anything at anytime.

    Mike: “You do not dislike everyone”

    I was “attempting” humorous hyperbolic irony by starting the comment saying I liked someone, and then finishing it by saying I hate everyone. It may not have been funny, but it was intentional.

    For the record though, I do like you, and while I disagree with you MOST of the time… That’s what make our particular relationship fun.

    Mike: “And fun aside, you know it is not that i get “the vapors” about bad words themselves. It is how they are leveraged against folks, & the effect they have.”

    Yes. Exactly. “The effect they have”. Since we’re communicating (relatively) anonymously through a non-physical medium, THERE CAN BE NO EFFECT, and thus (just about) anything is fine… Ya know… Since there really can be NO effect.

    Mike: “Anyone else do meetups?”

    True story (I swear). I was like 18, fat, and lonely, with an Internet connection, so of course I used it as an opportunity to talk to girls who neither knew I was either fat nor lonely. Fun times. I’m intelligent, so online I’m ridiculously “attractive” to women (this was a couple years before even the Ex-Rex, and if I’d lost my virginity yet, it was a recent change). So I was a little flirty with a lot of girls (pathetic, I know… I was a horny kid), and one of the many was a bit clingy (fucking online this bitch was clingy). So I’m working at a comic book store at the time, and brutal honesty online has always been a fault, so of course the bitch knew where I lived (the city, not like my fucking address or anything) and where I worked.

    While she was on the central coast one time, she made it a point to stop in and see me… Without any notice. Fucking awkward. Creepy weird stalker shit. Later on… Since I was stupid enough to give the bitch my home number, she would like call and talk to my mother (totally fucking serious). My mother would literally confront me about the crazy shit this online bitch would tell her about the shit we’d talk about.

    So… No… I don’t do “meet ups”.

    I’d be tempted to get a beer with any of you guys… But I can’t picture it turning out any way other than “awkward and stalkerish”.

    Although I admit that’s my failIng for being unable to compartmentalize the difference between “crazy bitch online”, and “crazy bro online”.

  374. Chuck Says:

    “But I can’t picture it turning out any way other than “awkward and stalkerish”.”

    Count me as offended.

  375. Chuck Says:

    This is for you, Hoss.

    I was at a SABR breakfast meeting yesterday and one of our local members is Barry Bloom, who’s a lifetime BBWAA member and writes for

    His World Series prediction this year is the Yankees and…………..

    ……….the Dodgers.

    When he said it, we all kind of looked at each other with glazed eyes, but after he explained his reasons why, he had convinced half the room to pick them too.

    The Dodgers have $1.4 billion dollars in the bank they can’t spend until the team is sold.

    That’s the estimated value of their new TV deal.

    This is the Dodger’s money, it doesn’t belong to MLB or McCourt, so when the franchise sells the only cash McCourt can touch is the proceeds from the sale of the team, the ballpark, the parking lots, etc.

    As soon as the ink dries on the sale papers, which he said will be by May first, the Dodgers will suddenly have this massive influx of cash to spend, and they will systematically start unloading players (Loney, Ethier, etc) and replacing them with guys whose production justifies their paychecks.

    Bloom said if you look at the Dodgers roster today and again a year from today, there will be at minimum a 50% turnover.

    And with the Dodgers having money, and essentially the same amount as the Angels, playing there again will be considered an “in” spot for potential free agents.

  376. Raul Says:

    The Dodgers need a new stadium. Unfortunately, they have no where to put it.

  377. John Says:

    @375, that doesn’t exactly mean anything for 2012. Maybe beyond – the Dodgers might be considered front runners to land Greinke, Votto, etc when they hit free agency but this year? They’re pretty much stuck with what they’ve got.

    They could maybe get started by replacing their GM.

  378. Chuck Says:

    “that doesn’t exactly mean anything for 2012.”

    Not in free agency, but if you read the comment you’d see I was talking more about trades first.

    You don’t think the Dodgers would be at the top of the bidding list for Hanley if the 3B experiment bombs in Florida?

    If the Marlins said today they want Hanley traded by ST, not only would the Dodgers not be in the conversation, they couldn’t answer the phone.

  379. John Says:

    That’s reasonable. But I think there’s a lot more improvement that needs to be made than can adequately be solved by bad fits.

    Off the top of my head…Jake Westbrook? If the Cards end up landing Oswalt, the Dodgers could probably land him for cheap.

    Maybe they’d want to grab one of the plethora of 4/5 guys competing for a spot in the Bronx.

    They could probably buy Brandon McCarthy or Dallas Braden from Oakland. Not sure the A’s are gonna care if they win 58 or 62 games this year.

    Here’s one…the Angels have something of a logjam in their outfield with Trout hitting the show – perhaps make a play for Peter Bourjos?

    Maybe there are options, we’ll see.

  380. Bob Says:

    1. Patriots 28
    2. Giants 24

  381. Chuck Says:




    The Giants are going to wipe the floor with them.

    I can see the Giants scoring 24 points, however.

    In the first half.

  382. John Says:

    The Patriots have had a fine season, but their strength of schedule was a joke.

    Last weekend was the first time that they beat a winning team all year long. Their first playoff win came against the 8-8 Tebows and they barely edged the Ravens on a dropped pass in the end zone and a botched field goal.

    I like the Giants chances. Those receivers are going to run circles around that secondary.

  383. Cameron Says:

    Please, if the Ravens D can’t stop the Pats, the Giants are gonna be sweating. There’s no good safeties and that secondary ain’t great either, both teams. It’ll come down to the front and New England has quite possibly the best O-line in the league. Brady’s gonna have plenty of time to sit in the pocket and fire against them. It’ll be a shootout, and trying to beat Tom Brady in a shootout is a death sentence.

  384. Cameron Says:

    @376 What about the LA Coliseum that LA’s trying to get a football team into? Couldn’t they turn that into a multipurpose stadium?

  385. John Says:

    “Please, if the Ravens D can’t stop the Pats, the Giants are gonna be sweating. ”

    The Ravens D did stop the Pats, I would say. Unfortunately, Ray Lewis can’t kick field goals.

  386. Cameron Says:

    They slowed ‘em down, they couldn’t shut ‘em down. Big difference. Even if it went into overtime I still would’ve been calling New England.

  387. Raul Says:

    I did read about the team possibly building a stadium downtown near the Staples Center, but you can bet that thing would be Yankee Stadium East. No way that thing gets built for under 1 billion. And there would have to be hundreds of millions of dollars invested in nearby areas.

    Yankee Stadium has one significant advantage though…public transportation makes it very easy to get there now. The transit system in LA is horrible. So to get people in and out for 81 games…well…it would take a hell of a job by city planners/architects/whatever…

  388. Cameron Says:

    Again, I advocate multi-purposing the LA Coliseum. 93K+ seat stadium in LA? It’d be easy to pull good ticket revenue there. You could only probably use about 60 or so for baseball, but it’d still be one of the biggest stadiums in the biggest cities in the country. If they wanna increase ticket revenue, increase the amount of tickets you can sell.

  389. Bob Says:

    Mike, I also have post 312 as Chuck’s. He was quoting you as a segue to another point. I also have Raul as post 313.

  390. Hossrex Says:


    Are you also suggesting we bring back Wally Moon?

    Did you happen to see the exhibition game a few years ago, where the Dodgers played a game in the collosseum? It was a joke. You’d have to make significant structural changes to actually play 81 real games there… And that still doesn’t address the needs of the dodgers. Dodger Stadium is an amazing ball park. Beautiful, and stunning, and as close spiritual as anything can be for me.

    It’s only tangible flaw is that it doesn’t include a shopping mall, amusement park, museum of tolerance… Or any other distractions which bring in the stupid people.

    The dodgers “need” to build the Mall of America, not find a new place to paint foul lines.

    I vehemently disagree (for reasons which are ENTIRELY sentimental), but I can see how it could help the team.

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