Fourth Annual Dugout Central Challenge

by KerryWhisnant

Who are the best teams? Who are the worst teams? And just how good or bad are they?  Dugout Central writers and readers are again challenged to predict the number of wins in the regular season for each of the thirty major league baseball teams in the Third Annual Dugout Central Challenge.

It requires an in-depth knowledge of all thirty teams to accurately predict the number of wins for every team – a lot more than for picking division winners and wild card teams for each league. Relative strengths within the division, within the league and between leagues also come into play. Strength of schedule is another factor. And key injuries can upset even the best predictions.

Same as last year, there will be two contests in 2012, one using the average win difference (AWD) and the other using root mean square difference (RMSD) between the predictions and the actual win totals at the end of the regular season, including any tie-breaker games.

For example, if you predict that the Yankees will win 98 and the Red Sox 94, but it turns out to be 93 and 96, respectively, you are off by a total of 7 games for those two teams (5 for New York and 2 for Boston), and the AWD is 3.50. The RMSD would be the square root of (25 + 4)/2 = 14.5, or about 3.81. The average win dfference does not penalize picks that are far off the mark as much as RMSD does.

Any unplayed games will be assigned wins according to the team’s winning percentage. For example, a team is 96-64 and doesn’t make up two games. They have a winning percentage of .600, and so those two make-up games will be worth 1.2 wins, for a total of 97.2. Tie-break games will count — the final winning percentage will be prorated to 162 games. Hence, in 2009 the Twins (87-76) were rated at 86.47 wins and the Tigers (86-77) at 85.47 wins.

John Bowen and Chuck Johnson tied for the AWD title in last year’s Third Annual Dugout Central Challenge, while Patrick Greco and I tied for third. In the RMSD version of the Challenge, Chuck was first and I nipped John for second place.

If the number of entrants gets too large, I may cap the number of entries at some point, but I don’t anticipate that happening. Entries must be submitted by 6 PM CDT, Wednesday, April 4, to . Once you submit an entry, you may change it before the deadline if there is a significant injury or roster change that affects your prediction — or even if you just have second thoughts. [You can wait for the results of the two opening games in Japan, if that will help at all.]

This will not be an empty exercise, to be forgotten once the season starts. Updates will be provided periodically throughout the year using winning percentages, and contest entrants will be held accountable at the end of the season. So there’s nowhere to hide, and may the best prognosticator win!

Recent Posts

529 Responses to “Fourth Annual Dugout Central Challenge”

  1. Chuck Says:

    Thanks again as always, Kerry.

    Much appreciated.

  2. Jim Says:

    Saw a note in yesterday’s NY Times that the Yanks have some concern with Michael Pineda’s loss of velocity since the ST 2011.

    The Nats sent Bryce Harper down. To refine his sneer I guess.

  3. Chuck Says:

    Pineda hit 98 in his last start.

  4. Cameron Says:

    So… How pissed is Tim Tebow right now?

  5. Jim Says:

    It wasn’t in his hands Cam.

  6. Bob Says:

    @2 Or to delay his clock.

  7. Cameron Says:

    Doesn’t change the fact his boss did a complete 180 from “He took us to the playoffs, he’s our guy,” to “Pack your shit and get out.”

    And Bob, I know the arb clock got some work done on it in the new CBA, but I’m not quite sure how much. I honestly don’t know if Super Twos still exist.

  8. Jim Says:

    The news article that I saw on Harper said the Nats’ want him to get playing time as a CF.

    Yes, Tebow was thrown under the bus, but given the questions as to whether or not he’s an NFL quarterback, the Broncos had little choice but to pursue Manning. Even if Tebow does prove to be a decent pro QB, he won’t be Peyton Manning.

  9. Raul Says:

    Miguel Cabrera took a one-hopper off the face.

    I once had a ball skip off a rock and sock me right in the mouth.

    I’m pretty sure Miguel Cabrera is having a shitty day right now.

  10. Bob Says:

    From here on out, I doubt Peyton will be Peyton.

    1. Injured
    2. No Marvin Harrison in his prime.
    3. These fan-bases and management need to be realistic; not saying he won’t help saod teams however.

  11. Raul Says:

    Well Manning isn’t facing the greatest defenses out in the AFC West.

    I think Manning went to Denver for 2 reasons.
    1. John Fox doesn’t give a shit. He isn’t forcing him into a certain system so Manning can run whatever he wants.

    2. People just love the city of Denver. Seems like a great place.

  12. Bob Says:

    @ 9. Fuck me.

  13. Chuck Says:

    What, so learning a new position in a tougher environment is a good thing for him?

    It’s June first.

    Harper is hitting .228 with three homers and 18 RBI in 35 games with 41 strikeouts.

    He’s raking .108 against lefties and has four stolen bases in twelve attempts and has four errors in the OF, all on ill-advised hero throws.

    By starting him in AAA, you’ve basically eliminated any possibility of sending him DOWN, whereas if he struggled in AA that would be expected, as would a call to AAA if he played well.

    By him starting in AAA and struggling out of the gate, the Nationals have shit the bed and are committed to keeping him in AAA to save their own ass, while doing nothing to help Harper make the mental adjustments.

    Bad, bad move.

    Like, really bad.

  14. Chuck Says:

    Oakland shipped out Michael Taylor on Saturday (along with Chris Carter) and announced their opening day OF will be Coco Crisp in left, Yeonis Cespedes in center and Josh Reddick in right.

  15. Raul Says:


    Taylor is 26 and Carter is 25 and they didn’t make Oakland’s roster?

  16. Cameron Says:

    @11 Even without Brandon Carr, Peyton still has to face KC’s “eat you alive” secondary twice a year with mediocre-to-bad receivers. Still… Ugh, I’m not too thrilled about having him in our division. Also, I’ve been to Denver. It is a fabulous city and I don’t blame him for going there. Second-best place I’ve visited after San Fran.

    @14 You know, seeing Yoenis Cespedes is a more vaible major leaguer than Michael Taylor actually made my opinion on him rise a little. I like Taylor.

  17. Chuck Says:


    Two weeks til opening day and my return full-time to being an annoying pain in the ass.

    Hopefully you’ll have all your football who gives a shit nonsense out of your system by then.

    The A’s are paying Cespedes nine million dollars.

    That’s why he’s the opening day CF.

    Ability has nothing to do with it.

  18. Chuck Says:

    Remember that Japanese shortstop the Twins signed last year, Nishioka or something?

    First cut.

    By a team which lost 99 games last season.

    Another one bites the dust.

  19. Cameron Says:

    Well that and they trade away all the guys who can actually play center field

  20. Chuck Says:

    Raul mentioned Pedro Alvarez and his strikeouts.

    Other than some obscure Oriole non roster guy, you know who leads ALL players in strikeouts this spring?

    With his .179 BA and ..297 OBP?

    Jason Heyward.

    So much for reporting in the best shape of his life.



  21. Chuck Says:

    Crisp can play center.

    So can Taylor

    So can Reddick

    So can Collin Cowgill

    So can Grant Green

    So can Michael Choice

    There is only one reason why the A’s announced Cespedes their opening day CF.


  22. Raul Says:

    I think for some guys, Spring Training numbers aren’t much to get worked up about.
    If you have a history, it’s taken with a grain of salt — no matter how you did.

    But it’s a bit more concerning with a guy like Heyward, who many felt would bounce back big time and hasn’t really shown any flashes of doing so.

  23. Chuck Says:

    Today’s birthdays:

    Clayton Kershaw.

    The late Ivan Calderon. A ten year vet who hit a career .272 primarily with Seattle, Calderon was shot to death in his native Puerto Rico in what was later determined to be a contract hit.

    Mike Norris. Posted a 58-59 record over a ten year career highlighted by a 22-9 record in 1980.

    Richie Ashburn. My mom is an amateur genealogist and during some research found information which leads to the possibility I am a distant relative. I hope not, because most of what she found out isn’t printable.

    Bill Wambsganss. Turned baseball’s first unassisted triple play during the 1920 World Series.

    And, most importantly, my daughter Kelsey, who turns the big one zero today.

  24. Bob Says:

    Kelsey, Happy birthday!!!
    1. What flavor frosting do you like on your cake?
    2. What flavor ice cream?

  25. John Says:

    I’m trying to come up with something less significant than spring training stats.

    I got nothin.

  26. Raul Says:

    Of course you don’t.

  27. Chuck Says:

    Joaquim Soria has a torn UCL and will require Tommy John surgery.

  28. Chuck Says:

    “I’m trying to come up with something less significant than spring training stats.”


  29. Raul Says:

    Looks like the Royals should have taken that Montero-for-Soria deal after all.
    Just kidding.

  30. brautigan Says:

    C’mon Chuck, you know as well as I do that spring trainging stats mean little to nothing. Are you going to tell me that Todd Frazier is going to lead the league in HR’s this year based on his spring training stats? Of course not.

    Heyward will be fine.

    Also, +1 @28.

  31. Raul Says:

    Well, it’s like I said Braut.

    If A-Rod hits .240 in the Spring, who cares?

    But if Adam Dunn came in this Spring and went 3-29 with 22 strikeouts, you’d be concerned.

  32. Chuck Says:

    If spring training stats don’t mean anything, then why keep them?

  33. Cameron Says:

    “Joaquim Soria has a torn UCL and will require Tommy John surgery.”


  34. John Says:

    “If spring training stats don’t mean anything, then why keep them?”

    Literally no reason to.

  35. Raul Says:

    “Literally no reason to”


  36. John Says:

    The league leader in spring training has 48 AB’s.

    You think you can derive anything meaningful from a sample like that?

    Alright, well I’ll just look forward to my 2012 batting champions:

    Lorenzo Cain (KCR)
    Yadi Molina (STL)

    And running away with the home run crown will be Ryan Raburn. He has 5 in 24 at-bats, so look for him to reach triple digits this year.

    Meanwhile, I think the Texas Rangers should go ahead and be concerned about Josh Hamilton and his .167/.188/.200 line. Maybe they should cut him outright.

  37. Raul Says:

    …you’re the guy who thinks Matt Flynn is a good QB.

  38. John Says:

    He is a qb. But you’ve seen him play zero games so I’m sure you know what you’re talking about.

    Sure he wasn’t able to beat out the best quarterback on Earth out for the starting job, so he clearly sucks.

  39. Raul Says:

    Your logic is fascinating.
    No, he’s amazing because he wasn’t the starting quarterback.

    Tell me more, please.
    This is scintillating.

  40. Cameron Says:

    Raul, I’ve seen Flynn a few times. Both starts and off the bench. Guy could be something. Plus, it takes talent to throw a 500 yard game, even in this NFL. I don’t think he’s bad, just overpaid. He’s essentially making anywhere from 10 to 26 million because of one game. That just strikes me as wild speculation.

  41. Cameron Says:

    Plus, c’mon, he was Aaron Rodgers’ backup. Like he was ever gonna start in Green Bay.

  42. John Says:

    Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback in all of football.

    How exactly does it mean anything that Matt Flynn isn’t starting over him?

    Then again, Rodgers was a backup for 3 years, so he must suck too.

    And Favre was a backup for a year and change, so I’ll bet his career amounted to nothing.

    Tom Brady? Steve Young? Fuck’em…worthless.

    Hell, Matt Hasselbeck joined the same team Flynn just did in an almost identical situation. It’s not like he’s the greatest qb in franchise history or anything.

    But yes, Matt Flynn sucks because he’s less good than Aaron Rodgers.

    Along with, apparently, EVERY QB IN FOOTBALL.

  43. Raul Says:

    Not the point, Cameron.

    Matt Flynn had a great game against a shitty Lions defensive secondary and John argues that that one game is enough to judge him as good quarterback and relatively worthy of his new contract with Seattle.

    Yet a full season of a shitty Jayson Heyward, along with a thoroughly disgusting Spring Training is meaningless.

    Spring Training isn’t everything. But it’s not nothing.

    But please.
    This is better than television.

  44. John Says:

    “Yet a full season of a shitty Jayson Heyward, along with a thoroughly disgusting Spring Training is meaningless.”

    First player ever to have a sophomore slump, or struggle due to injuries…ever.

    “Matt Flynn had a great game against a shitty Lions defensive secondary and John argues that that one game is enough to judge him as good quarterback and relatively worthy of his new contract with Seattle.”

    As if Seattle hadn’t scouted him previously, or watched him play in any other games or has noted that he’s an excellent, all-around QB.

    If people in the NFL ran things like Raul, we would never ever ever have had Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Steve Young, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Montana, or pretty much every other QB ever.

    Luckily, people in the NFL don’t run their teams like Raul.

    Except maybe for the Dolphins. Enjoy David Garrard aka “The Safe Choice” and being 6-10.

    But once again, to reiterate, cuz this is hilarious: Raul is saying that Matt Flynn isn’t a good QB because he couldn’t start over the NFL MVP and all-time leader in career passer rating.

    Raul, circa 1951: Mickey Mantle? Why he couldn’t even start over Dimaggio! Cut his ass!

  45. Cameron Says:

    “As if Seattle hadn’t scouted him previously, or watched him play in any other games or has noted that he’s an excellent, all-around QB. ”

    John, that’d require Seattle being competent.

    Also, I noticed something interesting. The Denver Nuggets traded for a new center in JaVale McGee. McGee is notable from suffering a pretty prominent case of athletic asthma.

    …Who’s bright idea was it to bring an asthmatic to fucking Denver?

  46. John Says:

    Of course, Raul still insists that Jose Bautista sucks, because he couldn’t cut it in 2004.

    So, he’s somewhat set in his ways.

  47. John Says:

    Well the Seahawks made the playoffs five straight years under Mike Holmgren, including a Super Bowl appearance. I wouldn’t say they’re a joke of a franchise. Them making the playoffs in 2010 was certainly a joke, but whatever.

    Again, they did this with a former back-up QB. Maybe they shoulda stuck with Jon Kitna and experienced real results.

  48. Cameron Says:

    Under Holmgren, yeah. But in Carroll’s tenure the team’s had some pretty bad runs, plus the front office has sorta tanked the team since then. They’ve had a hard time recovering from their playoff stretch.

    Then again, the division as a whole’s been a joke lately.

  49. Raul Says:


    Dude, you circle around the shit you say all the time so you don’t have to admit that you say some silly ass shit.

  50. John Says:

    They’ve had two years without much in the way of a qb and gone 7-9.

    Now they have a good one.

    But yeah, should’ve gone with Taveras Jackson. That’s a winning solution.

    Raul, circa 1998: Brian Giles? He can’t possibly be any good – couldn’t even take a job from Manny Ramirez.

  51. Chuck Says:

    There’s a big difference between Josh Hamilton hitting .169 or Jason Heyward hitting .179, and if you can’t see that, then what’s left to argue about than Matt Flynn?

  52. Raul Says:

    Well, now I know that John doesn’t understand sarcasm re: that comment about Flynn not taking the starting job.

    But according to you, nothing Jayson Heyward does this Spring matters because of his sophomore slump last year. Hmm. Ok.

    Or is it that Spring Training doesn’t matter because of sample size?

    And sample size is fucking staggering for Matty Flynn…

    ….’round and ’round we go, Jack…..

  53. Chuck Says:

    By the way, not that it matters, but Ryan Braun is hitting .059.

    Must be waiting til after opening day to get his prescriptions refilled, because, you know, got to save on those co-pays.

  54. Raul Says:

    Ryan’s hitting .059 doesn’t matter, Chuck!!

    And if it did, it could be dismissed by stress.

    ….and the world keeps on spinnin…

  55. Raul Says:

    Just in case anyone was wondering about John’s reply…
    It’s going to revolve around “well, let’s see in August when Braun is hitting .315….”

    It’s pretty predictable at this point.

  56. Cameron Says:

    You know, I need to live more like Meat Loaf. Dude never half-assed anything. Need a song about teenage love, what are you gonna get, a sappy little ditty from him? Fuck that, you get an eight and a half minute three piece epic that ends with him trapped in a loveless marriage. And then to tell that wife he doesn’t love him, he says two out of three ain’t bad. I’ve never heard anyone put so much passion into saying how much he doesn’t love someone.

    …I need to be more like THAT guy. I’ve been giving very few fucks lately, feeling kinda bleh.

  57. Raul Says:

    You realize Meat Loaf almost died on stage…a couple of times….

  58. Cameron Says:

    Yep. Love the guy for it. If you’re gonna go out, go out doing what you love to do. Guy hasn’t let it stop him and says there isn’t any other way he’d wanna die. I want to be that dedicated to something.

  59. Raul Says:

    15 days until Opening Day.

  60. Cameron Says:

    15 days too many…

  61. Raul Says:

    Losing Soria shouldn’t sting too much.

    He pitches ten innings a month. I don’t envision Kansas City in a 9th inning 3-2 game situation every day.

    Aaron Crow or whomever the closer is should be enough.

  62. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but last year aside, the dude was one of the surefire closers in the game. KC’s bullpen is incredibly deep this year, but I still do worry. I think right now the main closing competition is between Crow and Collins, though if Broxton returns to his old form, he’s gonna give them a run for their money.

    …Then again, if Broxton returned to his old form, he wouldn’t be 300 pounds. I believe he is now the fattest man in the history of the MLB.

  63. Raul Says:

    Well this is funny.

    Joakim Soria

    In Save Situations:
    189 Games
    198 Innings
    2.59 ERA

    In Non Save Situations:
    109 Games
    117 Innings

    They should change the definition of the Save to include 2 innings of work.
    It wouldn’t be a great definition, but it’d be a little better.

    Mariano Rivera has pitched 17 years, earned 145 million dollars, and has pitched 100 fewer innings than Matt Cain.

  64. John Says:

    A player getting 4 hits in 22 meaningless at’bats isn’t even close to relevent.

  65. Chuck Says:

    Aaron Crow is now a starter.

    So, John, if spring training stats truly are meaningless, then what you really are saying is you shouldn’t use stats to evaluate a player?

  66. Raul Says:

    “A player getting 4 hits in 22 meaningless at bats isn’t even close to relevant”

    …but I’m sure Matt Flynn’s game against Detroit IS…

  67. Raul Says:

    Texas signed Derek Holland to a 5 year, 28 million dollar deal….which is sad because while CJ Wilson stole 77 million from Artie Moreno, he deserved 40.

  68. Raul Says:

    Looks like Vladimir Guerrero is looking to Japan for a contract.

    Peyton Manning got 5 years, 96 million out of the Broncos.

    Hines Ward retires.

    Roy Oswalt, Johnny Damon, Hideki Matsui and Derrek Lee are still Free Agents.

  69. brautigan Says:

    I wonder about Heyward’s shoulder injury, and what type of injury it is. Ever since he hurt his shoulder, Heyward has struggled at the plate, being too cautious and seeing too many good pitches he should have swung at.

    I played with a partially torn rotator cuff, and while it played hell on throwing the ball, it never effected my swing. of course, I batted left and threw right, so it was my right shoulder that was hurt. Heyward bats left and throws left, so it is an entirely different situation and different mechanics are in play.

    And lets see how Giancarlo Stanton plays this year. He has a balky knee and while he can hit the ball now, he can’t run.

  70. Cameron Says:

    5/96? …Fuck, those reports of him looking like his old self must be true if he actually got a raise from what he was making in Indy. Fuckfuckfuck….

    And Chuck, I’m checking the Royals depth chart and Crow’s not even in the starter mix. They may be trying to stretch him, but the guy’s got two pitches.

  71. Jim Says:

    I was thinking that Manning’s contract was long and risky and then remembered that NFL contracts are effectively a series of club options.

  72. Chuck Says:

    Arodys Vizcaino needs Tommy John.


  73. Raul Says:

    I guess Arodys Vizcaino hit that 300-inning season mark one too many times.

    That Atlanta Braves organization runs their pitchers into the ground, Chuck.
    Didn’t you know? It’s a collection of Dusty Bakers managing that franchise.

  74. John Says:

    “…but I’m sure Matt Flynn’s game against Detroit IS…”

    Matt Flynn throwing for 4000 yards and a passer rating > 90
    Ryan Braun hitting 0.059 for the season

    One of these things will happen in 2012.

  75. John Says:

    “So, John, if spring training stats truly are meaningless, then what you really are saying is you shouldn’t use stats to evaluate a player?”

    I’m saying that microsplits are irrelevent.

    Ryan Braun is in a 1 for 17 stretch.

    To you, that means something.

    To someone who understands how these things work, it means nothing.

    Because, here’s the thing: great players have bad stretches all the time…in games that actually matter. It’s just how baseball works, has always worked, and will always work. The fact that a stretch comes at the beginning of a season so that player X’s season average is .059 or .117 at some point means absolutely 100% nothing.

    Your boy Mike (I guess he now goes by his real first name, Giancarlo) Stanton? Currently hitting .222.

    Well, he’s 2 for 9. If he gets a hit in his next at-bat, he’s hitting .300. How much stock are you going to put into 9 at-bats, really?

    Here’s a list of some spring training performances from 2011:

    David Ortiz: .250/.328/.350
    Justin Upton: .254/.312/.423
    Nick Swisher: .254/.274/.339
    Robby Cano: .236/.276/.382
    Lance Berkman: .182/.196/.255

    Berkman’s performance was particularly atrocious, and he was one of the best hitters in the league last season.

    You can’t derive anything meaningful from a sample that small.

    Now, I saw Jason Heyward hit today.

    And he looked awful.

    Got behind in the count, waved on a slider.

    That’s telling.

    But the fact that he’s hitting under .200 in a sample of basically zero?

    Tells me nothing. Josh Hamilton’s doing the same thing, and I bet he looks great at the plate. Probably tagging the ball.

  76. Raul Says:


    That doesn’t mean anything. The fact that you circle around the sample size is everything to defend Matt Flynn is everything.

  77. Raul Says:

    Blah, caught up in two tabs and that last comment reads like some shit on Mitt Romney’s teleprompter.

  78. Raul Says:


    Not the point.

    You said Spring Training stats don’t matter. You added no qualifier.
    And yet here you are…40 comments later.

  79. John Says:

    “You said Spring Training stats don’t matter. You added no qualifier.”

    The fact that I need a qualifier says more about my audience than it does about me.

    But yeah, I’m sure Ryan Raburn is gonna win MVP this year. Lookin’ forward to it.

  80. John Says:

    “The fact that you circle around the sample size is everything to defend Matt Flynn is everything.”

    1) Huh?
    2) If you ran the Seahawks, they’d just go a safe 7-9 for eternity.

  81. Raul Says:

    “The fact that I need a qualifier says more about my audience than it does about me.”

    ….and yet when Chuck says things that are so blatantly obvious, you and Shaun and Felber go on for 50-60-70 posts about minute details.


  82. John Says:

    You think Spring training micro-stats matter.

    I gave my examples of all-stars who would beg to differ.

  83. Mike Felber Says:

    Not all agree with “obvious” statements, & science often disproves matters of “common sense”. And God is in the details. Or for us atheists, metaphorically so.

    Good to see things have the same Saturnine tone around here! Well, not exactly good, but…Almost comforting. I have been busy with my dog & pony show prep.

    I love Meatloaf’s production on things like that epic Cam, & the cutie he did it with was great. but he should have had much less…Meatloaf. And exercised. The passion & drive is great, by why shave possibly decades off of you life span?

    He is one of so many ideal candidates for a VH1 feature.

  84. Chuck Says:

    You said spring training stats don’t matter.

    To Ryan Braun, they don’t.

    To Travis Ishikawa, they mean everything.

    Phil Hughes is an All-Star, and he could very well start the season in Scranton.

    The A’s traded Trevor Cahill for Jarrod Parker, who was supposed to be in Oakland’s opening day rotation.

    He walked seven guys yesterday in three innings and will be the opening day starter in Sacramento.

    Sorry, John, but for 90% of the players, spring training performance will determine the next six months of their lives.

  85. Raul Says:

    Michael Pineda went 3 innings, striking out 5.
    But Andrew McCutchen touched him for a home run to LF in the 1st.

  86. Cameron Says:

    John, you say Spring Training stats don’t matter… Wasn’t Jesus Montero supposed to be catching in New York last Opening Day?

    Also, CHEAP PLUG TIME! I’m going to be a guest host on Turducken is Tasty tomorrow. It’s a general sports podcast since football’s in the offseason now, but it should be a good show.

    Catch me live tomorrow on The show starts at 7 PM, Eastern Standard Time.

  87. Raul Says:

    Must sting to admit when you’re wrong.
    I think Gold Bond helps, though.

    I’m sorry. There’s a sports show called Turducken is Tasty?
    What’s that after? Cheerwine is Chuggable?

  88. Cameron Says:

    If you knew the guys in charge of that, you’d be glad it wasn’t named something a whole lot worse. Plus, the acronym is TiT and we all get a cheap giggle and a joke or two out of it.

  89. Chuck Says:

    Way to set the bar low, Cameron.

  90. Bob Says:

    Mel Parnell R.I.P

    Winningest lefty in Red Sox history.
    125-75 with a 3.50 ERA.

  91. Bob Says:

    And Cam, get your mind out of the gutter, and give us your thoughts on the Royals-Astros trade.

  92. Chuck Says:

    “Hi, this is Cameron live on Turducken is Tasty, and while I’ve personally never heard of Turducken, I’ll be sharing some of my favorite recipes on cooking spam, and will talk about Matt Flynn’s new contract and the likely new retirement options for Tim Tebow.”

  93. Cameron Says:

    For the record, I didn’t name the show. It’s been around for a couple of years now. And Chuck, you’re right on one of those, I likely will bring up Matt Flynn.

    As for the trade… I don’t know who the hell Kevin Chapman is. I do know Bougeois and Quintero, though. We need backstop depth with Perez hurt and Jason ain’t half-bad off the bench. I like it.

  94. Raul Says:

    The New York Jets, after giving a bad Mark Sanchez a contract extension, are interested in Tim Tebow.

    What a joke of a franchise.

  95. Cameron Says:

    Not interested, Raul. timmy’s a Jet… For the price of a fourth-round pick.

  96. Raul Says:

    So Denver sent Jesus to New York.
    No word yet on which team committed the sin.

  97. Cameron Says:

    Let the circus begin!

  98. Chuck Says:

    It doesn’t matter what color your uniform is, carrying a clipboard is the same in any city.

  99. Bob Says:

    Lol @96

  100. Chuck Says:

    “So Denver sent Jesus to New York”

    I thought they already shipped him to Seattle?

  101. Cameron Says:


    Broncos Get
    2012 4th Round Draft Pick
    2012 6th Round Draft Pick

    Jets Get
    Tim Tebow
    2012 7th Round Draft Pick

  102. Chuck Says:

    Mark Sanchez sucks.

    He’s better than Tebow.

  103. John Says:

    Tebow’s a good qb to have in very specific situations, not a guy you want leading your offense.

    Sanchez sucks in all situations, though he’s better than Tebow in most.

    @84, the stats don’t matter, because of the sample. If thwir game is off? That matters, sure…regardless of whether or not the numbers reflect it.

  104. Raul Says:


    “If their game is off? That matters, sure…regardless of whether or not the numbers reflect it”

    …..sounds an awful lot like what Chuck was saying about David Wright 2 years ago. There were a lot of bunched up panties when he said it.

  105. Cameron Says:

    Actually, I watched a fair bit of Tebow last season. The guy’s got a good head on his shoulders. He’s actually a smarter QB than most people think, he’s just terrible mechanically. guy can’t throw, but he knows how to win games. He’s weird. If his ability was anywhere close to what he can run in his head, he’d be amazing.

  106. Chuck Says:

    Montero went to ST last year with at least the back up job in his pocket and he blew it…if Mat Gamel was hitting .118 he’d be out of a job.

    If either of them were established players their stats wouldn’t have mattered, as guys fighting for jobs they meant the difference between major and minor league meal money.

  107. Chuck Says:

    Pouring perfume on shit might make it smell better, but in the long run it’s still gonna stink.

    What Tebow did last year may very well have been divine intervention, but even Jesus doesn’t have the power to make him a good QB long-term.

  108. Cameron Says:

    I think he’s got the head for it… But you’re right, a bad arm’s a bad arm.

  109. Chuck Says:

    I was excited when I heard the Jets had a new QB.

    I thought they had signed Jeremy Lin.

  110. Bob Says:

    They want him. But at guard.

  111. John Says:

    Tebow “knows how to win games” kinda like Rick Helling did the year he won 20.

  112. Chuck Says:

    You’re not implying Jesus does Juice, are you?

  113. Raul Says:

    Happy 68th birthday, Manny Sanguillen! Didn’t have the power hitting of Johnny Bench, but Sanguillen was one of the best catchers during the 1970s. A career .296/.326/.398 hitter, Sanguillen won 2 World Series titles with the Pirates and was a 3-time All Star. He currently runs “Manny’s BBQ”, a concession stand at PNC Park in Pittsburgh.

    Happy 73rd birthday, Tommy Davis! The 18-year veteran had a stretch where he played for 10 teams in 10 years. In 1962, while just 23 years old he hit .346/.374/.535 with 27 HR, 153 RBI and 230 base hits. That’s a hell of a season no matter what the context. He’d finish 3rd in the MVP voting behind Maury Wills and Willie Mays.

    Happy 49th birthday, Shawon Dunston! The 1982 1st overall selection played 18 years, mostly as a part-time player. What’s staggering to me is that in 1999 he appeared in 108 games, gathering 255 Plate Appearances — and walked just 2 times…while still hitting .321.

    Happy 34th birthday, Cristian Guzman! I’d always confuse Guzman with Jose Vidro. Both played for small market teams and seemed to have solid bats. But Vidro had significantly more power. It would amaze some to know that in 2000, Guzman hit 20 triples, while batting just .247/.299/.388.

  114. Chuck Says:

    Mike Darr.

    He was an outfielder with the Padres who was killed (along with a minor leaguer) during spring training a few years ago. The freeway entry ramp I use to get home from work everyday is where the accident happened.

    Hard not to think about it, despite the number of times I go by.

  115. John Says:

    @112, nah, just saying that being the winning pitcher (as a starter) of an 8-6 game is a lot being the winning QB of an NFL game where you win 13-10 where your kicker makes two 50+ field goals.

  116. Chuck Says:

    Pitcher wins have been an official stat for over 100 years.

    QB wins is NOT an official NFL stat.

    Which is a good thing, considering how idiotic it would be.

    Not as idiotic as FIP, but close.

  117. John Says:

    Nothing is more idiotic than pitcher wins.

    Tebow’s fbref page:

    First Stat: Games
    Second Stat: Games Started
    Third Stat: QB Record

    So yeah, it is an official stat.

  118. Chuck Says:

    “So yeah, it is an official stat”

    Football Reference isn’t the official record keeper of the NFL.

    I checked, didn’t see it.

  119. Cameron Says:

    255 PA in 108 games? The fuck does that work?

  120. John Says:

    It’s called a utility player…

  121. John Says:

    Chris Carpenter is hurt, and won’t start opening day.

    Cardinals have slotted Lohse to start, with Lynn moving into the rotation.

  122. Chuck Says:


    Cards have already placed a call to Roy Oswalt.

  123. John Says:

    Speculating or something you heard?

    Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.

  124. Chuck Says:

    You (should) know better.

  125. brautigan Says:

    @114: I could not help but wonder what that accident did to Ben Howard’s career. Who knows? I am sure Ben would be the last to know himself. Just a terrible thing to happen, Darr was a really good guy, just awful, but he wasn’t the first to die at spring training. The Diamondbacks lost a pitcher to DUII fatality a couple of year before Darr’s death.

  126. Chuck Says:

    Ken Robinson, in 1999.

    He was a passenger in a one car accident where the driver, a minor league teammate, was subsequently charged with second degree murder for driving under extreme DUI.

  127. Raul Says:

    Andy Pettitte Stunts Yankee Pitching Prospect Growth, Again

  128. Raul Says:

    Another gem from Del Grippo:

    Speaking of fastball speed, now all we hear now is about Pineda’s velocity. He was only throwing the ball at 91 MPH, and then he only reached 92 MPH in his second and third starts! Oh, my God! What a devastating thing this early in camp. It is unbelievable these beat writers need some sort of controversy in camp, even if they have to create something!

    Velocity is not the end all for pitching. All young kids want to throw harder so they can get a look from scouts and get drafted. Those who throw harder usually get drafted higher, which translates to more cash at signing. But you know what is more important than velocity?
    Pretty much everything else about pitching.

    Velocity only allows you to escape damage WHEN YOU CAN’T LOCATE YOUR PITCHES. If a pitcher can throw to each side of the plate, (you know, like the real good ones always have over the history of baseball), you have the hitter guessing inside or outside. Also, changes in velocity, not necessarily change ups and other off-speed pitches, but different speeds on a fastball. Most pitchers have better command when they “take something off” their fastballs.

    The greatest pitcher of our generation, Greg Maddux, was asked about his key to pitching, and said, “I try to do two things: locate my fastball and change speeds. That’s it. I try to keep as simple as possible. I just throw my fastball to both sides of the plate and change speed every now and then.”

    Maddux also said, “I could probably throw harder if I wanted, but why? When they’re in a jam, a lot of pitchers…try to throw harder. Me, I try to locate better.” That goes with what I teach young pitchers, not to try and throw the ball through the glove, but throw the ball TO the glove. Big difference with this approach. Pitchers who try and overthrow usually end up with pitches out of the strike zone or right down the middle.

  129. Mike Felber Says:

    All this talk about Jesus? He Just Left Chicago.

  130. Chuck Says:

    “All young kids want to throw harder so they can get a look from scouts and get drafted. Those who throw harder usually get drafted higher, which translates to more cash at signing.”

    I disagree with that.

    When scouts look at an amateur pitcher, velocity doesn’t matter either. If it did, Strasburg would have been drafted out of high school, and Maddux would have spent his entire life as a golf pro.

    They try and “project” velocity..what will an 18 year old do as a 23 year old. How much will he grow, and will his fastball match his growth WITHOUT losing command.

    Dellin Betances’ problems aren’t from over-throwing, they’re from his delivery being out of whack. Coming to camp tomorrow and throwing 90 instead of 96 won’t make a bit of difference.

    Nerdy general managers care about velocity.

    PS..Joe is a Yankee fan. Other than Betances and maybe Banuelos, how many Yankee minor leaguers are consistently mid-nineties with their velocity?

    Answer is none. Which kind of shoots the “scout/velocity” theory, at least with New York.

  131. Raul Says:

    I don’t disagree that scouts look at other things besides velocity, but I agree with Del Grippo when he says that kids want to throw hard.

    Someone tells you they have a kid that hits 96 on the gun, you’re going to check him out. He might stink, and you’ll move on, but you will look. I do suppose it’s all relative. If someone told you they had a kid who hit 88 mph, you might say “so what?” But if they told you that kid was 16…well…you know.

    The main reason I pasted that from his article was because of what he said about velocity allowing pitchers to escape damage when they can’t locate. I think that part is generally true.

  132. Bob Says:

    Today’s winners will be

    1. Michigan State
    2. Wisconsin
    3. Ohio State
    4. Florida

  133. Jim Says:

    Saw a piece on the highest paid players for 2012, here are the top 5

    1. Alex Rodriguez, New York Yankees ($32 million)
    2. Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins ($27 million)
    3. Derek Jeter, New York Yankees ($25 million)
    4. Ichiro Suzuki, Seattle Mariners ($24.5 million)
    5. Johan Santana, New York Mets ($24.4 million)

    A long way of saying overpay.

  134. Bob Says:

    In other words the agents for Pujols and Fielder screwed up!!!!!

    Just kidding

  135. Raul Says:

    Why does it say on Baseball-reference that Alex Rodriguez is getting paid 29 million in 2012?

    32 million was for 2011. Are they including his expected milestone bonuses?

  136. Cameron Says:

    It was a mid-loaded contract, Raul. Rodriguez is making less money per year now.

  137. Raul Says:

    I don’t feel like writing today.

    Happy 44th birthday, Ramon Martinez. The brother of Pedro Martinez was a heck of a pitcher in his day. Either due to injuries or…I don’t even know why, Ramon never did put everything together to get to that next level. He’d pitch 14 years going 135-88 with a 3.67 ERA. He would pitch 20 shutouts in his career. In another age, that might not seem like much, but given the context of the last 20 years, it’s quite something. The active leader today is Roy Halladay, also with 20.

    Happy 49th birthday, Rich Monteleone. Rich was one of those guys that was born to pitch in New York. That’s a fantastic name — right up there with Steve Balboni and Rico Brogna.

    Happy 47th birthday, Glenallen Hill. That guy looked like a linebacker in a baseball uniform. Turns out he was juicing, but who wasn’t? A notoriously poor defender, Hill has a severe case of arachnophobia. From Wikipedia: On one occasion Hill sustained cuts and scrapes on his feet, knees and arm during a violent nightmare about spiders. Hill popped out of bed, bumped into a glass table and plunged down a staircase, all occurring when he was asleep. Hill ended up being placed on the 15-day disabled list. This led to him being nicknamed “Spiderman.”

    Happy 30th birthday, Mike Morse. The former Seattle Mariners blue chip prospect, Mike Morse juiced himself from a shortstop to a 6′5, 230 pound first baseman. He had a breakout year in 2011 for Washington, hitting .303/.360/.550 with 31 home runs.

    Born today:
    The late Cory Lidle. Lidle died in 2006 in a helicopter accident in New York City.

  138. Chuck Says:

    Today’s winners…Syracuse, Louisville, Ohio State, Marquette.

    Rodriguez’ salary for 2012 is $29 million.

    He received a $1million “roster bonus” on January first, and will receive a $6 million bonus if he hits career HR #660 this year (he needs 31).

  139. Chuck Says:

    “Someone tells you they have a kid that hits 96 on the gun, you’re going to check him out. He might stink, and you’ll move on, but you will look. I do suppose it’s all relative. If someone told you they had a kid who hit 88 mph, you might say “so what?” But if they told you that kid was 16…well…you know”

    I never once had any of my bosses with Seattle tell me to go “watch some 15 year old who throws 92″.


    Because WHO told them in the first place?

    A parent? The kid’s coach? The mailman?

    Right, like they don’t have their own hidden agendas.

    If a kid is legitimately throwing 92 as a high school sophomore, trust me, every scout and scout wannabe withing a thousand miles has seen him, especially today with his Mommy posting YouTube’s of every start he makes, (“edited for content” of course).

  140. Raul Says:

    Whatever the agenda, the kid is going to be seen.

    That much is true.

  141. Mike Felber Says:

    The world is rife with exaggerations. I am not clear on how much difference there STILL is amongst radar gun readings. But has there ever been a 15 year old who threw 92? if so, he would likely have reached puberty really early & be full grown or nearly so by then.

  142. Raul Says:

    I’ve seen a 15 year old SS i the Dominican Republic soft-toss before practice from one foul poul to the other with hardly any effort.

    It would not surprise me one bit to find a 15 year old kid hit the low 90s.
    Hell, I’ve seen a 17 year old kid hit 94.

  143. Chuck Says:


    I agree, and it’s also not what Joe meant.

    I saw a comment from a scout the other day which said Jameson Taillon has the best curveball in baseball.

    Not the Class A leagues, ALL of baseball.

    The fact he’s 6′6″ and throws 98 was a factor in his getting drafted, but wasn’t the primary reason.

    Strasburg had a great changeup but never threw it, but scouts knew it.

    You think if Aroldis Chapman was in the draft two years ago he would have been the first pick with just a fastball?

  144. Raul Says:

    Point taken.

  145. Chuck Says:

    Chris Young is 6′10″ and can barely break 90.

    Tim Collins is 5′7″ and throws 97.

    Size has little to do with velocity, Mike.

  146. Chuck Says:

    We played our high school games at a minor league field, it was 335 down the lines and 385 to the alleys, with about an 8 foot fence.

    Right next to the RF foul pole was the scoreboard, which was about ten feet behind the fence, so, maybe 345-350.

    We’d play long toss from the third base foul line, trying to hit the scoreboard.

    That’s a 350 foot carry.

    I think out of 18 guys on our varsity team, maybe a dozen could hit it.

  147. Raul Says:

    That’s over 110 yards.

    I don’t think that many guys were hitting that sign. Kudos to anyone who did, though.

    Very impressive.

  148. Chuck Says:

    We used to do it every day after practice, Raul. Maybe it wasn’t a dozen, maybe it was nine, but does that matter?

    I could do it.

    Not every throw, mind you, no one could.

    All the time I played I only had an arm problem once, and I was maybe 15-16. Probably just as much growth as anything, although I do still remember how I hurt it.

  149. Raul Says:

    I guess I have a bit more pessimistic view of it because I played in the northeast, in an area where very, very few players were talented to even get into the Minors.

    I don’t doubt that some of the guys on your team hit it, Chuck.

    I played 1B and while I did long toss, I never did anything that far, nor did I really try.

    I’m sitting here wondering if I could have thrown a ball that far. I probably couldn’t have. Not without practicing, anyway. I guess the few times I played RF, I was tossing about 200-250 feet to the LFer.

    We did try to throw a football far in P.E. class. I think I could throw like 50 yards. But that’s a football…slightly different. I remember this nerdy kid who played no sports whatsoever and he had the ugliest motion I ever saw. And he was chucking footballs 60 yards.

    I really have no point with this response. LOL.

  150. Chuck Says:

    “I guess I have a bit more pessimistic view of it because I played in the northeast, in an area where very, very few players were talented to even get into the Minors.”

    Connecticut’s in the Northeast.

  151. Raul Says:

    Yeah but I grew up in lower Westchester County in New York, Chuck.

    The only really good player to come out of there in recent memory was BJ Surhoff.
    He’s listed as being from the Bronx but he played at Rye High School.

    The Metro area just isn’t that great for baseball players. Or anyone really, except some basketball prospects — and usually they play in NYC or for White Plains.

    But go into Connecticut or Upstate/Western New York and you see a lot of talented football and baseball players.

  152. Chuck Says:

    I used to play in a high level softball league in Westchester County. The park was across the street from the entrance to Westchester Country Club.

    Used to go watch Rangers practices at Playland in Rye..I think they still hold camp there.

  153. Raul Says:

    It’s possible. I don’t even remember the last time I went to Playland.
    It’d get all dirty and over-crowded with people from the Bronx. I might’ve been like 10 or 11 when I last went.

    The Westchester Country Club is out in Harrison, by White Plains. Harrison, Rye…some rich SOBs live out there. Those parents can afford to send their kids to Frozen Ropes and out to training seminars in Florida every year. Bastards…

    I mean, not that Sleepy Hollow/Tarrytown is exactly poor (where I’m from). It’s not. But the town never really put an emphasis in supporting athletics programs there.

  154. Chuck Says:

    Our softball team was “sponsored” by the guy who owned Sunbeam Bakery. There was a plant in Waterbury too and he’d have this mass tryout every year between both places and like 150 guys would show up to get an 18 man roster.

    For five years there wasn’t ONE change to the roster, guys kept coming out every year and they’d get cut every year.

    I never worked for them, I was somebody’s “cousin”.

  155. Raul Says:

    Ha! @ somebody’s cousin.


  156. Chuck Says:

    In the ’80’s Yankee games would start at 8:05.

    We played in a doubleheader league in Westchester on Thursdays, games would start at 5:00.

    If it worked out that we’d win both games by mercy rule, we’d all jump in the car and head over to the Stadium and watch the game.

  157. Raul Says:

    With a crowbar in tow? I mean going to the Bronx at 8pm in the 1980s…lol

  158. Raul Says:

    It’s a good thing they have the new Metro North station stop at Yankee Stadium.
    We’d have to take the train from Tarrytown down to Harlem 125th and catch the subway back up to the Stadium. It wasn’t too bad before the game because we’d usually leave around 5:30 or so to get there early and have a few beers at Billy’s or someplace. But taking that 10-10:30 subway down to 125th and then the Metro North back up? I’m sure lots of people ran into trouble….

  159. Chuck Says:

    We used to park at Bronx Terminal Market..closest to the freeway. Slip the parking guy a few bucks (or beers) and he’d watch the car like it was his own. Never had a problem ever.

    The area around Shea was always worse than around Yankee Stadium.

  160. Raul Says:

    The area around Shea Stadium gave me the creeps.

    Some of those parking spaces had to be like a half-mile away from the stadium. No doubt at least 1 car was stolen every day during the season. Had to be.

  161. Raul Says:

    Danny Duffy got lit up today.
    Adam Dunn hit 2 homers (off Bruce Chen, lol).
    Yasmani Grandal hit his 1st homer of the Spring.
    Pedro Alvarez went 0-3 with 2 more strikeouts.

  162. Mike Felber Says:

    I know size is not a primary factor in throwing ability Chuck, but a certain minimum size is, 5′ 7″ throwing 98 is more unusual than at least around 5′11″. But I was saying that the years of growth, mainly developing strength & testosterone flowing would be a huge advantage to throwing really hard young. A rare 15 year old throwing 92? Maybe, though these things are often exaggerated. By 17, Feller’s age when he reached the major’s it would be less of a unicorn-though of course most guys never have this potential.

    Raul is right, a bunch of H.S. guys throwing 350 or slightly over is unusual. More so IF it is not far from sea level, & they are not throwing with a tailwind. Looking at the record back through the early 19th century or before, it was at 1st a little under 400′, Honus tossed more than that 9with great altitude), & the record, a couple of guys went 445″ & change.

    But Rocky C. is #1 in my book. A 435′, but only tried once, had a foul poul opposing wind, then a cross wind when switching to the outfield throwing towards home, it was at sea level, AND his furthest throw was hit something & was not recorded. Under neutral conditions it seems he could throw over 450′.

  163. Chuck Says:

    Was there a point in there somewhere, Mike?

  164. Chuck Says:

    White Sox at Brewers Saturday..looking forward to seeing Dunn and my boy Alex Rios..probably the biggest underachiever in the game today.

  165. Raul Says:

    Alex Rios should have had a Carlos Beltran-esque career.

    Certainly could have been a 30-homer, .290 hitter.

  166. Chuck Says:

    First time I saw him was in Puerto Rico, he was 19 or so, I think. He was on the same field with guys like Marvin Benard, Armando Rios, Jose Vidro, Carlos Maldonado, and some others and a handful of Triple A guys, and he was the best player.

    I watch him today and just shake my head.

  167. Chuck Says:

    Louisville reminds me of UCONN last year..a good, not great team who pulled it together during the Big East tournament and stayed hot in the NCAA’s. They are just bitch-slapping the shit out of Michigan State.

  168. Raul Says:

    Dear lord, that was awful by Wisconsin.

  169. Chuck Says:

    Herm Edwards ripped Tim Tebow on Mike and Mike this morning.

    Said his choice of the Jets over Jacksonville was more of a reflection of a man than a football player because he turned down a starting job over 8-10 third down wildcat plays per game with New York.

    He said as both a player and coach he owed it to the rest of the team to get rid of a guy who was content with being a backup and coming back to the lockerroom after the game more interested in his dinner plans than the result.

    Tebow KNOWS he sucks, and he KNOWS the more he plays the MORE he’ll damage his reputation.

    I wouldn’t want to be him during the Jets’ first full contact practice. There may not be enough ice in the whole city.

  170. Chuck Says:

    OK, MLBNetwork..the Nationals sent Harper down, you can stop showing them every goddamn day.

    I’ve seen Roger Bernadina and Ian Desmond more this week than I did all last year, and I’m actually quite disturbed by the thought.

  171. Chuck Says:

    Dbacks have broken off talks on an extension for Miguel Montero, who, apparently, believes he is worthy of Yadier Molina money.

    Twelve million a year.

    For Miguel Montero.

    I wouldn’t sign him to a three year, $12 million deal.


  172. Chuck Says:

    Speaking of motherbleepers, Jeff Moorad resigned today as Padres’ CEO.

  173. Raul Says:

    Jacksonville isn’t the NY spotlight, but it is 90 minutes from Gainesville.
    Tebow would have been huge there, and his religion wouldn’t be as big a deal.

    I was surprised he wasn’t traded there.

    If the Jets really think Tim Tebow is going to motivate Mark Sanchez, they must be crazy. If they think a player that would come in on 3rd and Short is the key to winning the Super Bowl, they’re batshit insane.

  174. Raul Says:

    Miguel Montero is a good player and he probably deserves more than the 3 million he earned in 2011.

    It looks like he’s going to make 5.9 million in 2012 and I think that’s fair.
    He was good last year but he hasn’t exactly strung together consistent great years.

    I think you’re being a bit silly saying he isn’t worth 3/12M.
    He’s 28. Not sure if he can be a full-time catcher in the future and he’s not in Molina’s area code defensively…I could see him getting 3 for 18M, but his bat will have to carry him to that contract. A team that could DH him 30 games a year would probably pay him more than any NL team would.

  175. Raul Says:

    After the injury that cost Carlos Santana the Rookie of the Year award, he hasn’t really found his stroke. He didn’t find it last season, and he’s not finding it in Spring Training — with just 7 hits in 36 ABs (.194)

    27 year old Brandon Wood is hoping Coors Field will bring out the power numbers he’s always put up in AAA. He’s not really impressing thusfar though.

    Zack Cozart is raking this Spring. The Reds will hope he carries it into the season because they got nothing out of SS in 2011.

  176. Raul Says:

    George Kontos, Dellin Betances and David Phelps have all pitched very, very well for the Yankees this Spring and each was great tonight.

    All of them will be sent down when the season starts.

    Man, it really sucks to be a young pitcher with the Yankees.

  177. Mike Felber Says:

    Ha! Yes Chuck, there were many specific points.

    I recall you writing about Harper tossing the ball 300′ to the infield, though “ice was forming on it on the way down” (not exact quote). If a highly athletic teen phenom impresses you with that throw, then at least 1/2 of your H.S. team throwing at least 350′ is especially impressive. That does not sound like an average set of arms for HS baseball players at all.

  178. Chuck Says:

    “If a highly athletic teen phenom impresses you with that throw..”

    It was underhand, hard not to be. Although as a stathead, I can understand how you wouldn’t.

    I don’t know, Raul…Wood and Tyler Colvin are the only two Rockies players to appear in every game, despite only starting four times Wood is third in PA’s.

    Seems to me the Rockies really like him and are giving him every opportunity to win the backup infield job, and the fact he’s still in camp as a non-roster player this late is a good thing.


    Don’t see that too often.

  179. Bob Says:

    The 2 games I cared about about last night screw me. Today will be

    1. Baylor
    2. UNC
    3. Kansas
    4. Kentucky, though rooting for Indiana.

  180. Bob Says:

    Bobby Jenks is the latest athlete to get nailed for DUI.

  181. Chuck Says:

    Joba Chamberlain had surgery last night to repair a broken and “open dislocation” of his right ankle and will miss the season. Brian Cashman told Jack Curry the injury is “career threatening.”

    What was he doing?

    He was playing on a trampoline with his son.

  182. Chuck Says:

    “Bobby Jenks is the latest athlete to get nailed for DUI.”

    Add Matt Bush to the list.

  183. Raul Says:

    Wow @ Joba. Don’t most people know that trampolines are dangerous? I’m starting to feel a little bad for the guy. It’s not like he’s a super smart dude and from what I understand, Joba comes from a very poor household. If he can’t play baseball, things can get really ugly for him.

    Doesn’t MLB provide drivers for their players? It’s sad that these players are taking chances with their lives like that. Their lives, and other people’s lives. Nick Adenhart wasn’t that long ago.

  184. brautigan Says:

    Does anyone want to go to Spring Training next year to be the “designated driver for MLB”?

    These guys make enough money to ride a taxi, what are they doing collecting more DUI’s? Christ, Bush ran over the old guy’s head and it is pure fortune the old guy didn’t die.

    Are you listening MLB? (Weren’t we just “talking” about this re: Ken Robinson and Mike Darr?)

  185. Raul Says:

    Happy 24th birthday, Dellin Betances! Betances is pitching well this Spring but he has no chance at a ML spot right now. He is destined to go back to the Minors in 2 weeks for his (gulp) 7th Minor League season.

    Happy 33rd birthday, Mark Buehrle! After 12 years in Chicago, Buehrle left for the allure of South Beach when he joined the Miami Marlins. With a career record of 161-119 with a 3.83 ERA, Buehrle wasn’t THAT impressive in the American League. It should be interesting if he plays out better in the National League where offense is generally not as strong.

    Happy 31st birthday, Tony Pena Jr. Not even your dad could keep you in the Majors. The son of a fantastic catcher, Junior was a weak-hitting shortstop for the Braves and Royals. A career .228/.248/.300 hitter, he is trying to remake himself as a pitcher, having spent last season with the Boston Red Sox’s AAA affiliate.

    Happy 46th birthday, Mark Remlinger! Remlinger went to Dartmouth, so excuse me as I throw on a sweater vest to type this one. The 14-year veteran had moderate success as a reliever for the Braves and Cubs in the early 2000s. Remlinger was the guy who saved Sammy Sosa’s shattered, corked bat in 2003.

    Happy 68th birthday, George Scott! The 14-year veteran was a solid offensive player and probably a better defensive player during the 1960s and ’70s with Boston and Milwaukee. Over his career he hit .268/.333/.435 with 271 homers and 60 triples. Scott is from Greenville, Mississippi. Normally, I’d say that wasteland should secede and become it’s own worthless country. But Greenville did produce some notable people over the years, including Jim Henson of The Muppets fame, and former MLB 2nd baseman, Frank White.

    Happy 69th birthday, Lee May! May was one of the guys in a trade that sent Joe Morgan to the Cincinnati Reds. The 18-year veteran hit .267/.313/.459 with 354 homers and 2,031 hits. May hit the last home run HOFer Juan Marichal allowed in his career.

    Happy birthday, Mike Darr Sr.! Well, it may not be that happy. As noted earlier, Mike Darr Jr. was born 2 days earlier in 1976 and died in a car accident in 2002 where he was drunk, and not wearing a seatbelt. Darr Sr. didn’t exactly have much of a Major League career — he lasted just 1.1 innings in 1 career start for Toronto in 1977. He allowed 3 hits, 4 walks, 1 HR and faced 12 batters before being yanked.

  186. Kerry Says:

    I have a Lee Maye (different person!) baseball card somewhere in my basement.

    Odd fact: Lee May and Lee Maye played in the same game only twice, even though their careers overlapped for seven years. May and Maye were in the same league for only two years (1965-66), when May was just coming up.

    They played in the same game in both halves of a Houston-Cincinnati double-header on Sept. 28, 1966. The announcers must have had fun that day!

  187. Chuck Says:


    Gavvy Gravath..single season HR record holder before Babe Ruth.

    Johnny Moore..centerfielder for the 1932 Cubs and from my hometown..he used to own the batting cages were we used to go in high school and he said many times Ruth’s “called shot” was bullshit.

    Jim of the great throwing arms of all time from the OF.

    Bo Diaz..former All-Star catcher killed when trying to install a satellite dish on his house and it fell on him.

    George Scott is third all time behind Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly for most Gold Gloves (8) among first baseman.

  188. Raul Says:

    That gold gloves fact would be a good trivia question.

  189. Chuck Says:

    Scott had a pretty interesting 1968 he had one of the worst offensive seasons of all time, luckily for him he didn’t have the necessary PA’s to qualify.

    He hit .171, with a .236 OBP and a .237 SLG.

    In 1975, however, with Milwaukee, he led the AL in homers, RBI and total bases.

    He was also known for wearing a batting helmet while playing first base, ala Dick Allen and John Olerud.

  190. Chuck Says:

    Figures, I’m not working today..Dan Haren v. Zack Greinke

  191. Raul Says:

    Greinke battle Kershaw for the 2012 NL Cy Young.
    Kershaw will win.

  192. Chuck Says:

    Winners today..Baylor, North Carolina, Kansas, Indiana.

    Indiana beat Kentucky during the regular season by trapping on defense and shooting three’s. Same game plan, hopefully the same result.

    Bobby Jenks is blaming his DUI on prescription muscle relaxers.

    DUI is DUI, dumbass.

  193. Raul Says:

    I hate Kansas.
    Go NC State!

  194. John Says:

    @191, I hope so.

    The part about Greinke being in the running, I mean.

  195. Cameron Says:

    I doubt it Raul, Grinke’s a pure hit-or-miss kind of pitcher these days and he’s getting hit pretty frequently. Kershaw’s a heavy favorite to win another NL Cy Young. I think his major competition is gonna be Halladay… And for some reason, my gut’s telling me Tim Lincecum’s gonna have a (relative) bounceback year this year.

  196. John Says:

    At least Greinke has gotten through an off-season without destroying his ribs in a pick-up bball game.

    I think he’ll bounce back somewhat in a healthy, contract year. Let’s say, 18-7, 3.20 ERA, 230 K’s, 1.100 WHIP.

  197. Cameron Says:

    You are very optimistic on Zack. As a guy who’s seen pretty much his whole career, I can say he’s likely to post a 3.80 ERA this year. Great peripherals as usual, but he’ll give up runs.

  198. Chuck Says:

    There’s maybe ten “A” pitchers in the National League, problem is, combined they encompass three or four teams.

    Lincecum, Cain

    Greinke, Gallardo

    Halladay, Lee

    Kennedy, Hudson

    Johnson, Sanchez

    That’s about it.

  199. Chuck Says:

    Tried to listen to your show the other night, Cameron.

    Got to tell you, man, that is the saddest website I’ve ever seen.

  200. Raul Says:

    Greinke pitched well last year and had some crappy luck and not a very good defense behind him.
    He’ll be better this year, and Roy Halladay has to come to earth sooner or later — though maybe this won’t be the year.

    I think Lincecum will be in the running.
    Ian Kennedy will be good, but maybe not as good as last year.
    The Cardinals will be careful with Adam Wainwright.
    Stephen Strasburg has the kind of ability where he could go a month while giving up just 4 or 5 runs total runs — but it won’t happen with the defense behind him now.

    Most of the interesting up-and-coming pitchers seem to be in the American League, in my opinion.

  201. Cameron Says:

    Hell, I’d argue even less. Sanchez and Gallardo are good, but they’re more “B-Plus”. They’re not a guy you put out and can get a near-guarantee on a win. A good shot, but not a lock. Kennedy and Hudson are a bit too soon to call. They both had good years, but I wouldn’t lock ‘em yet. I’ll give you Greinke grudgingly, but that’s solely off Milwaukee’s run support. His flyball pitching kills him.

    Johnson (when healthy)
    Carpenter (I’m kinda wavering on this one, tbh).

    I might include Wainwright in there too if he returns to form.

  202. Cameron Says:

    The website is just the feed of the live stream, Chuck, It’s not the website proper.

  203. Raul Says:

    Does the Joba injury make it more likely that Phil Hughes gets pushed to the bullpen? Or does it have no effect?

  204. Cameron Says:

    The only job Joba had any chance of changing was “biggest eater at the catering table”, Raul.

  205. Bob Says:

    Good question. Probably prevents a trade of Hughes or Nova, as I speculated last week. TGIF!!!

  206. Chuck Says:


    No effect.

  207. Raul Says:

    Let’s be fair for a second.

    The biggest reason why Chamberlain’s weight gets made fun of is because he isn’t consistently effective.

    CC Sabathia doesn’t get those fat jokes because he’s good.
    Yeah, Sabathia has more endurance than Chamberlain, but that’s not the point.

    And while I’m at it, I’ll say something else. Joba Chamberlain is as much to blame for his failures as anyone. But let’s not act like the Yankees are not completely terrible and inept in developing players. They grossly mis-managed him. And they’re doing a really crappy job with Hughes, Phelps, Betances and others. I’m scared for Gary Sanchez. Who knows? In 2 years NY might have him playing Shortstop or something.

  208. Chuck Says:

    In scanning the NL rotations, I count 21 potential Cy candidates. Obviously subjective, could go as high as 26 or as few as 17-18.

    If he could stay healthy for a full season (230 innings), I’d have Tim Hudson on my list every year.

    I like Gallardo, but Greinke’s so much better.

    Wainwright is coming off TJ and is almost guaranteed to be on an innings limit, and Carpenter is 107 years old and is already hurt, so they’re both out.

    I would put Ryan Dempster in the same category with Hudson.

    Ian Kennedy and Daniel Hudson were outstanding last year, but not convinced either can repeat.

    Chad Billingsley..see Tim Hudson and Ryan Dempster.

    Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain.

    Josh Johnson is also coming off an injury, as is Strasburg.

    There’s also Gio Gonzalez and Jordan Zimmermann.

    Halladay, Lee and Hamels

    Johnny Cueto and Mat Latos.

    Sleepers for me this year are Latos (new team, better team), Hamels (walk year), Cain (pissed he hasn’t gotten an extension), and Billingsley.

    Put a gun to my head and make a pick?


    Go out on a limb and make an off the wall suggestion?

    Probably Cain or Hamels.

  209. Cameron Says:

    New York seems to develop more knee-jerk reactions to players than most. I think it’s just because, in my eyes, it looks like they’re trying to protect their big names more than anyone else. Have they even tried to develop proper heirs to Jeter and A-Rod or are they trying to protect their big names as long as possible? If these guys start to underperform and there’s a hotshot down in Scranton ready to take their place, the fans are gonna riot, and the Yankees don’t want that.

    I’m probably way off-base, but it’s something I noticed. They’d much rather just plug a hole as soon as it opens with whatever patch they can find rather than properly fill it.

  210. Chuck Says:


    That’s fair.

  211. Cameron Says:

    Well Chuck, I wasn’t arguing Cy candidates. I was just saying who I thought were the real top-flight guys in the NL. Guys who give good results and consistently so. Anyone can have a good year, but there’s a difference between a guy who you think can have a good year and a guy you know will have a good year. But you’ve been watching longer than I’ve been alive, so you probably knew that.

  212. John Says:

    “Greinke pitched well last year and had some crappy luck and not a very good defense behind him.”


    Yeah, defense sucked. No question.

    But he also got boatloads of run support, so his luck kinda went both ways. He won as many games in 2011 as he did in his Cy Young year, with 6 fewer starts.

    “I’ll give you Greinke grudgingly, but that’s solely off Milwaukee’s run support. His flyball pitching kills him.”

    Out of the 94 pitchers in the big leagues who qualified for the ERA title, Greinke ranked 26th in GB/FB ratio, tied with CC Sabathia and RA Dickey.

    I thought Greinke’s biggest issue was that he was too easily rattled by the crap defense behind him – he was uncharacteristically bad after defensive miscues, particularly those that extended innings.

    And I mean, more than you would think. It’s obvious that a guy is going to give up more runs in innings where his opponent gets 4 outs. But it felt like Greinke’s opponents hit about .400 following an error or defensive miscue (ie, ball hit two feet to Yuni’s left, and he can’t get it sort of thing).

    Also remember that he was recovering from a rib injury for the better part of last year.

    As far as this year’s Cy Young candidates…I like post 208, pretty much sums it up.

  213. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, good summing up I think on 208. I just don’t have any faith in Greinke to put up a good ERA to win. I keep insisting that 2009 was the exception for him and not the norm. He isn’t a guy you can count on to prevent runs.

    Gun to my head, I’m actually saying Lincecum, but it’s more realistically a coin flip between him and the ace on the other end of the rivalry.

  214. Cameron Says:

    Hm, just realized Washington’s defense is pretty much all concentrated at the corners. LaRoche (if he’s healthy), Zimmerman, and Werth are about the only good defenders on that team. Is there any team that’s more corner-heavy in the league than these guys?

  215. Chuck Says:

    Greinke’s through three scoreless today, with 5 K’s.

    Counting today, he’s pitched ten innings, allowed nine hits, two walks, with 16 strikeouts.

  216. Cameron Says:

    About in line with what I expect out of Zack. How many runs off those 9 hits?

  217. Chuck Says:

    Correction, one walk.

    Two runs, one earned.

    No XBH.

    I’ve seen him twice, his stuff the other day was sick.

  218. Chuck Says:

    Cameron, your bias against Greinke for bailing on the Royals is so obvious.

  219. Cameron Says:

    I’ll admit I am biased against him, him and Johnny Damon. But I know high ERAs when I see them. Do I need to break it down for you year-by-year?

    2004 – 3.97 (24 G, 24 GS)
    2005 – 5.80 (33 G, 33 GS)
    2006 – 4.26 (3 G, 0 GS)
    2007 – 3.69 (52 G, 14 GS)
    2008 – 3.47 (33 G, 33 GS)
    2009 – 2.16 (32 G, 33 GS)
    2010 – 4.17 (33 G, 33 GS)
    2011 – 3.83 (28 G, 28 GS)
    Career – 3.82 (238 G, 197 GS)

    Not only would an ERA of 3.20 as you guys expect be the second best ERA of his career, it’d a .27 point difference over the old #2 mark and a .62 point mark over his career mark. He’s kept his ERA under 3.50 twice and largely as a starter, the years in the bullpen had very little effect on his ERA at all.

    I won’t deny he’s a good pitcher, he can get guys out when he wants, but he simply won’t keep enough guys off home plate to be the elite mark in the league. He did it once and it was an extreme statistical anomaly.

  220. Chuck Says:

    There is an anomaly in those numbers Cam, but 2009 ain’t it.

  221. Cameron Says:

    Really? A career best ERA of a 1.31 difference from the second best year and a 2.66 difference from his career doesn’t strike you as something that you shouldn’t come to expect every year? I find that a tad delusional.

    Granted, his numbers like H/9 and K/9 don’t exactly correlate with him producing these ERAs and he’s historically been under some pretty terrible defenses, but I’m sticking by the fact that regressing to the mean looks more like 2011 for him than 2009. Not great, but he’s still a guy you wanna have. He is by no means a bad pitcher, but I won’t rely on him to produce an ERA that will impress the BBWAA. Wins? Yes. Strikeouts? Yes. ERA? No.

  222. Cameron Says:

    And before you say it, yes, 2005 tanked the ERA pretty hard. Not enough to deny that for the past couple of years, he hasn’t looked too great.

  223. John Says:

    I don’t wanna pretend like this is the only factor in the equation or anything, but Greinke is pretty solidly a groundball pitcher, and he has had one of the very worst defensive SS’s in the game, maybe ever, playing behind him the last couple seasons.

    Last year’s Brewers infield defense was comically bad all the way around.

    I mean…atrocious.

  224. John Says:

    Any time a pitcher puts up a 2.16 ERA, it’s at least something of an anomaly. No one is going to consistently do that year after year, thereby making it an anomaly.

    But, I agree with Chuck (were the mayans right?) that Greinke is a legitimately outstanding pitcher with all the right tools.

    He’s coming back healthy this season. He’s going to have decent run support again, even if it’ll suffer a notch this year.

    I’m optimistic. At least about Greinke. Not as much about the Brewers.

  225. Chuck Says:

    Done for the day..5.1 innings, two hits, no runs, NINE strikeouts.

    Regular Angels lineup with the exception no DH and Jorge Cantu at first instead of Albert.

  226. John Says:

    “Jorge Cantu at first instead of Albert.”

    Haha, well that’s kind of a big difference, but I’ll take it.

  227. Chuck Says:

    “and a 2.66 difference from his career”


  228. Chuck Says:

    Greinke got Haren, Willy Aybar, Howie Kendrick and Chris Iannetta twice each, and Vernon Wells once.

  229. Raul Says:

    Indiana up 4 on Kentucky.
    3 minutes left.

  230. Raul Says:

    Nevermind that.

    45-45 with 64 seconds to go.

  231. Raul Says:

    Kentucky leads.
    34 seconds

  232. Raul Says:


  233. Bob Says:

    Ohio State and Louisville. Rooting for Florida though.

  234. Bob Says:

    Joe Torre is working for MLB again.

  235. Mike Felber Says:

    It did not occur to you Chuck that I was not aware that the 300′ throw was underhanded? And that anyone might not know that, or that most any “stat head” would be impressed by that? You are stretching even any negative stereotypes to try & claim otherwise.

    But I agree with you on Grienke. Cameron, you wrote:

    “Granted, his numbers like H/9 and K/9 don’t exactly correlate with him producing these ERAs and he’s historically been under some pretty terrible defenses…”

    But you provided no reasons that these factors do not account for the discrepancy in ERA vs. actual pitching quality that others are citing. That & him being a GB pitcher means his ERA differentials on either end, which you overstated by a full run accidentally, should not be right in the middle like only you predict. You even stated the main reasons why Grieke is better than the #s suggest, but explicitly dismissed them with zero rationale.

    The very definition & example of of your confessed bias!

  236. Bob Says:

    Ryan Madson, the latest baseball player to need Tommy John surgery. Are the Reds effed?

    … or will this allow people to see for themselves how overrated and overpaid closers are?

  237. Raul Says:

    I think Madson had a 1 year, 8M deal.

    They could have used some of that money towards outfield help.
    Chris Heisey is their LF with Ryan Ludwick as the backup.

    Not exactly thrilled to hang my hat on that.

    And then there’s Scott Rolen at 3B. He hasn’t played 140 games since 2006.

  238. Bob Says:

    Close. It was a 1-year 8.5M deal.

  239. John Says:

    @237, who might the Reds have tried to sign though?

  240. Raul Says:

    …anyone not named Chris Heisey.

  241. Raul Says:

    Listening to the radio broadcast of the Brewers/White Sox.

    What a treat to listen to Bob Uecker. Hope he lives 10 more years.

  242. John Says:

    @240, well played.

    My thing is that it’s like – ok, sure, 8.5 million dollars would be far better spent on an 8.5-million dollar caliber outfielder than an 8.5 million dollar caliber closer. Problem was, I’m not sure who Mr. 8.5 Million was.

    And obviously, it sucks for them. Normally, I have a tough time saying that losing a reliever is a game-changer, but I think the Reds, Cards, and Brewers are all pretty close overall, so that might tip the balance a bit.

  243. Raul Says:

    Well Heisey did hit .254/.309/.487 last year.
    If he can walk a little more, you can live with it.

    He is 27 and he is cheap. I get it. But it doesn’t look like he’s showing much improvement this Spring.

    I suppose it says something about Yonder Alonso’s defense that the Reds did not see him fit to play outfield because Alonso’s bat easily beats Heisey’s.

    …well, to be fair, Alonso brought them Mat Latos. BTW, San Diego won that trade, even though the season hasn’t started.

    San Diego got:
    Yonder Alonso
    Edison Volquez
    Yasmani Grandal
    Brad Boxberger

    Cincinnati got:
    Mat Latos

  244. John Says:

    Agreed – Latos is pretty good, but not worth that haul – and I gotta believe his numbers will swell going from the most pitcher-friendly park in the game, to the second or third most hitter-friendly

  245. John Says:

    By the way, any takers for fantasy baseball this year?

  246. Cameron Says:

    It looks like bidding for the Dodgers is down to the final 3.

    -The Magic Johnson/Stan Kansten Group
    -The Steve Cohen/Pat Soon-Shiang Group
    -Stan Kroenke (this will be his third team after the Denver Nuggets and St. Louis Rams)

  247. Raul Says:

    I have my fantasy draft later today.
    But it’s with ESPN and I’m only used to Yahoo and CBS leagues.

  248. Bob Says:

    @245. Sure. You gonna do the legwork?

  249. Bob Says:

    Baylor and North Carolina.

  250. Cameron Says:

    If I had to put money on a winner this year, it’s North Carolina given Kentucky’s already out. Latest mock draft I saw had 2 NC guys as top 10 picks. That’s good talent.

  251. Bob Says:

    I am rooting for either Ohio State or N.C.

  252. Cameron Says:

    Wait, North Carolina’s playing Kansas?

    Take it back, go Jayhawks!

  253. Raul Says:

    Fuck Kansas.
    UNC all the way.

  254. Raul Says:

    Ohio State isn’t that good.
    All you have to do is get Sullinger in foul trouble (which is easy), and force OSU to take perimeter shots. The whole game against Syracuse they just dropped the ball in the low post and passed it back to a player cutting to the rim.

    If Syracuse had Fab Melo in the paint, they win that game.

  255. Bob Says:

    @ 254.Still rooting for them. And I have hated Kansas since that bullshit clock malfunction IN KANSAS allowed kansas to beat Michigan State in 1988. Danny Manning and the miracles my ass. What bullshit.

  256. Cameron Says:

    Hate all you want, I’m a Jayhawk through and through. When you’re a dean’s grandson, you kinda have to be.

  257. John Says:

    Frankly, I think Big 10 basketball is borderline unwatchable.

    You have teams passing it around aimlessly for 35 seconds, not apparently concerned about actually finding the best shot…and when the shot clock is about to expire, well, gotta shoot now!

    Sure, that’s what you do if you’re winning at the end of a game, but the Big 10 does that ALL THE TIME. Doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason or anything.

  258. Chuck Says:

    “It did not occur to you Chuck that I was not aware that the 300′ throw was underhanded?”

    It didn’t occur to you Mark McGwire was using steriods either until he admitted it.

    In a baseball sense, I’m not convinced you know the sun rises in the East.

    “And that anyone might not know that, or that most any “stat head” would be impressed by that?

    “Ryan Madson, the latest baseball player to need Tommy John surgery. Are the Reds effed?”

    No, just stupid.

    I’m convinced the Phillies knew he was hurt and were so willing to let him walk.

    I posted it when it happened. I mean like ten seconds after he made the throw..cause, you know, I was there.

  259. Cameron Says:

    @257 If I had to guess, it’s all about clock control in that game. The less possessions you give guys, the less chance they have to score on you. Boring? Yes. Effective? …Depends on your defense, and that game works well for KU because Self coaches some good D.

    @258 Chuck, help me out here. If Madson is hurt and he’s not gonna play… Does Madson see a cent of that eight million?

  260. Raul Says:

    Notable birthdays over the weekend:

    March 24:

    George Sisler (HOF)
    Bruce Hurst
    Jesus Alou
    Wilson Alvarez
    Gary Templeton
    Starlin Castro
    Corey Hart
    Jose Valverde
    Steve Karsay
    Tom Glavine

    March 25:

    Lee Mazzilli
    Travis Fryman
    Dan Wilson

    Tom Glavine (304 career wins) prior to his Age-35 season had 208 wins. During Glavine’s career with the Mets (Age 37 to 41) he went 61-56 with a 3.97 ERA).

  261. Mike Felber Says:

    Huh Chuck? That i did not know a throw was underhanded just means i did not hear the report about that particular event. It has nothing to do with overall baseball knowledge.

    It ocurred to me that Big Mac might be using steroids. But you are mistaken, & I have been explicit about this several times, that i did not believe he was using until he admitted it. His non-testimony in front of Congress was evidence enough for me. But being right that he used does not show that you know baseball, any more than if you are convinced someone did NOT use shows you are ignorant about baseball if he did not.

    Many can get his size with the right training & genetics, & he did not get huge overnight. A small % of folks to be sure, but an even smaller % of folks can be good MLB players potentially, let alone stars.

    Of course, assuming guilt is an easier position to take in a sense, since no negative can be absolutely proved. So you can never be definitively exposed if you make an incorrect, likely unfair presumption, but we both agree that some guys will be dirty, so even if by the law of averages, sometimes you will be right.

  262. Raul Says:

    “Many can get his size with the right training & genetics”

    …but not baseball players.

  263. Chuck Says:

    “@258 Chuck, help me out here. If Madson is hurt and he’s not gonna play… Does Madson see a cent of that eight million?”

    He sees all of it.

    Tommy John is a baseball related injury, so the league insurance will cover 80%, the Reds the rest.

  264. Chuck Says:

    “I have been explicit about this several times, that i did not believe he was using until he admitted it.”

    Isn’t that what I said?

    Stevie Wonder could see he was using.

    But you didn’t.

  265. Mike Felber Says:

    Sorry Chuck, I meant to type just what I put in the next phrase: it was his non-testimony before Congress that I repeatedly said was the factor that made me believe in his guilt, NOT his ultimate confession.

    Raul, that is just not true. baseball players TEND not to have the genetics of the most mesomorphic (sic) athletes & individuals, but especially with power being at a premium, of course some are. The Big Hurt was one. If Mantle or The Beast (Foxx) lifted weights & ate properly, who knows what size they have been? Certainly significantly bigger than they were, even absent PEDs.

    Any large enough group of guys will have some outliers, that goes double for athletes in a sport that values & rewards power. To think that no ballplayers have these genetics is either ironically very naive, or twisting logic to maintain the cynicism that any that get that big are dirty.

  266. Raul Says:

    No, Mike.

    Baseball players are not shredded monster athletes that weigh as much as NFL middle linebackers.

    Look around the league. There are far, far fewer players today that are as big as the players in 2001.

    Mark McGwire is listed at 6′5, 215 pounds.
    Dave Winfield is listed at 6′6, 220 pounds.

    Dave Winfield never ever came close to being as jacked up as McGwire, despite a much bigger and wider frame. But I’m sure your argument might be that Dave Winfield never lifted a weight in his life.

    Could Roger Federer lift weights and gain 20 pounds of muscle? Sure, if he juiced up. But he couldn’t do it naturally and still be a tennis player. Know why? Because the sport is simply inconducive to such a thing.

    Baseball is a sport where you have little breaks during the season. It’s highly strenuous and demands a high level of agility and athleticism. In order for a guy to jack up 20-25 pounds of muscle and to be able to keep it over the course of a 162-game season with little breaks in intense summer heat, it does not happen.

    This isn’t football. Baseball players don’t lift weights every day.

    But sure, show me all these jacked up baseball players today that are doing it naturally. Bret Boone was bigger in 2002 than damn near half the players in the game today.

  267. brautigan Says:

    Mike: It has been my experience that the more a baseball player works out, they really don’t gain that much in size. I went from 185 my senior year in high school to 205 my freshman year. By looking at pictures of me then, you wouldn’t have known I gained a pound, let alone 20.

    I think it ironic that you mention if Jimmy Foxx and Mantle were to have worked out and eaten a proper diet they would have been a different size. I don’t know, I really don’t think they would have looked much differently. Besides, guys like Duke Snider didn’t work out too often in the off season, those guys had to work in the off season, unlike todays ballplayers.

  268. Raul Says:


    Frank Thomas was 6′5, 240lbs (yeah, right) and he was fat.

  269. Cameron Says:

    @263 So the league pays out for most of injured players… Did not know that. Thanks, Chuck.

    @268 He really didn’t get fat until his later days in Chicago. In Oakland and Toronto he had a noticeable gut, but in the back-to-back MVP years, dude was just solid muscle.

  270. Chuck Says:

    So…the Royals sent their 2011 regular second baseman, Johnny Giovatella, to AAA and will start the season with…hold on…Yuniesky Betancourt as their starter..(with Chris “Is he still in the league” Getz) in the mix as well.

  271. Chuck Says:

    “He really didn’t get fat until his later days in Chicago”

    Because he stopped lifting everyday and his Auburn football muscles fell off?


  272. Raul Says:

    Happy 30th birthday, Brendan Ryan. Largely known as a defensive player, Ryan has some unfortunate timing. He came up with the Cardinals in 2007, just missing out on their World Series championship in 2006. Then he was traded to Seattle for 2011, missing out in the Cardinals’ next title.

    Happy 50th birthday, Kevin Seiter! A 12-year veteran, Seitzer is what you might call a “professional hitter”. Not terribly powerful (he slugged .404 in his career), he did hit .295 in the midst of some really bad Royals and Brewers teams. Now a hitting coach with the Royals, Seitzer has the burden (or perhaps joy) of turning Kansas City’s young prospects into quality Major Leaguers. Many in Major League circles credit Seitzer for helping Alex Gordon turn around his career.

    Happy 44th birthday, Jose Vizcaino! Vizcaino is one of those guys who seemed much better than his stats suggest. An 18-year veteran, Vizcaino is one of only 3 players (the others being Ricky Ledee and Darryl Strawberry) to have played for all of the New York teams: The Yankees, Dodgers, Mets and Giants.

    Happy 44th birthday, Shane Reynolds! I don’t get Shane Reynolds. I remember watching him with Houston thinking he should have been a 20-game winner, possibly multiple times. He could strike guys out. He didn’t really walk a ton of hitters. He didn’t really give up an abnormally high number of homers. But he always gave up a lot of hits. Reynolds retired after the 2004 season after 13 years.

  273. Raul Says:

    Over the winter, the Miami Marlins invested 201 million dollars in contracts for Ozzie Guillen, Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle and Heath Bell. This is a team that last season, won 72 games. They better win. And they better win quickly.

    Who feels old? Camden Yards has now been around for 20 years.

    The Detroit Tigers sent top pitching prospect Jacob Turner down to AAA.

    And Michael Pineda could care less about velocity and is focused on “maturing” and his change-up. Atta boy…

  274. Raul Says:

    The Pirates are going to stick with Pedro Alvarez for now.
    In a way, I suppose it’s commendable that the Pirates are sticking by their guy, hoping he figures it out. On the other hand, Alvarez hasn’t shown the ability to hit Major League pitching at all. And his 2012 Spring Training has been terrible.

    According to an ESPN article, the Pirates urged Alvarez to play Winter Ball during the offseason but he refused — choosing instead to workout in California with his personal trainer.

    I think Neal Huntington is trying to save face. Or at least, someone is forcing him to keep Alvarez on the roster. Pittsburgh has a bright future but it seems they will do anything to try and get some return on their 12 million dollar investment on the third baseman.

  275. Chuck Says:

    I don’t understand the bs about Pineda’s velocity anyway.

    What’s the last thing to comeback after an extended layoff?


  276. Raul Says:

    Many people say radar guns, more than any one thing, has ruined the quality of pitchers the most.

    The radar gun reading is the most meaningless thing you’ll encounter at a baseball stadium. It’s practically below the mid-inning trivia questions and the Subway Train Race at Yankee Stadium.

  277. Raul Says:

    There’s such an infatuation in baseball with power.
    Power hitting and power pitching.

    Ken Griffey Jr hit 630 HR and is going to the HOF, and his bombs probably went 380 feet.

    Greg Maddux won 355 games, largely on 91 mph fastballs.

    What losers. Damn shame they didn’t have Adam Dunn and Armando Benitez power.

  278. Raul Says:

    Anyone have a simulator?

    I’m curious: Who wins in a 7-game series between the 1997 Baltimore Orioles and the 1977 Pittsburgh Pirates?

  279. Chuck Says:

    Game 1: Baltimore 3 @ Pittsburgh 2, Mike Mussina over John Candelaria

    Game 2: Baltimore 10 @ Pittsburgh 4, Scott Erickson over Jerry Reuss

    Game 3: Pittsburgh 10 @ Baltimore 6, Odell Jones over Jimmy Key

    Game 4: Pittsburgh 2 @ Baltimore 4, Scott Kamienicki over Bruce Kison

    Game 5: Pittsburgh 2 @ Baltimore 8, Mike Mussina over John Candelaria

  280. brautigan Says:

    Greg Maddux had the third lowest ERA for a decade (the 1990’s) since the 1920 season (behind only Hoyt Wilhelm’s 2.16 and Sandy Koufax’s 2.36, both earned in the 1960’s). Maddux had an ERA of 2.54. Compiled in the 90’s, when Sosa and McGwire were hitting moon rockets, that is damned impressive.

    P.J. or Maddux? I’m taking Maddux. No swipe at P.J., just that I would take Maddux.

  281. brautigan Says:

    Stratomatic Chuck?

  282. Chuck Says:


  283. brautigan Says:

    Yeah, I didn’t think anyone in a strat league would have pitched Odell Jones. Well, unless it was extra innings and you ran out of eligible pitchers.

  284. Chuck Says:

    I think Whatifsports uses Stratomatic for their simulations (?), all you do is set your starters and lineup and they do the rest.

  285. Raul Says:

    4-1 Baltimore.

    I thought Pittsburgh would have put up a stronger showing.

  286. brautigan Says:

    Ok, that’s pretty cool. I have the original teams, I may be tempted to see how that series works out with me at the controls. LOL

  287. Bob Says:

    @ 270 Yup. Getz is stil;l in the league.

  288. Cameron Says:

    I wish we went back to the old method of finding out how fast pitchers were. I think it was… Bob Lemon. They find out he had a 98 MPH+ fastball by having a motorcycle drive at speed and Feller threw when the motorcycle passed and Lemon’s heater crossed the plate before the motorcycle.

  289. Cameron Says:

    You know, I hate to say it, but in light of losing Perez and Soria, I think sending down Giavotella and starting Yuni at second may be to lose as many games as possible. I think we may be playing for a draft pick this year.

  290. Chuck Says:

    The White Sox suck.

    Like bad.

    If the Royals finished last the tank would be so obvious even Selig would see it.

  291. Raul Says:


    The result is the same. It doesn’t matter how hard Feller threw.
    Coaches, teammates, opponents and scouts can all tell when a pitcher is throwing fast and when he is losing some speed.

    It just doesn’t really matter to know the exact number. If they removed the radar gun from Comerica Park, would you still be able to tell if Justin Verlander is pitching well? Of course you would.

    This infatuation with MPH just creates this myth that kids need to throw hard. It’s probably a reason why we’re seeing so many damn TJ injuries — trying to throw your max all the time. It’s not the only reason, but I bet it’s a part of it.

    Every single veteran pitcher worth a damn will tell you that while high velocity is nice, success is predicated on so many other factors. And most of those guys had to learn the hard way.

  292. Raul Says:

    KC isn’t trying to lose games.

    They’ve already got a heck of a talent pool.
    And they’ll offer Jonathan Sanchez arbitration (he’ll be 30 at the end of the season). He’ll decline, go into FA and the Royals will get a draft pick.

  293. Raul Says:

    The Mets will honor late Hall of Fame catcher Gary Carter on Opening Day, with Carter’s family participating in a pregame ceremony at Citi Field.

  294. brautigan Says:

    I bet dollars to donuts that Giovatella will be called back up before the season starts. A lot of teams do this….for what purpose, I have no idea. Maybe to get a longer look at in invitee? Who knows?

  295. Raul Says:

    Alcides Escobar and Yuniesky Betancourt.

    In history, has there ever been a middle infield tandem of such extreme opposites?

  296. Raul Says:

    Listen to Ned Yost speak about his reasons for why he sent Giavotella down.
    But more importantly, his praise for Yuniesky Betancourt — I nearly had a heart attack.

  297. John Says:

    LOL at Yuni being starting 2B. Your problem now, Cam!

    Offensively, Escobar is basically Yuni with the exception that Yuni has a little more pop and Escobar can run. If either one of them see a second pitch in an at-bat, it’s a miracle.

    At least there’s hope for Escobar, who’s still young, and might be the best defensive SS since Ozzie Smith (possible exception: Rey Ordonez? Remember him?)

  298. Chuck Says:

    Blue Jays sent down Travis Snider.

    Rangers released Conor Jackson.

  299. Raul Says:

    Snider had a good Spring. Toronto is going with Edwin Encarnacion as their DH and Eric Thames in LF.

    Snider is just a bat at this point and the Blue Jays might be smart to trade him. I mean, I get that he’s only 24, but is he ever going to crack that lineup?

  300. Raul Says:

    Rey Ordonez was fantastic defensively.
    For my money, I’d take Omar Vizquel. Consistently good every year.

    Omar will be 45 in a month and he’s still in camp with the Blue Jays…and actually hitting pretty well this Spring.

  301. brautigan Says:

    John Olerud was the New York Mets firstbaseman in 1999. The starting 2B, Edger Alonzo had 5 errors, the SS Rey Ordonez had 4, and the starting 3B Robin Ventura had 9 errors. Olerud leaves and is replaced by Todd Zeile. Alonzo has 10 errors the following season, Ventura has 17, and Ordonez has 6 in 41 games.

    Me thinks Olerud saved a lot of errors with his glove.

  302. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree with a lot of what you say Raul. But it is funny you talk about guys trying to throw to hard, & sometimes-& folks here-talk about pitchers are babied too much with pitch counts. Both things can be true. And Maddux usually did not exceed 90 MPH, though had a very good defense & got close pitches. Though Griffey could hit bombs, recall him being credited with a 507′ at a HR derby. Though those balls could have been jacked up, Thomas was credited with a 519′. But he naturally had a lot of muscle, however fat he was at whatever time.

    Some of what you say is true but does not contest what I was saying. Where could you possible think it necessafry to tell me what baseball players normally look like? i never suggested or implied they were shredded monsters”. A loyt of time is wasted when little attention is paid to the DETAILS of what the other guy said.

    That weight of Big Mac’s was at the start of his career. He was listed after juicing at 245, & many thought him bigger. Winfield’s frame was likely bigger, but I doubt the difference was that dramatic.

    You said that players need to be agile & athletic. A slugger only needs to be that athletic in a swing, & not too terrible (for MOL level) on the fields & base paths). Baseball is enervating over a season, but other sports are much more strenuous. And with knowledge of training & nutrition it is not so hard to MAINTAIN weight at least during the season.

    One also does not need to work out every day, or even more than once or twice a week, to at least maintain muscle Raul. Or brief intense workouts most days.

    Fed X & Rafa are listed as 6′1″, very lean at 187. If they made it their life’s mission, they could surely add mass, Maybe 15-20 lbs. over some years, naturally. But you are right, it would hurt them being top players.

    Yes, players are smaller due to not taking PEDs much these days. My argument was NOT what players normally are or need to be. It is that some guys, including baseball players, DO have the genetics that with the best training & nutrition over some years, they can be as big as some steroid cases. No, not Ronnie Coleman, average height & shredded at 300 lbs. But with big bone structures & the right hormonal & other genetic factors, while most guys at ~ 6′ 2″ will top out at ~220 at 15% body fat, SOME will be around 250.

    Again, I did NOT say most could. But it is not unicorn rare either, especially amongst athletes. This is just so clear if you have been around a weight room for years, observed & talked to many people.

    Most all who get that size are frauds. But some CAN get that way naturally.

  303. Mike Felber Says:

    Brautigan, unless a good amount of that 20 lbs. was from eating much more, that is, food in your system, if it was really most all muscle, NOT water, food, or fat, then you must have looked somewhat bigger, at least without clothes or a shirt on. Though take pictures of the same guy in differently fitting clothes, he will look significantly different in size.

    Most do NOT get that much bigger, since 1) classically players do not train for mass, & 2) again, a small % of guys have that huge genetic potential.

    You made no case why Mantle & Foxx would not be much bigger today, just asserted that premise. An argument you CAN make that they would not be much bigger is that they gained strength from lifting things, on the farm, Mantle breaking rocks with a sledgehammer…But not all guys who do this got 200 lbs. lean at under 6′. Both did not know or try anything to lift systematically or eat well, like adequate calories, protein…Both drank.

    Why on earth would they not be much bigger if they spent years trying, naturally, when they were so strong without really trying? Common sense says that a guy like Nomar & Anderson did not have the natural size they did. And Sosa became a monster with hard training AND must have been much ‘roids.

    Mantle & Foxx could have been around say it aint Sosa’s size naturally, if they had cared to try scientifically for years.

    Now I do not need any arguments that they would not benefit from it, why try…I am NOT saying they should have. Though better conditioning & no drinking would have prolonged their greatness past age 33, even with the injuries, & migraines of Foxx.

  304. Chuck Says:

    Indians are interested in Vladimir Guerrero.

    He worked out the other day at their camp in the Dominican and apparently they liked what they saw, so he’s heading to AZ to showcase in front of the decision makers.

  305. Raul Says:


    It’s just blatantly clear that you don’t know or have never been around baseball players.

    Do you have any idea how much time baseball players spend trying to perfect swing mechanics, learn pitch recognition, practice timing, practice defense, play in games, travel to learning clinics, practice baserunning, watching tape? Not to include all the post-game activities that go on?

    You really don’t have the slightest clue of how intensive all that stuff is. For you to think that between all that (which doesn’t even include recreation/family time), that a baseball player has time to do heavy lifting that could transform one’s body to anything that could resemble Mark McGwire’s naturally shows how incredibly naive you are.

    Take a trip to the Dominican. Go to Venezuela. Go down to Florida and track a few HS and college players. See if they have the time for all that lifting.

    Your argument seems to be that 3 or 4 hours a week of lifting weights is enough to keep 25 pounds of rock muscle throughout a 162 game season.

    Please, dude. It would be giving you too much credit to call you a liar. You simply don’t know the environment these professional players are in.

  306. Chuck Says:

    Bruce Chen v. Yovanni Gallardo today.

  307. Raul Says:

    Bruce Chen. The name alone makes me think of a 400-foot homer.

    Michael Cuddyer is 33. He was drafted 9th overall in 1997, ahead of Lance Berkman (16th).

    Buster Posey is 25. The top picks in 2008:
    1. Tim Beckham
    2. Pedro Alvareaz
    3. Eric Hosmer
    4. Brian Matusz
    5. Buster Posey
    6. Kyle Skipworth
    7. Yonder Alonso
    8. Gordon Beckham
    9. Aaron Crow
    10. Jason Castro
    11. Justin Smoak
    12. Jemile Weeks
    13. Brett Wallace
    14. Aaron Hicks
    15. Ethan Martin
    16. Brett Lawrie

    Anyone thinks Bryce Harper cracks that list?

  308. Chuck Says:


  309. Bob Says:

    Actually, if you did it over again,

    1. Posey, assuming he was healthy and playing a premium position.
    2. Hosmer. A sleeper pick for MVP.
    3. Harper

  310. Bob Says:

    The Yankees released Preston Mattingly.

  311. Raul Says:

    Preston Mattingly stinks, that’s why.

  312. Bob Says:

    Fair enough.

  313. Raul Says:

    Doesn’t it seem like the better an athlete is, the worse his children are?

    Maybe a superstar athlete is well-off and they coddle their children? I dunno, man.

    Pete Rose Jr., Tony Pena Jr. and Preston Mattingly are awful.

  314. Mike Felber Says:

    To much credit to call a liar? Why that man insult Raul? Lying would be unethical & sad. Your comment is not much better.

    Now you are PARTLY right, but it does not effect my argument. I have not spend that much time around ballplayers in training. But I have spoken to & heard from some, & nothing you write is at all new information for me.

    What you show is minimal knowledge about what effort is needed to build & maintain muscle. Recall I did not argue they SHOULD go to that point, & folks vary greatly as to how it effects their game. And depending upon defensive demands & natural strengths, AND trying out different things one will decide how much to do.

    But it is just completely wrong that anyone needs all those hours to gain mass. And I was discussing those with OUTLIER potential, & it is clear that some Professional athletes especially have it.

    For those with the potential, diligence, eating correctly & great trainers, or most of those things, some CAN & DO get Big Mac size naturally. To think otherwise shows you know little about the subject: I could inundate you with endless information on the Internet, or have gym buddies post.

    A well done intense 45 minute total program is more or less what is recommended, & 3 or 4 X a week is plenty. I like to come in less often & tarry, BS, but while there may be some utility to longer bouts, it is at best diminishing returns.

    You would be Incredibly Cynical to not believe the reports of many folks in many sports & “civilians” that some get huge with these kinds of efforts. They are all liars, all folks observed to get these results are lying or cannot do basic observation correctly?

    Nope you just do not know at all & are applying a broad sterotype to cover ALL who lift naturally.

  315. Bob Says:

    Well, let’s take a somewhat deeper look.

    1. Griffey Jr. beats his dad.
    2. Tim Raines beats his son.
    3. Prince Fielder should beat his dad.
    4. Jesse Barfield beats his son.
    5. Will do more research later.

  316. Raul Says:

    “But it is completely wrong that anyone needs all that time to build mass”

    No, it isn’t.
    To put on 5 pounds of muscle in a year is incredibly difficult. To pack on 15-20 is unheard of. To pack on 15-20 pounds of muscle to an already-active athlete is not possible without artificial help.

  317. Mike Felber Says:

    You are completely & utterly mistaken Raul. I can send you links, but ANY real research you do will show you how you are misinformed about NATURAL potential.

    1) It depends on where you are starting from. Recall that many “active athletes” are highly skilled & fit, but that does not mean that they have anywhere near approached their max. potential for mass.

    2) Naturally, folks starting out with LARGE potential can put on 2 lbs. a month, for 6-12 months. If they lift effectively, hard & consistently, there progress then slows & within 4 or so years they have put on most of their potential muscle. Though most do lifting in fits & starts, not one unrelenting effort, so it takes somewhat longer to max out.

    3) You will say yes, but these guys are not starting out skinny…usually so. But if a guy is not pushing his size & strength potential, & has even 1/2 way decent genetics, 5 lbs a year is not REMOTELY “incredibly difficult”! For Bonds he would not have added all that mass in his mid 30’s, given his structure & genetics, & he was already 8% body fat at 206.

    For OTHER guys they could go much further.

    And recall that guys can also do much more in the off season. That MANY drugged to get huge does not mean some cannot do so, even if it takes them longer, naturally.

    You have not read much of anything about it, have not hung around gyms & questioned dozens of guys & observed folks, you just do not know.

  318. Bob Says:

    Mike, did you read post 316? This claim especially. “To pack on 15-20 pounds of muscle to an already active frame is not possible, without artificial help.
    Raul is correct.

    1. Point one you say it depends where tou are starting from. Raul started woth an active frame.
    2.Folks starting out can add 2 pounds a monthfor a half-year or longer. Fine, but the guy with an active frame is not starting out.
    3. After youtubing API baseball training, i realized that lifting is not a core excercise for many players, although they do a bit of it. For these purposes, I will define lifting as’
    1. Bench pressing
    2. Military press
    3. Curls

  319. Raul Says:


    Please realize that a gym rat is not the same as a professional athlete. What Jersey Shore Jimmy can gain in his 10 hours per week at the gym is completely irrelevant to a professional baseball player.

  320. Raul Says:

    You’re an older guy, Mike.

    It’d be tougher for you to pack on muscle at this point. But I would bet you a beer that you could work out 10 hours a week for the next 2 years and you won’t gain 10 pounds of muscle the way these juiced up athletes gained in 1 winter.

    Hell, Buster Posey is 25 and I guarantee you between now and his age 35 season, he won’t gain 10 pounds of muscle.

    Neither will Giancarlo Stanton. And he’s 22.

  321. Raul Says:

    So it turns out Matt Bush had a suspended license when he got into the hit-and-run last week.

    Rays Vice President Andrew Friedman says Bush won’t be playing for the team again.

  322. Raul Says:

    Drew Pomeranz has been one of the Rockies’ more unhittable pitchers this spring, as is the ancient Jamie Moyer.

    Out in Cleveland, Ubaldo Jimenez continues to get slapped around.

    The Indians got fleeced in that deal.

  323. Cameron Says:

    @313 I dunno, Tony Gwynn Jr. is able to hold down a starting job and the Hairston brothers aren’t half-bad. Robinson Cano is FAR better than his dad, too.

  324. Bob Says:

    And in football, both Mannings are better than dad. Although Tony Gwynn Jr. is not close to his father.

  325. Raul Says:

    Keep in mind that regarding Manning…both Eli and Peyton play in an era where the rules are tipped to protect Quarterbacks and allow Receivers a type of freedom never before seen in NFL history.

    None of the Hairstons are what I’d call “good”.
    And Robinson Cano just proves the theory. If Jose Cano was a 9-time All Star, Robinson would have probably been a 4-year platoon guy.

  326. John Says:

    @325 is valid, however, it’s not even close between Archie and his sons.

    I mean, Archie was 35-101 all-time. He had a 67.1 career passer rating. He threw 50 more interceptions than TD’s for his career. I’m sure he played on some really crappy Saints teams, but come on.

  327. Raul Says:

    Even if I grant you Griffey Jr and the Mannings…..exceptions to the rule, my friend.

  328. John Says:

    “If Jose Cano was a 9-time All Star, Robinson would have probably been a 4-year platoon guy.”


    Bobby Bonds was a 3-time all-star, 2-time top-4 MVP dude with a pretty freaking outstanding career. I would say his son did alright.

    Ken Griffey Sr. was a 3-time all-star who retired just shy of .300. His son wasn’t too shabby either.

    Ray Boone was a 2-time all-star who hit 20+ HR’s four straight years. Bob Boone was a 4-time all-star and 7-time gold glove winner. Both his sons were all-stars.

  329. John Says:

    Moises was the best of the Alou’s.

  330. John Says:

    Both of Sandy Alomar Jr’s sons were better than him.

  331. John Says:


  332. Raul Says:


    Now go ahead and name the loser kids. Can’t?
    Cuz you never heard of them?

  333. John Says:

    I’m not seeing your point at all.

    People as a whole are very unlikely to reach the Major Leagues, period. Even those with great genes.

    You act like it’s terrible parenting that every big league star doesn’t likewise begat a big league star.

  334. Raul Says:

    No John.

    It was a joking comment that the bigger the success of a player, the less success his kid seems likely to have.

    So if Ken Griffey Sr was a super star, chances are Jr would have been a scrub. Well, they were both good, so that’s the exception.

    If you have a former Major Leaguer who was a scrub — like Jose Cano…well, chances are that Robinson Cano would be quite good.

    Is this really a serious theory? Of course not. Don’t be so goddamn silly.
    This isn’t Fox News.

  335. Cameron Says:

    Though Raul, this actually does sound like the makings of an interesting article.

  336. John Says:

    Fair enough. Read too much into comment 313.

  337. Raul Says:

    Not counting today, Braun is 3 for 25.
    Not concerned at all, eh John?

  338. Raul Says:

    Hosmer hit 2 homers today.

  339. John Says:

    @337, I am not.

    Because it’s Spring Training.

  340. Raul Says:

    Just making sure.

  341. Raul Says:

    How often does someone cover Hall & Oates?


    I just about died at 2:58

  342. Chuck Says:

    You crack me up, Bob.

    The 2008 draft wasn’t all that deep, and even with that, no effin’ way Harper cracks the top five, maybe eight.


  343. Chuck Says:

    Can’t really talk about the game because I was working, but check out the boxscore of the Royals game today.

    Check out Gallardo’s line.

    Hey, Cam, newsflash for you, bro.

    Gallardo can’t carry Greinke’s jock.

    Hosmer’s first homer was on a high fastball and went 450 MINIMUM to RF.

    Fucking BOMB!!!!!

  344. Chuck Says:

    Weightlifters/bodybuilders are not athletes.

    If they were, they wouldn’t be weightlifters/bodybuilders.

    Take a six foot, 245 pound Mr. America, ripped to the gills, and a six foot, 185 pound hockey player, ripped to the gills.

    The hockey player would beat the living snot out of the bodybuilder.

    Two reasons;

    a) again, bodybuilders aren’t athletes, and;

    b) flexibility and agility

    Where I come from there was an old saying..”B I G don’t spell B A D.”

  345. Chuck Says:

    “Bobby Bonds was a 3-time all-star, 2-time top-4 MVP dude with a pretty freaking outstanding career. I would say his son did alright.”

    Bobby Jr?

  346. Chuck Says:

    ‘Moises was the best of the Alou’s.”


    He was third, at best, and that was WITH steriods.

    Moises is famous for three reasons;

    His last name.


    Steve Bartman.

    Take those three away, and he’s Koby Clemens.

  347. Chuck Says:

    OK, I’m about to show my age here.

    (Help me out, Braut)

    Happy 81st birthday, David Janssen.

    Janssen played the title character in the 1963-1967 TV show, “The Fugitive.”

    It was remade into a popular movie a few years ago starring Tommy Lee Jones and, I think, Harrison Ford.

    My parents used to watch these popular shows, Gunsmoke, Dragnet, 60 Minutes, some of the old variety shows, Bonanza, etc.

    I was never interested, but my Mom told me I would never miss the Fugitive.

    I obviously didn’t remember, but every time it’s on TVLand now, I always watch, and I could never understand why. It came up during dinner one night when my parents were out for vacation and she told me.

    Janssen died of a heart attack in 1980 at age 48, two days after having a dream he died of a heart attack.

    He was part of the “Rat Pack” gang in the ’60’s, hanging out with guys like Clint Eastwood and James Coburn, and was a legendary drinker.

    He got sober after getting remarried in 1975 and by all accounts was healthy and happy and working steadily when he died.

  348. Cameron Says:

    The Fugitive, Gunsmoke, Dragnet, all stuff I really like actually. When it comes to a lot of things, I actually tend to skew far older than I actually am.

  349. Mike Felber Says:

    And we are not lacking for H & O covers! Cute girl, but besides the lines…It’s so eaeaeasy—to hurt others when you can’t feel free! I do not mind if their cannon remains untouched.

    Some weightlifters especially are athletes Chuck. Like a lot of things, you take a stereotype with some truth & overgeneralize. Even some bodybuilders were successful athletes, but did better with lifting, sometimes after an injury.

    Your dream fight? It is unclear who would win. Also depends if Mr. America had fight training, &^ if the hockey dude had a fighting role/experience. Some large lifters are flexible & agile, though sure, most not so much. Though the greater strength & weight would be more of an advantage in wrestling.

  350. Mike Felber Says:

    Bob, the term “active frame” is pretty much incredibly vague. I was saying that tons of guys are very active, highly athletic, in great cardiovascular condition: but that established nothing regarding how much muscle they have or can add. The goal of many athletes & sports are different.

    Of course I read that post, I referenced it, & I am very precise, dismapyed when others are not. See, a guy can even be LIFTING for years, but even if he tries & knows what he is doing, he may want to & be wise to or it does not matter if…He is strong for his size, flexible, has explosiveness: but does not even TRY to get very big & have max. absolute strength.

    So these guys, even with typical genetics can add significant bulk if done right over time, training & nutrition.

    Though with respect, the way you define lifting betrays a limited knowlege of what maximizes overall strength. You reference the most common lifts boys no & get obsessed with, only for upper body, only for the FRONT of the body, the “beach muscles” that show off. Military presses do not hit as much mass as the big core exercises like compound back movements, like rows, & squats, dead lifts, even leg presses do much more for overall size & strength. Curls hit a small muscle that is already hit well with heavy pulls (back) work.

    You CANNOT just say X guy has been lifting for X time, he is near maxed out. Really? What are his genetics? Even if average, how effective is his training & eating? Even if effective, HAS he been specifically lifting for bulk & max. strength?

    Did you know even a natural body builder who is maxed out of mass likely can add to his limit (1 rep max) ability significantly, if he starts training for it & never had before? Things like very low reps & singles, speed training (fast with relatively light weights), bands & chains to work on sticking points…

  351. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, you havea partial understanding of lifting capacities.

    Jersey shore guys I think are often juiced, right? But if a pro athlete works out 3-4 hours a week & is NOT near maxed out, he can gain well. The question is what are his genetics, effort, science of program, & nutrition.

    Take Brady Anderson & Nomar. 6′ & 6′1″, both built up to very lean at 190. Can the AVERAGE Joe get there, clean? YES, if they do it hard & correctly for years. But Brady did it quicker & the easy way, right?

    Now those who get the size of the Bash Brothers (I mean Big Mac when ‘roided up), THAT is an uncommon thing for any natural guy. But some CAN get there with years of natural training. Not me, not you, but while a small %, not so rare for professional athletes. Still not common.

  352. Mike Felber Says:

    I am GLAD you brought up #320 Raul, it is very instructive!

    I am approaching 47. It has got to be harder for me to gain muscle, but there is one condition that is largely an exception: regaining mass I have LOST.

    I would lose that bet now if I took it. Because I am now close to my old max, about a couple of reps (with same weight) from where I was at best. Age is a smaller factor than that for upper body at least, I am approaching my potential.

    But if you asked me that, say, in September, you would be very wrong about my capacities, ust due to where I was STARTING from. I had again lost weight & muscle before my summer arts festival/magazine, started gaining some back, & a month & a 1/2 later was the sickest I have ever been, pneumonia (1st time) & asthma, so lost significant weight & strength, did not eat much. Since then, I have certainly gained fat, but surely the better part of 10 lbs of muscle. It has memory, it is MUCH easier to regain than if you never had it.

    Chuck saw a video & said it looked like I was not at the gym recently. It was from May ‘10 festival, I posted one from 8 months before. I can link ‘em for you, besides my hair & beard was wild when “skinny” (still 210 unclothed), I was about 30 lbs. heavier, fat & muscle, in the earlier one. And look like that now, same strength, just slightly less “fat”!

    So much depends on PARTICULARS of genetics, what one has done, how effectively, what their goals are.


  353. Mike Felber Says:

    Posey & Stanton? What guys will & COULD do is very different. If they are not very gig now, they likely could gain that 10 lbs. of pure muscle well within those time frames. If they cared to. Which of course is utterly different from a winder of juicing & lifting.

  354. Raul Says:

    Dodgers sell for 2 billion.

  355. Cameron Says:

    And the bidding winners… The Magic Johnson/Stan Kansten Group. Niiice.

  356. Bob Says:

    1. The Mariners won.
    2. The Yankees signed Jack Cust.

  357. Chuck Says:

    Cust is from New Jersey.

    Maybe the Yanks will have him DH for Trenton.

    Greinke going today against Dbacks.

  358. brautigan Says:

    Opening day at 3 AM in Tokyo on March 28th.

    I fucking hate Bud Selig. This is a travesty.

  359. Raul Says:

    So my draft for my fantasy team happened last night.
    And my team is…well I was disappointed with my draft.

    But I should note that part of it was not my fault. A number of players were not available in our draft due to Commissioner error, or ESPN error. We aren’t sure.

    A number of players couldn’t be found: Andrew McCutchen, Adam Dunn, Yoenis Cespedes, Ryan Braun, Jacoby Ellsbury, etc…

    That said, here’s my team (pending the resolution of the missing players):

    C – JP Arencibia
    1B – Albert Pujols
    2B – Ben Zobrist
    SS – Elvis Andrus
    3B – Ryan Roberts
    OF – Andre Ethier
    OF – Ryan Raburn
    OF – Lance Berkman
    DH – Billy Butler
    UTIL – Eric Hosmer
    BN – Travis Hafner
    BN – Will Venable
    BN – Stephen Drew

    SP – Clayton Kershaw
    SP – Zack Grienke
    SP – Ricky Romero
    SP – Jamie Garcia

    P – Mike Minor

    RP – Heath Bell
    RP – Jason Motte
    RP – Javy Guerra
    RP – Greg Holland

    BN – Phil Hughes
    BN – Ryan Vogelsong

    I want more OF help and a number of missing players really hurt me there. I also wanted better options than Ryan Raburn and Ryan Roberts…but I think they can be reasonably valuable.

    Sometimes in drafts, you can’t always stick to game plan. A certain position can be gone within a few picks and you have to adjust.

    I got Phil Hughes in the 19th round of 24.
    Stephen Drew was taken in the final round.

    One guy took Brett Lawrie in the 5th round. I think Lawrie will be good, but I wouldn’t have taken him that early.

  360. Mike Felber Says:

    I see there is no factual disagreement with the details & claims of what I showed. That is because there was a limited knowledge of the specifics of weigh training, & a broad, stereotyped set of assumed beliefs about potential, absent examining specifics about potential of men at different stages & situations.

    Assuming a meme about what is possible for all, regardless of individual variation, some taking years to get naturally to a level where others lift briefly, intensely & juice, was always foolhardy.

    Again, you cannot know for sure by just looking, It is unscientific, undiscerning, & also deeply unfair to those who got there honestly.

    Now at the extremes-NONE of which we have ever seen in baseball-like so many pro body builders shredded at under 6′ & approaching 300 lbs, Coleman at 300: THEN you can say almost surely guys were using PEDs, & heavy.

    But all you can say about a guy (usually well over 6′) & pretty lean ~ 250, is that the statistical ODDS are that he has used, since MOST do not have the genetics to ever get there naturally over the years.

    If he got much bigger very QUICKLY after already being fairly big, not JUST leanly muscled/pretty strong, then it is LIKELY that it was not merely the best trainers, nutrition, & effort in the off season.

  361. Cameron Says:

    I found Ken Burns’ Baseball on the roomie’s Netflix. Gonna see how far I can get into it today. I’ve never been able to sit down and watch it without commercial interruptions and go through the whole thing. Also, it’ll be the first time I see the Tenth Inning postscript. I’m excited.

  362. Raul Says:

    Mike, no one is responding because it’s a dead issue.

    What a weight trainer with little history of physical activity can gain and maintain, has nothing to do with what a professional baseball player does.

    Giancarlo Stanton is listed at 6′5, 235 pounds and he’s 22 years old.
    Buster Posey is listed at 6′1, 220 pounds (probably exagerrating his weight).

    There’s no way Stanton lifts weights naturally and gets up to 255-260 pounds.

    Posey is probably closer to 205 though it’s possible he’s close to 220 and the weight is bottom-heavy.

    Stanton doesn’t have the frame to add 20 pounds of muscle naturally.
    Posey could add muscle on his upper body, but not much, because his frame and bodytype wouldn’t support 20 pounds. He’s a wiry guy — much like Mark McGwire was, if you ever took a moment to actually see what he looked like.

    I mentioned Dave Winfield earlier. Go ahead and look at pics of Dave Winfield for his career. And compare them to early shots of Mark McGwire. Same frame. Same bodytype, with Winfield having slightly broader shoulders.

    Winfield has been retired for 17 years now, and probably still isn’t as heavy as McGwire was in his prime.

    You keep trying to make this argument that it’s “possible” for an active Major Leaguer to pack on 20 pounds of muscle. It’s only possible in the sense that a 25-year old, 160-pound Pedro Martinez could gain 20 pounds of muscle if he took 3 years off baseball, worked out nonstop and decided to return as a 3rd baseman.

    It’s a completely bullsh*t argument and you’re getting nowhere with it.

  363. Cameron Says:

    Raul, Stanton could get to 260. …He ain’t gonna do it on a ballplayer’s schedule, though.

  364. Raul Says:

    If Stanton ever got to 260, he’d be playing for the Miami Dolphins.
    Not the Miami Marlins.

  365. Raul Says:

    We are 7 days from Opening Day.

  366. Cameron Says:

    The Dolphins could use a quarterback. Maybe he should get on that.

  367. Raul Says:

    Happy 39th birthday, Paul Wilson! One of the Mets’ “Generation K”, Wilson’s career never did materialize into much as he battled injuries. He pitched 7 years and was out of baseball by age 32. I don’t remember much about Wilson. Wasn’t he a young flamethrower?

    Happy 59th birthday, Glenn Davis. A 10-year veteran with Houston and Baltimore, Davis had some solid seasons hitting in the Astrodome in the mid-1980s. Injuries would cause him to miss games and hurt his performance over the years. He’s best known for being traded from Houston to Baltimore for Curt Schilling, Steve Finley and Pete Harnisch. While each of those players would ultimately have their best seasons outside of Houston, the trade went down as one of the worst in recent memory for Baltimore.

    Happy 31st birthday, Edwar Ramirez. No one remembers you, but as a Yankees fan, I do. Ramirez was known as a pitcher with little velocity but a fantastic change-up. Problem is, he usually topped out around 87 mph and after some early success, started getting crushed by Major Leaguers everywhere. Still, he did have a 10.4 K/9 in his short career.

  368. John Says:

    Gallardo can’t carry Greinke’s jock.

    I agree.

    Gallardo won’t be a premium pitcher until he can get through 5 innings in under 90 pitches on a consistent basis. He basically always fails to do this.

    Is he good? Absolutely. Gutsy pitcher, a fighter – if he were a white guy, the pundits would call him a “gamer.”

    Last year, we saw Greinke at his worst (coming off an injury) and Gallardo at his best – and they put up pretty similar numbers.

    Gallardo certainly has the stuff to dominate, but he throws too many balls, gets behind too often, and racks up far too many crooked numbers on the pitch-count column.

  369. Raul Says:

    Gallardo is a guy that could be helped out a lot by talking to some successful “control” pitchers.

    He does have great stuff. If he can learn to throw to the glove, instead of trying to blow guys away and get insane break on his pitches, he could take the step to the next level.

  370. Cameron Says:

    Gallardo’s curveball makes me feel sorry for Miller Park’s groundskeeper.

  371. brautigan Says:

    The Fugitive? I remember watching that as a kid. I have a 1965 tv guide with David Janssen on the cover laying around somewhere.

    I do recall that the last episode of the Fugitive was the highest watched tv show until “Mash”’s last episode. (I think…memory is a little hazy).

  372. Raul Says:

    Short of throwing it to Delmon Young, a curveball that hits the ground isn’t all that fantastic.

    You’ve got to be able to throw it for strikes.
    A curveball for a strike is a heck of a weapon – especially if you can use it to get ahead in the count.

    Start a guy off to an 0-1 hole with a curveball, and you can throw anything.
    I’m sure a lot of people would disagree with me but I think a good curveball can set up the fastball. Yeah, fastballs generally set the tone but if a pitcher can get a curveball in for a strike (let’s say dropping one on the outside corner to go up 1-2)…then you can go backdoor slider/fastball…waste pitch up-and-in….lots of things.

    AJ Burnett has a great curve. But in my opinion, it wasn’t as successful because he couldn’t locate the fastball …AND…when he did throw the curve, it was usually out of the zone as an out-pitch. I really didn’t see him use the curve to get ahead. He tried, but the damn thing would always fall outside the zone. Either that, or he’d hang it.

  373. Cameron Says:

    Big breaks are bad for curves if you ask me. You need tight breaks, stuff that falls off on the way to the plate, not the fucking catapult Gallardo has that breaks as soon as it leaves his hand.

  374. Raul Says:

    A big break is good, Cam.

    But like anything regarding pitching, you’re not maximizing its potential if you can’t locate it.

  375. Raul Says:

    Ever seen videos of Dwight Gooden pitching?
    His curveball was fantastic.

  376. Cameron Says:

    I was using big break loosely. Ideally your biggest break should be your curve, but not to the point where you can’t rely on it. If your curve is ending up in the dirt routinely, it’s too big. To me, it needs to be reliable, and I think the tightness is more important. Have the break be sudden as it can be and make sure you can throw it for strikes, not just have it be a pitch you get guys to chase.

    And I have seen Doc K’s curve. It is a thing of beauty.

  377. John Says:

    Greinke just doubled in a run. On the mound, he’s surrendered 4 hits and a run through 5, with 5 K’s and 0 walks.

    For Spring Training, he’s struck out 25 of the 65 batters he’s faced, with just 1 walk.

  378. Raul Says:

    Let’s just make sure he doesn’t make a jerk out of me for drafting him in the 3rd round yesterday.

  379. Cameron Says:

    Going out on a limb… There will be no World Series in 2084.

  380. Raul Says:

    Dynamite job, Nostradamus.

  381. Bob Says:

    Cam, did you just read “1984″?

  382. Cameron Says:

    Nope, just simple math. No World Series in 1904, next missed series was 1994, pattern dictates the next missed series is 2084.

    Good news for us, we’ll all be dead by then.

  383. Bob Says:


  384. Mike Felber Says:

    You responded Bob. And like most others, you are not paying attention to details.

    1) Why assume I did not look at Big Mac young? I am the one who corrected raul on his weight, said that was early in his career, & also specified re: the bash brothers comment a distinction between early & late build.

    2) You assessment of Winfield’s natural build clashes with Raul’s. Yours maybe closer to the truth.

    3) I made no claim of how much those 2 guys, Posey & stanton, could gain, not knowing their sizes. You MAY be right about them, but I do not know, & if you are right about his frame. But: folks often see “frame” as based upon current muscle, not actual thickness & width of bone structure. Lou Ferrigno was 6′ 5″ & skinny as a young teenager. Taller guys tend to look wiry due to length.

    4) Whether my argument is accepted by you or not does not mean it is true or not. All arguing with me, certainly you, know little academically or in terms of experience & observation about lifting. Nor are you countering my specific facts.

    5) Pedro is ONE particular guy. He added some strength once, he is not naturally bulky, though there is no reason a 5′ 11″160 lb. guy cannot get to 180 of muscle, absent particularly poor genetics, IF he wanted too & spent time doing so.

    He could be a pitcher, gain in the off season & maintain during the season. That would be the easiest way to do it.

    6) I do not keep trying to maintain something about an active ML guy, WITHOUT qualifying where he is at to start with! Guys in the NBA & most other sports are far more “active” during games & in training, & you are deluded if you believe all of the horses there are using PEDs-which would be a radical & unsupported idea-or that they are so very different than MLB guys genetically.

    The increase from fairly skinny top pretty muscular in that sport was overwhelmingly a matter of training.

    7) The idea that a guy will not get to a certain weight on a baseball player’s schedule is laughable. If they trained & ate right, of course you can & tons of much more active folks can. HOW big depends upon training efficiency, eating efficiency, & genetics. And if you drug yourself to a fare thee well!

    8) I already stated how Big Mac was heavier than Winfield. How heavy Winfield is now is meaningless, since it is the rare athlete who does not lose at least some muscle later, & they/we tend to put on significant fat. So raw weight without qualifying body fat means nothing.

    Too guys at 175, even at the same height & bone structure, one can be overweight, the other lean & muscular. Same for, say, 225.

  385. Raul Says:

    We’re going in circles, Mike.

    Your argument isn’t relevant to baseball players in any way.
    To say that no one is arguing with your premises assumes that your premises are even relevant to begin with.

    That’s the problem and it’s why you aren’t understanding the main point.

    Baseball players talents will hit peaks and valleys throughout their careers. But by and large, physiques do not change very much upon reaching the Major League level. There’s a difference between a guy “filling out” and a guy completely changing his body structure and adding massive amounts of muscle.

    That’s a fact of the sport over the last 125 years.

    Nothing you say about any miniscule outliers is relevant.

    When a person or scout sees an early-20s Mark McGwire and Jeff Bagwell as thin and scrawny players, and a few years later sees them 25 pounds heavier with massive power (and a pattern of injury, mind you), it’s abundantly clear what has happened.

    That’s not good enough for you? Well, then you’re just further proving that you don’t know what you’re talking about and cementing your status as perhaps the most incredibly naive fan in the history of sports.

    It’s like the scene in Casino where De Niro fires the cowboy because 3 jackpots went off in succession. Obviously someone rigged the machines. The odds of that happening are in the millions. It does not happen.

    If you can’t see that McGwire and Bagwell were juicers, you’re too stupid to be a fan. And if you can see it, then you’re just being a douchebag by refusing to acknowledge it.

    Either way, you’re out.

  386. Raul Says:

    Omar Vizquel made the Blue Jays roster.

  387. Chuck Says:

    “Too guys at 175, even at the same height & bone structure, one can be overweight, the other lean & muscular.”

    Which is EXACTLY the reason why BMI is bullshit.

  388. Chuck Says:

    Greinke was dominant today..not so much as last time, but he was making the Dbacks guys look silly.

    Gave up hits to two of the first three batters, then just two more for the next seven innings.

    He is so fun to watch.

    Aroldis Chapman on my schedule tomorrow.

  389. Raul Says:

    I’m taking the Over on 3 walks for Chapman tomorrow.

  390. Raul Says:

    Less than week away from Opening Day and not a single article on potential MVPs and Cy Youngs.


  391. Mike Felber Says:

    Yup, BMI is senseless, it applies to most, but it is undiscerning, & especially often is inaccurate for men.

    Raul, what are we gonna do with you? perhaps you meant out in an ironic baseball sense, not with a petty ostracizing intent. But you regressed from calling my super naive, to considering I am not sincere/”a douche”. Without cause.

    Many, maybe most, folks either do not believe Baggy juiced, or reserve judgement since there is NO good evidence. if you insist that they are all not only likely wrong, but must be douches or insanely naive, then you are rendering an incredibly cynical & patronizing conclusion absent cause.

    Where you went wrong. And this time if you disagree with me I DIRECTLY CHALLENGE you to read the literature about weight training, or ask me for sources.

    1) Unaddressed: in many sports like basketball that are more enervating than baseball, in training & the game, players are from muscular to heavily muscled. Naturally.

    2) Folks can easily maintain during the season, at least, & gain mass in the off season.

    3) You overstate the case that Big Mac & Bagwell were “scrawny”. They were low body fat, almost certainly at least stronger than the average man, but without a lot of muscle for their height.

    4) Going from “scrawny” to 25 lbs. heavier in a few years is NOT REMOTELY unusual! Even if it is all muscle-& usually at least a little fat is added-THERE IS NO WEIGHT TRAINER IN THE WORLD who will say even an AVERAGE guy cannot go from scrawny to 25 lbs. of muscle in “a few years”. With hard, efficient training & proper nutrition.

    5) It is hard work, & you need to do it correctly & diligently, but let me repeat for effect: IT. IS. Clearly. Within Reach. For even a genetically AVERAGE man.

    6) The pattern of injury for Big mac was suspicious. but some get these injuries naturally, & Baggy’s shoulder injury was not such a stereotypical ‘roid one. Anyway if you think baseball alone is so enervating, surely you know that heavy lifting too can cause injuries. Schmidt tore a pectoral muscle off the bone with a swing, some folks have heavy acne, this is not good evidence.

    7) What YOU write in not relevant Raul. I AGREE that ballplayers have not had great variations in physiques: for the MOST PART. But my ARGUMENT is two fold:

    A) With the determined & scientific weightlifting that folks do, some players will get bulkier than ever before naturally. Where previously a Mantle level bulk was about the max, & Big Klu an outlier, some will exceed that now.

    B) You cannot redefine the debate now. My main point was that these type of guys will be the outliers IF they lift & eat right for years.

    Too stupid to be a fan should be beneath you Raul. That is not an actual fact or argument, it is merely an insult.

  392. Raul Says:

    No good evidence?

    Dude, you just admitted that you didn’t believe McGwire juiced until he spoke before Congress.

    That it took something so meaningless as his Congressional appearance for you to finally realize he was juicing proves that what you consider “good evidence” is completely batshit out of the ordinary.

    That’s not offensive. That’s reality.

  393. Mike Felber Says:

    Lastly, I want to reiterate without reciprocal conduct how there is NO DEBATE anywhere in the informal or academic weight training facility that:

    1) Folks can go from scrawny to 25 lbs. of muscle, mostly or even all, in “a few years”. None, Nada. Zippo. Ever.

    2) That sports experts would laugh at the idea that ball players cannot naturally gain & maintain this amount in an off & on season cycle, & do it in more physically demanding sports all the time.

    A typical web site which describes AVERAGE guys natural genetic potential, or this one that surveys a bunch of experts, will describe an average potential of around 40-50 lbs. of muscle as potential over a lifting career. That is starting from fairly “scrawny”. And IF a guy does it systematically & effectively, he can add this in around 4 years.

    Though few are so efficient & relentless, most proceed in stops & starts. READ some of this to confirm, it checks out against lived experience & observation. And the height/weigh potentials on the charts are at a very low body fat & AVERAGE bone structure only.

    Read & learn. If you have no evidence to the contrary, or no evidence for the extraordinary claim that ballplayers cannot do this while other athletes can & DO, (that they usually do not choose I specified & is totally beside the point):

    Then forget arguing it, because what players have usually done, what is best from them is repeatedly, explicitly, NOT being contested.

  394. Raul Says:

    It’s practically comical what you consider “no good evidence”

    It’s funny to me that you’re an atheist, since the way you go about this steroid business, it’s almost as if you are treating this like Bertrand’s Teapot theory in reverse.

  395. Cameron Says:

    Lol, the BMI’s using standards developed for a largely different genetic makeup of people in another country over a century ago. It’s the equivalent of measuring football statistics in centimeters and not yards.

  396. Mike Felber Says:

    Kudos for the reference Raul. I have heard many similar arguments, but do not recall that one.

    But on the actual argument, you advance nothing but unsupported premises in response to many particular & elaborated upon claims. The teapot issue involves mere claims, which is what you are doing.

    Scientifically, we must look at ALL possible reasons why something happens, & establish likely causation. You have not even the start of an argument that going from scrawny to 25 lbs. of muscle in a few years is not very possible for the genetically average man or ball player. Which is HIGHLY different from an already fairly muscular man adding 15 lbs. or so in a few months.

    The injuries also were suggestive in Big Mac’s case, not definitive. Recall I never said he did not use, just that some do get that size in a few years naturally, & I have known some. Though his arms were the relatively biggest part of him…

    If you are at all open minded, READ the above link, just that 1 page, & learn. Then see if you have any possible objection to what these many authorities claim from years of study & observation! I just added a comment there too.

  397. Mike Felber Says:

    What is the genetic discrepancy Cam? The biggest problem is it does not account for variations of muscle mass, both little & large amounts, & secondarily does not consider bone structure. Smaller factors like how much food is in the system queer it too. It thus is inaccurate for many in terms of body fat %. But body fat %, especially as most males gain it (around the midsection), is highly correlated with many health risks, heart disease, stroke, diabetes, certain forms of cancer, etc. Though how (significantly) active you are counts too.

    I am overweight, 10% is likely right about true, about 23 lbs. Though BMI has me shading over into obese, which is not correct, since it takes no account of LBM (lean body mass), & makes no reasonable estimate of real body fat.

  398. Cameron Says:

    I believe it was developed for turn of the 20th century Belgians, Mike.

  399. Chuck Says:

    Despite your own perceived knowledge on the process Mike, what you have failed to either see or acknowledge through this seemingly endless tirade is baseball players weight train differently than bodybuilders. Or even the casual gym rat.

    Bulk for sports is bad.

    For a guy like Bonds, who in reality was about 6′1″ 180, to go to 240 while increasing performance is about as red a flag as you can get.

    I’m 5′10″ and about 195, I’m fat, old and out of shape and have had a desk job for 16 years. I get gassed walking the dog.

    And yet I’m only about 25 pounds over my college playing weight.

    If I did weights three times a week and cardio three days a week, even recreationally, I’d likely be in the 180 body fat would be much less obviously but I wouldn’t be lifting for bulk, nor would I be lifting enough to achieve bulk.

    The only way to accomplish 50 pound of bulk over such a short period as Bonds did AND still do the cardio and other workouts required would be with “help.”

    That, my friend, is an undeniable fact.

    You’re arguing with baseball players here.

    WE know what the deal is.

    Advice..quit while you’re ahead.

    Too late now, obviously, but for the future, remember your audience.

  400. Bob Says:

    Mike, just making sure, when did I make any clains about Dave Winfield’s ability?
    And when did I claim nobody responded, although Raul was referencing posts 350-352 and post 360.
    Seriously, if I make it into Port Authority some weekend now that the weather should change, the soup, salad and some entree are on me me. And I would advise having 1 a;cohol-based drink.

  401. Mike Felber Says:

    LOL! Bob, thank you, it would be great to meet you, & I live 10 blocks up from the back of Poert Authority.

    But I did not say anything about you describing Winfield’s ability. Alcohol clouds the senses (though in small amounts seems good for folks), but I never liked it. I could easily say you have been drinking. What I wrote in one exceedingly clear sentence & paragraph:

    2) You assessment of Winfield’s natural build clashes with Raul’s. Yours maybe closer to the truth.

    About the nobody responded: that did not suggest you said this, Raul did, so I segued into my comment to you by referencing Raul’s erroneous claim. I merely said “you responded Bob”.

    Time for the virgin drinks ! ;-)

  402. Raul Says:

    Happy 28th birthday, Kila Ka’aihue! The Hawaiian power threat still isn’t as good as the great Benny Agbayani. And his name isn’t as awesome as former Pittsburgh Steeler, Chris Fuamatu Ma’Afala. But there’s hope still. Kila had a not-terrible Spring for Oakland and could see playing time as the year goes on.

    Happy 45th birthday, Brian Jordan! Much was made about the fact that Jordan was a football player. I really didn’t think he was all that good, though he did hit .282/.333/.455 over 15 years. I have to admit that is a solid career. His speed did help to make him a good defender, but if you’re looking for a good example of speed not always translating to base-stealing ability, look no further than Brian Jordan.

    Happy 50th birthday, Billy Beane! The former Mets prospect and current Oakland General Manager is among the most controversial executives in sports. The subject of Michael Lewis’ “Moneyball”, Beane is often credited with overseeing the successful low-budget Oakland Athletics of the early 2000s. During Beane’s 6 Major League years, he hit .219/.246/.296 in 315 plate appearances. He was moderately successful in the Minors and one could argue he never really got a chance to settle in through mistakes and growing pains with the Mets. Not to make excuses for Beane, but early struggles can have a way of snowballing and destroying the confidence of a young player. And the Mets, at that time, were growing increasingly more competitive and would ultimately win the 1986 World Series. Such teams tend to have less patience for talent.

    Happy 68th birthday, Denny McLain! Your 1968 and 1969 AL Cy Young winner (and 1968 MVP) is the last player to win 30 games in a season, going 31-6 in 1968. His career would ultimately fizzle — partially from being ineffective and partially because of personal and legal problems outside of the game. McLain would be involved with gambling and later serve time in prison. You can read about the details elsewhere but it’s certainly a tragic set of circumstances.

    Also born today:
    Cy Young.

  403. Raul Says:

    Speaking of Billy Beane,

    Someone need to explain to me why Jemile Weeks is batting leadoff for Oakland in their two games in Japan.

    Jemile Weeks is not a leadoff hitter.

  404. Bob Says:

    Mike, whose assessment of Winfield’s clashes with Raul’s? I have never made a claim about Winfield in this thread.

  405. Mike Felber Says:

    I anticipated this would happen Chuck. Though I repeatedly, explicitly said i was not recommending bulk for ball players, you assumed I was.

    Pedantic detail calmly written is not a tirade. Though about your claim that bulk for sports is bad: i am very surprised you said that! For many sports & individuals bulk is great, & it is one of the reasons records are broken & guys are more athletic! For other sports it is bad.

    Baseball is a “tweener”. Many folks benefited from formal weight training, & natural filling out, AND obviously became much better through cheating & lying & taking PEDs. Though it depends: some do not gain as much or benefit at all, partly it is what are your strengths, what position do you play, how much agility & speed is needed vs. bulk…

    AND natural differences in how bodies handle bulk. PLUS how much guys train to keep agility & speed. Canseco was fast & bulkier than Bonds in muscle weight. Bonds, partly due to age, LOST the other great aspects of the game 9speed & agility fades earlier anyway), but with all the HRs & walks, even when playing less games, he contributed more/was “better” in value than ever before!

    I knew about your condition & all about the difference in body composition we have both spoken about.

    I agree with you about Bonds, though i had read, & wrote here, he was 206 lbs. at 8% body fat. They changed his height to 6′2″ likely you are right he is 6′ 1″. But if he WAS that size, & with his natural build & being a fitness fanatic, adding the greater bulk, even though some was clearly fat, was not within his wheelhouse naturally.

    And he did it implausibly fast after the ‘98 season. AND if he was really 180, which I think was his rookie weight, though listed at 185, THAT gain was implausible.

    Where we differ is that some guys manifestly can be 6′ 1″ & 240 (he was not remotely lean, just mostly muscle), naturally. AND do his other workouts.

    Nobody has even touched how it is so common in other sports like basketball, hockey…B-Ball players may be usually lighter for their height, but overwhelmingly have less body fat. Fuhghettibout it for football players.

    Who can be dramatically bigger, but even RUNNING BACKS can be around this size, even a Jim Brown ages ago was 235 & obviously fit. i do not think he did any great amount of lifting, & linebackers dwarf that.

    SO again, please finally know: I am NOT saying MLB players should be this size, nor that they can get the size of a lean 300 lbs lineman.

    It is ironic that however much weight Bonds gained, with his build/potential he would have not gotten there naturally. But this would be true if he did not play ball, baseball does NOT stop guys from getting there, it DOES make it harder, but the off season & maintaining otherwise makes it easier than if they played all year round.

  406. Raul Says:

    So after all this nonsense, Mike…and you’ve been at this crap for over a year in various articles here…it comes down to: Bonds wouldn’t have gotten there naturally, but baseball has nothing to do with it.

    And there it is.

    “but baseball has nothing to do with it”.

    THAT, is why you’re wrong.

  407. Mike Felber Says:

    You did not say Winfield was about the same build, maybe slightly wider shoulders? Which contradicted Raul saying his frame was significantly larger. If not you, then apologies, I would have to comb above to see who differed with Raul.
    So I know not how you thought i commented on playing ability when i referenced build, but if you did not say anything , my mistake too!

    Another example, & their are many I have known from gyms: a friend from the gym had a best friend who also wrestled, & he was approaching 6′3″, 270, & when leaned down to 255 was measured at 13% body fat. He could press for a full set somewhat heavier Dumbbells than my gym HAS (120).

    You know about college wrestling workouts, they are long, enervating involve weights & much hard training often, including the actual grappling.

    My friend would stay late because though he was the strongest guy on the team, 9endurance after really tough workouts may be a factor, a 200 or 130 lb. guy will tend to have more endurance), because it would take him longer than anyone to complete the “50 perfect pull ups”, mostly due to being 270!

    Apparently he was the sweetest guy in the world, & sadly, died of cancer at only 24. But the point is, SOME like him can get steroid size (not top pro HW body builder Ronnie Coleman size), naturally, in sports & training more active than baseball.

    Someone like The Big Hurt could likely have gotten around that size, but he clearly did not make fitness a priority, but like, say Serena Williams, had the bone structure & hormonal factors to be very large.

  408. Raul Says:

    Wrestling is not baseball, Mike.

    Completely irrelevant.

  409. Mike Felber Says:

    It is not crap Raul, you do not even address most particulars, just restate premises without evidence, leaving untouched the FACT that some get big as or bigger than steroid ball players naturally. And in MORE active sports & training.

    We DO agree that Bonds personally would not have gotten there naturally.

    Bonds, & most others. Like most folks are not 6′ 4′ Raul, & fewer folks are, say 6′ 8″. but these things are far from vanishingly rare, & a “normal” who average or decent potential may get where a “tall guy” potential does naturally with using PEDs.

    basic logic, observation of many sports, & common sense should tell us this.

  410. Raul Says:

    It doesn’t matter if a wrestler can pack on 20 pounds of muscle over time because it’s not relevant to baseball.

    The routines aren’t the same. The demands aren’t the same. The schedules aren’t the same.

    This is why I don’t need to address every minute detail you mention. Because they simply don’t matter.

    It’s like trying to compare a Shot Putter and a Swimmer.
    It’s pointless to do.

  411. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not want to encourage your vacillating towards rudeness Raul, so i want to say this as strongly as possible, but know this is not a personal attack.

    To merely say baseball is not wrestling is a total FAIL as an argument. It merely asserts a premise. It provides zero evidence. It seems very lazy.

    It does not address the evidence I gave, in some detail in multiple posts, about how the salient characteristics of wrestling, basketball & some other spor4ts, for the purposes of this discussion, which is NOT what is usually done or desirable for the sport, is:

    The claim that the demands of baseball make it impossible to gain & maintain that muuscle weight, even with an off season.

    That is totally false. Though intensity & efficacy of training, nutrition, AND unusual genetics are the relevant factors.

  412. Mike Felber Says:

    A shot putter & a swimmer ARE extremely different. Not only in what build they need,which is NOT REMOTELY THE QUESTION ANYWAY, but how demanding their training & schedules are.

    A shot putter does not needs only, or most all, just to do very grueling strength & explosive power work, & perfect technique.

    But a basketball or real/college wrestling guy does MORE hard training, & more AEROBIC training, than a baseball player.

    That getting bulky may or may not benefit whatever guy, whichever sport is meaningless for any point I have been trying to make, 7 if anyone now tries to MAKE that the point, it is a cop out.

    Sprinters, interestingly, have been found to benefit from relative bulk. When they used to be mostly just skinny. This was not known years ago.

  413. Raul Says:

    It’s ok, Mike.
    I’m not offended.

    It’s not a fail as an argument. It’s the very fundamental difference in the comparisons and it’s why you bringing up Wrestlers and Bodybuilders fails when you try to apply it to Mark McGwire or Jeff Bagwell.

    Swimmers aren’t bulky because bulk sucks for swimming.
    Marathon Runners don’t have 20-inch biceps because they’re useless for running.
    Baseball players don’t have enormous pecs because the bench press is useless for the skillset required of baseball players.

    I’m not addressing your premises because they’re irrelevant.
    You’re trying to dismiss mine because they don’t satisfy you.

    Long story short: I played baseball. I’ve coached baseball players. I’ve watched and spoken with scouts before. I know what exercises baseball players do. I know what they look for. I know how they physically look. — so have many other people here and around the game.

    A 6′3, 230 pound player isn’t exactly a surprise to see.
    A 6′3, 230 pound player who 2 years ago was 195 pounds — it’s completely obvious what he’s done.

    If you want a 5,000-word response as to why, search elsewhere. Because to people like me, it’s common sense.

    That’s really all I have to say about that at this point.
    Opening Day is in less than a week.

    I’d much rather discuss something else.

  414. Mike Felber Says:

    Fine Raul, but you SHOULD at least see that I AGREE with much of what you are saying, but you have wholly missed what I painstakingly claimed, & are undeniably arguing a STRAW MAN.

    1) I mostly agree with what is needed for those sports you mentioned. With the exception that clearly for some baseball players, even when costing speed & ability, has made guys like Bonds & big Mac BETTER. Since HRs & walks do so much for OPS. Sosa & others had fairly enormous pecs. Again, not for HW lifters, but compared to an average man or ball player.

    Your height & weight gain case: it is actually a borderline case.

    If you mean all muscle, it is unlikely. Though most all gain some fat Raul, so that 40 lbs. being 25-30 lbs. of muscle? That is easy for a skinny guy, 6′ 3″ 195 is not skinny, but not bulky….

    So the intelligent things to say that this MAY WELL be PEDs.

    But ALL the evidence in studies & observation shows that some can gain this weight in muscle mass. Now USUALLY in the steroid era folks who gained that weight in that time were juicing.

    But that is besides my so clearly delineated points.

    hopefully you were minimally open minded, & read the expert sources in my link about adding natural muscle. Nothing about the demands of baseball makes this implausible, & beasball is nowhere near as aerobically demanding, playing or training, as other sports where guys are often bulky.

    Doing tons of aerobic activity is a primary thing that places demands on the central nervous system, effects hormones, 7 demands additional calories, that makes being quite bulky at least difficult.

  415. Raul Says:

    Fine Mike.

    If you want me to acknowledge that a man can gain 15 or 20 pounds of muscle by working out naturally…yes, I agree that’s not impossible.

  416. Mike Felber Says:

    AND in a lifting “career” 40-50 lbs. is a reasonable rough average genetic potential, starting from what you would call “scrawny”. The link provides an example of a kid at 150, 12% body fat (this dude would not be tall), getting to 190-200 at the same body fat, pretty lean.

    Tons of guys have done this, start out as fairly skinny kids & end up this size. Some have added only approaching muscle, but not quite maxed out, Like tiger, who started out at 6′ 2″ 155 lbs. apparently! but to add more mass would likely be self defeating.

    If taller, more body fat, &/or “bulked” with much food/many meals a day, add weight.

    Lastly, a dude with LARGE genetic potential, like someone your height or taller Raul, is a very small % of the population but not at all rare, will be able to get bigger & heavier for 2 reasons”

    1) His skeleton/Frame is thicker & wider, so he weighs more just from that.

    2) Guys with dinosaur bones have more place to pack muscle, also tend to have higher levels of naturally occurring testosterone.

  417. Bob Says:

    Mike, please read post 362 again. And now I am gonna get a long Island Iced Tea. For myself!!!!!

  418. John Says:

    Chuck, got the bobblehead and cap today – thanks so much! Mustachioed Axford in classic Brewers pinstripes has got to be my favorite bobblehead of the group.

    @390, fuck me. I’ll get on it.

  419. Raul Says:

    Enjoy, Cameron.

  420. Cameron Says:

    I am. Every minute of it. It’s like what Alex Gordon was supposed to be.

  421. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, so RAUL said that, this was my error! I recalled him saying Winfield having a significantly bigger, not b=virtually the same, frame earlier, so I recalled you made that seconds comment. Goes to show you teh fallibility of memory.

    Except for the 1st month of my life, I am from LI, but never liked that drink, or any really…Alcohol is a funny thing, seems to be like a health food in small quantities, but a few drinks at a time, certainly getting 1/2 drunk, is very bad for you.

    I somehow absorbed an Austin Powers bobblehead.

  422. John Says:

    Cespedes homered today in a win today.

    Colon went 8 IP surrendering 1 run on 3 hits against the Mariners, which is the equivalent of going 2.2 IP and giving up 9 runs on 13 hits with 4 walks against an average team. I jest.

    Smoak homered. Montero has opened the season at his natural position – DH.

  423. Raul Says:

    That Mariners team will be pretty good in a year or two.
    Maybe even this year, if some guys over-perform.

  424. John Says:

    The Mariners will likely lose over 100 games this year.

  425. Raul Says:

    It won’t mean anything if they do.

  426. Chuck Says:

    I remember relaying the story of an old acquaintance who was an NBA player who became a competitive bodybuilder after his career ended.

    He went from 6′10, 255 to maybe 280-285.

    A professional athlete the size of a goddamned office building went from a lean, cardio driven basketball player to a muscle bound monster and MAYBE gained 30 pounds.

    In about three and a half years.

    Jeff Bagwell is a foot shorter and was naturally about 185, he was fireplug stocky.

    He gained 30 pounds in six months.

    And you think he was clean?

    LOL, Mike.

  427. Chuck Says:

    You’re welcome, John, anytime.

    Today was my last game.

    Spring training went by FAST.

    If you bet the under on Aroldis Chapman walking more than three batters today you’re a winner.

  428. Raul Says:

    Chapman didn’t walk anyone.

    It’s a miracle.

  429. Chuck Says:

    He was wild, though. Close enough to the plate to make them swing.

  430. Mike Felber Says:

    I recall that story, twice Chuck. Your reasoning seems sound, except you never said he gained 30 lbs. in 6 months before.

    And before folks described him as scrawny, an exaggeration, now you say fire plug stocky: he was likely 5′ 11″, but being bulky makes you look shorter, 7 had a decent build.

    Anyone can gain 30 lbs. of fat. Now if it was all or mostly all muscle in 6 months, at least if not a scrawny guy or undernourished, of new muscle, I would say you are right, he was dirty.

    But I have never heard he gained so much size in that short of a time. feel free to enlighten me with sources that allege that, or the doubtlessly extremely dramatic pictures of this.

    Because if it was actually at least a couple of years, that would be a completely different proverbial ballgame.

  431. Bob Says:

    Actually, I think the Mariners will surprise people this season. Does not mean, however, that they are playof-bound.

  432. Bob Says:

    1. Brad Hawpe was cut by the Rangers. Someone should bite.
    2. Tony LaRussa is working for MLB.
    3. Ohio State and Kentucky.

  433. Chuck Says:

    1) Maybe the Yanks wlll bite, they already have 28 lefthanded DH’s in camp fighting for 200 PA’s, why not one more?

    2) Made my day

    3) Louisville and Kansas

  434. Chuck Says:

    I’m currently tied for first in my NCAA bracket, although my champion has already lost.

    For me to win it, I need Ohio State to beat Kentucky for the title.

    I’m the only one of the top five who had OS going to the Final Four, and I’m one of three who had Kentucky in the championship game (and one of two who had them losing).

  435. Raul Says:

    5 days until Opening Day.

    Happy 23rd birthday, Chris Sale! The 13th pick of the 2010 MLB draft has spent his career as a reliever for the White Sox thusfar but is making the move into the rotation for 2012. A college standout for Florida Gulf Coast University (a school I am certain does not exist), Sale has pitched 24 innings this Spring, allowing 24 hits with 22 strikeouts while walking just 2. Some growing pains aside, Chicago does appear to have one bright spot on the roster with Sale — though it’ll take a complete management overhaul before they really get good again.

    Happy 34th birthday, Josh Bard! The catcher (not to be confused with Red Sox pitcher Daniel Bard) is a 10-year veteran, mostly as a part-time player. Talk about a guy who has gotten around… Bard was born in Ithaca NY, went to High School in Englewood CO, went to college at Texas Tech, ultimately signed with the Rockies in 1999, and has played for 5 Major League teams (the Rockies are not one of them). He’s in camp with the Dodgers now.

  436. Raul Says:

    My only opinion is that I find Rick Pitino less sleazy than John Calipari.
    In fact, Pitino can be quite likeable.
    Calipari seems like he was a bible salesman in a past life.

  437. Chuck Says:

    Anthony Gose’s line for Toronto yesterday against Red Sox;

    AB 3
    R 2
    H 0
    BI 0
    BB 1
    SO 0
    SB 4

  438. Bob Says:

    The charge of domestic battery against Manny have been dropped.

  439. Chuck Says:

    I guess it’s different when it’s two women who are fighting.

  440. Bob Says:

    I just googled Florida Gulf Coast University. It does exist.

  441. Cameron Says:

    Chris Sale’s delivery scares me. I tried throwing that way once just to see how someone can actually do the “inverted W” with an elbow going OVER their head like he does. …I couldn’t use that arm for the rest of the day I jacked it up so much.

  442. Chuck Says:

    “If you took Babe Ruth or Honus Wagner and somehow put them into a time machine and transported them to today, in the middle of the season, neither could play in the major leagues.”

    Rob Neyer

  443. Bob Says:

    I wonder how many orphans from Baltimore could play in today’s game.

  444. Raul Says:

    If you took Rob Neyer and put him in a time machine and transported him to the 1920s, he’d be working in a Chinese opium den for cabbage soup.

  445. Bob Says:

    look, we all get what he is implying.
    1. No African-Americans
    2. No Dominicans
    3. No Japanesse
    4. Better training today.
    5. That being said, none of those factors are the fault of Ruth and Wagner.
    I hope Neyer knows this. Some bullshit attempt at being insightful.

  446. Bob Says:

    1.Buy your mega-million ticket.
    2. TGIF!!!

  447. Raul Says:

    Rob Neyer’s an idiot.

    In 40 years he’ll be saying that if Pujols played in the 2050s, he’d stink…since in the 2000s we didn’t have Bangladeshi and Uzbekistani boys in MLB.

  448. John Says:

    I think Neyer is 100% wrong on that particular account, but I assume his message is that we should judge people according to the era that they played.

    Babe Ruth never had to face black people. That’s a pretty indisputable fact. Should we punish him for it? Absolutely not. He’s the best player ever because he dominated his time hard than anyone ever has.

    So, should we punish McGwire for use of steroids? Maybe, but I tend to disagree – because of their prevalence in the game at the time. The difference, of course, is that McGwire made a choice to cheat, so it’s not exactly a mirror image. But do you think for a second that the likes of Rogers Hornsby, Ty Cobb and the like would’ve passed up the chance to use steroids had they been given the chance?

    Context, gentlemen. The history of the game is basically useless without it.

  449. Raul Says:

    It’s such a weak argument to suppose what Cobb or Hornsby WOULD have done.
    Because who the hell knows?

    You know what players did in Cobb and Hornsby’s time?
    They threw games.

    You know what Cobb and Hornsby didn’t do?
    Throw games.

    There’s a story about Ty Cobb, I think I read it in Bill James’ abstract, that Cobb could have hit home runs like Ruth, but chose not to because he didn’t think the game should have been played that way. Anyway, the story goes that some guy claimed to have been such a good pitcher that he could strike Cobb out with 3 pitches. So they bring him in for a tryout. First pitch knocked out for a homer to LF. Second pitch was knocked out to CF and the Third was taken to RF. The pitcher looks in and says “I don’t think that’s Ty Cobb in there.”

    Real story? Probably not.
    But the point remains.

    You think A-Rod (that supposed money-hungry whore) would have thrown games?

    It’s a sh*t show to get into what a player “would” have done.

  450. Mike Felber Says:

    It is unknown. Though there is no way the avergae player is not better today, due to all these factors & a much larger population offsetting more competition from other sports. The largest single factor is likely improved training & technology. The greatest players would still stand out, but not be as much better than others.

    Though how good they would be WITH access to the best training & nutrition is unknown. Cobb & Speaker were accused of throwing games, acquitted.

    Some of those guys would certainly have cheated w/PEDs if possible. But what a guy can do with them is not a fair measure of how good they are compared to someone clean. And so many did not cheat, ever, in any age.

    Though #444 was very funny Raul.

  451. Cameron Says:

    Rob Neyer… Has he said ONE smart thing about baseball? I can’t recall.

  452. Cameron Says:

    And five bucks if Babe Ruth played today, he’d be taking HGH. If there was a rule Ruth could break, he’d break. Just because he could, despite the fact he was good enough that he didn’t need to.

  453. Mike Felber Says:

    The story of Cobb hitting a few HRs in 2 games to prove he could have toward sthe end of his career seems to be true. And had Cobb tried to hit HRs, he would likely have been even better, drawn more walks. But there is no reason to believe he could have hit as many as Ruth, maybe more like Hornsby, built similarly, slightly shorter.

    But nobody knew how doable it was until Ruth did it & the ball was more lively, & the main thing may have been the cork center in ‘11 (offense spiked then), not the possibly tight winding & new balls in ‘20. Cobb was set in his ways, but at bat/purely offense at their peak, you would want Hornsby.

  454. Raul Says:

    I’m taking Cobb.

    Hornsby was basically a part-time player after 33.

  455. Chuck Says:


    That’s a batshit argument.

    Sounds like something a sabermatrician would say when their formulas don’t work.

    The world population is roughly seven billion.

    There are roughly 750 major league baseball players.

    The world population reached two billion in 1927.

    The world is three and a half times larger today than in 1927.

    In 1927, 512 players appeared in at least one game.

    In 2011, 1295 players appeared in at least one game.

    MLB today is 61% larger than in 1927.

    The worlds population is growing much faster than MLB’s.

    Out of the 1295 who played last year, 41.2% were of another race than “Caucasian”.

    That’s 533 players.

    If 41.2% of the players in 1927 were “other” than white, we’re talking 211.

    The VAST majority of those were scrubs and minor leaguers, just like today.

    So, are you saying ALL of the extra 783 players who played last year would have been better than Babe Ruth or Honus Wagner?

    Or, that Albert Pujols in 1927 would have been better than them?

    I don’t even think Shaun would believe that.

    The “non-white” argument doesn’t hold water.

    It may have made a difference, but so small it would have been insignificant.

  456. Chuck Says:

    Population expansions, racial expansions, team expansions by and large WEAKEN a product, not strengthen it.

    One would assume if the population is three times more than it was when Ruth played, and if we’re drawing from a significantly larger talent pool, the quality of play would be significantly better, no?

    But it’s not, and everyone knows it.

  457. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, if it was still a 16 team league, it may have been a much stronger baseball play. Given the league expansion, I don’t think the racial and population expansion will make it weaker alone.

  458. Kerry Says:

    I don’t think we know what he was implying, unless he said so elsewhere. I agree that the “non-white” argument is a non-starter. After all, did players who played both before and after integration (e.g., Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Enos Slaughter, Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, Early Wynn, Warren Spahn, to name a few) suddenly perform relatively worse? I doubt it, although that might be interesting to look at.
    You’d have to allow for aging, so it would be a nontrivial exercise.

    The population increase relative to the number of available roster spots is relevant. And it’s not just training, but also the general increase in the size of the people (the average height has gone up). But I agree with Mike, the best players back then would not stand out as much, but they would still be very good.

    Also, to Bob and John, I don’t see how fault or punishment applies here; Neyer just made a statement about how they would do now. I disagree with it, but that’s a different issue.

  459. Cameron Says:

    Still, there were plenty of guys in the 20s and 30s that were, quite frankly scrubs. There was a guy who wanted to buy the Philadelphia Phillies and fire everyone, replacing them with Negro Leaguers. Given the time, they’d be playing guys like Oscar Charleston, Cristobal Torriente, Martin Dihigo, Turkey Stearns, Mule Suttles, Buck Leonard, Devil Wells, a young Josh Gibson in the field. Pitching would be guys like Satchel Paige, Bullet Joe Rogan, Hilton Smith, Chet Walker… Yeah. The game of the time was a little artificially scrubbed.

  460. Raul Says:

    In the 1920s, baseball in the Caribbean was hardly existent, much less had the capacity to produce exceptional talent.

    Hell, it’s only in the last 20 years that Venezuela has emerged as a relatively serious contender to the talent pool of the Dominican Republic.

  461. Kerry Says:

    @456, how can you say the level of play isn’t better now? Increased population pool alone (relative to the increase in roster spots) would mean MLB players are coming from further out on the bell curve, so even if size and training was not improving, you would expect an increase in level of play. It also means that the best players would not dominate as much, i.e., they would not be as much better than the average player now as they were then.

  462. Cameron Says:

    There was some talent in the latin countries in the 20s and 30s, Raul, but the only real guys who would’ve been stars were Torriente and Dihigo.

  463. Raul Says:

    How much better is David DeJesus than the average outfielder in 1925?

    I’m really not sure there’s a credible way to assess that.

  464. Cameron Says:

    Not really. You’re going from a whites-only 16 team league to an inclusive 30 team league.

    My guess… Not that much better. He’d be good enough for a job on a mid/low level team. Better than a starter on the Browns, but he wouldn’t be great.

  465. Chuck Says:

    “@456, how can you say the level of play isn’t better now?”

    I watch games.

  466. Bob Says:

    And perhaps Babe Ruth would have stayed a pitcher in today’s game.. A left-handed pitcher at that.

  467. Cameron Says:

    Kerry, they may be coming from farther out on the bell curve, but there’s also another 90 years of medical science, training techniques, and refinement of the game itself between now and the 1920s. The game evolves over time. Pitchers finally learned how to not pitch home runs between now and then. …It took ‘em about 30 years, but they did it.

  468. Cameron Says:

    Jesus, Bob’s got a point. A left-handed pitcher? You never teach them how to hit anymore.

  469. Chuck Says:

    “Pitchers finally learned how to not pitch home runs between now and then.”


  470. Chuck Says:

    Royals signed Alex Gordon to a four year extension

  471. Cameron Says:

    @469 Pitching from the 1920s-1940s. 30 years of pretty homer-prone pitching, pretty bad pitching on the whole, too.

    Also, YES!

  472. Chuck Says:

    There have been ten seasons in NL history in which teams combined to average one homer per game or more.

    The number occurrences prior to 1999?


    It’s happened 18 times in American League history.

    The number of occurrences prior to 1999?


    The number of occurrences prior to the DH?


    Sorry, Cam.


  473. Mike Felber Says:

    Well…Pitchers may have been slower to counter the way hitters took advantage of the batter’s new approach to the love/corked ball. If 100% so, that only means that they did not adapt well, whether the average pitcher was worse that, say, in the teens is almost a philosophical inquiry into talent vs. whether we should expect a counter “arms race” adaptation was structurally reasonable to expect. But hitting?HRs had calmed down BY the ’40’s, it was not 30 years.

    Not a bad case Chuck. Though understand that it is not mainly how good the players of whatever race ar ein MLB, but how these guys make it more competitive to even get to the show. I am inclined to believe that even more than the #s Kerry describe, advances in nutrition & mostly training mean that the athleticism is significantly greater now.

    We have discussed at length how baseball knowledge is so important, & the only reason Rith COULD possibly be the best ever, or close to it, in an absolute sense, is the nature of baseball itself. Dependent more upon things like hand eye coordination. It was not until Chamberlain in the ’60’s, likely after that in football, that you could say those sports had guys as good or better than the best today.

    But Still: when you watch games, you forget the “frog boiling in water effect”. Which admittedly is a myth re: being literally true, but it is instructive. The slow improvement in athleticism & effects of technology like video & fitness are not clearly seen. Even if you watch games decades apart, you cannot see exactly how fast & strong all are, the BASE has shifted.

    If we did not, say, have times in track & field, & recorded weights in lifting, some would SEE that the oldsetrs could compete, when in fact they would be blown away today. Again, it is not as dramatic in a sport that does not depend so purely on raw & developed by training ability…

    But there must be some significant effect over time.

  474. Chuck Says:

    In their respective physical primes, before the hot dogs, draft beer and steriods, Babe Ruth was bigger and stronger than Barry Bonds.

    To say there is an advantage to pitching today is debateable, on one hand, you have Ruth’s era where complete games were much more prevalent, thus you’d be facing the same pitcher four or five times per game.

    As the game goes on and the pitcher becomes more fatigued, and as the hitter can better adjust to the changing repetoire, he gains the upper hand as the game progresses.

    Today, you may only face a pitcher three times and two seperate relievers once each.

    It gives the hitter a different look, obviously, and you only have one AB to make whatever adjustments you need to. On the other hand, that reliever is a reliever for a reason, he doesn’t have the stuff to pitch more than one or two innngs, so that’s a wash.

    Maybe more pitchers throw harder today, but that’s only because there are more pitchers. But hitting a 94 FB is much easier than a spitball or shine ball or a quick pitch.

    Sorry, but anyone who thinks if Ruth played today he’d be Russell Branyan, you’re a complete idiot.

    There is NO reason to think he wouldn’t be consistently putting up numbers similar to Pujols.

  475. Raul Says:

    “Sorry, but anyone who thinks if Ruth played today he’d be Russell Branyan, you’re a complete idiot.”

  476. Mike Felber Says:

    For aqree our disagreements Chuck, I completely agree that Ruth would put up Pujols type #s, 170 OPS + for a career is reasonable. And that is WITHOUT modern training. WIth it, I would tend to give Ruth the edge, & that is being conservative.

    Ruth was naturally bigger & stronger than Bonds WITHOUT modern training, & his power not only remained after he got fat, his raw power was greater than anything Bonds ever achieved even with PEDs.

    Some relievers are starter quality but without the endurance, so i do think that is more than a wash. Ruth had some era & personally unique challenges, from grueling travel to how he was pitched, not accounted for often. In “The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs” Bill Jenkinson enumerates them.

  477. Raul Says:

    Congratulations to Jamie Moyer.
    49 and made the Colorado Rockies rotation.

  478. John Says:

    “You know what Cobb and Hornsby didn’t do? Throw games”


    Check your history on that one, pal. Wanna know why Cobb ended his career with two years on the Athletics?

    “Also, to Bob and John, I don’t see how fault or punishment applies here; Neyer just made a statement about how they would do now. I disagree with it, but that’s a different issue.”

    I mean, Neyer has to base his statement on something though.

    Why on earth would Babe Ruth not be a great ballplayer today?

    Because he was overweight?

    There’s one player in history that has ever been both under 6 feet tall and over 270 lbs…he’s just been signed to a 9-year, 214 million dollar deal.

    Because Ruth never faced Blacks?

    That’s a better argument…but no. Expansion cancels out many of those effects anyway.

    Plus, he never got to look at video of previous at-bats vs. a pitcher, or anything like that.

    I think the talent level has INCREASED, don’t get me wrong. But I find the idea that Babe Ruth would struggle laughable…especially when you consider that a third of his at-bats would be against guys who either are Bobby Parnell, or look and pitch exactly like Bobby Parnell.

    Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner would be fantastic today, as always.

  479. John Says:

    @456, LOL. You weren’t watching games in the 1920’s. You’re not *that* old

  480. Mike Felber Says:

    Cobb & Speaker were accused & cleared. But I certainly have wondered if they threw games.

  481. Chuck Says:


    True, but I do remember 16 teams, two leagues, and one postseason team per league.

    And no DH, and complete games, and best of all, no sabermetrics.

  482. John Says:

    “complete games, and best of all, no sabermetrics.”

    As soon as people realized that batting simply to avoid a strikeout was stupid, they started going deeper into counts and the complete game became a rarity.

    Bob Gibson wouldn’t be throwing 30 complete games today.

  483. John Says:

    In the American League in 1960, the average starter went 6.25 IP.
    In the American League in 2011, the average starter went 6.06 IP.

    50 years, and starters are still going basically just as deep into ball games – between 6 and 6&1/3 innings.

  484. Bob Says:

    Lars Anderson will play some left field this year.

  485. brautigan Says:

    While the population has increased, I think the number of people playing baseball has decreased.

    Everyone played baseball back in the day, now most of the little brats exposed to baseball via XBOX, not on the field. Freaking little coke bottle slugs……….wonder why we’re obese and obtuse?

  486. Chuck Says:

    Braut..did you know Neyer lives in Portland?

    You guys should hook up and become drinking buddies.

  487. Chuck Says:

    “Lars Anderson will play some left field this year.”

    Pawtucket will never be the same.

    And if you’ve ever been there, it doesn’t take much.

  488. Chuck Says:

    “Bob Gibson wouldn’t be throwing 30 complete games today.”

    I agree, although I’m pretty sure sabermetrics isn’t the primary reason.

  489. Chuck Says:


    Interesting three or four paragraphs about two thirds of the way through the article.

  490. Raul Says:

    Michael Pineda on the DL with shoulder tendinitis.


    Did anyone else see that story about Mariners reliever Steve Delabar on HBO Sports last week?

    Really interesting story.

  491. John Says:

    “Yes, getting on-base is very important, but has the importance of getting on base taken away from traditional wisdom, that putting the ball in play is just as important?”

    On-base percentage is about 1,000,000,000 times more important than “ball-in-play” percentage.

  492. Raul Says:

    So you’d rather have Jack Cust than Starlin Castro.

  493. John Says:

    Yes, that’s precisely what I said.

  494. Raul Says:

    Glad we’re on the same page.

    For a second, I thought that 1 billion times calculation might have been a bit of hyperbole.

  495. John Says:

    I’d rather have the Tigers offense and their OBP than the White Sox and their ball-in-playness.

    I mean, I’d score 130 more runs. But yeah, all those groundouts must count for something, right?

  496. Raul Says:

    That’s not what he meant.

  497. Chuck Says:

    The Rangers had the same team OBP as the Tigers and walked 475 times as a team.

    The White Sox walked the same amount of times as the Rangers and had a team OBP 21 points less.

    The Rangers won 96 games and played in the World Series.

    The White Sox won 79 games and finished 16 games out.

  498. John Says:

    Do you really want me to show you evidence of correlation?

    Obp directly relates to run-scoring.

    “Ball in play percentage” correlates about as closely as length of ace starter’s middle name.

  499. Raul Says:

    He wasn’t talking about ball-in-play percentage.

    You must love Jack Cust though.

  500. Raul Says:

    More importantly, we are 4 days away from Opening Day.

    And sadly, this is the 500th post of this article.

  501. Raul Says:

    Happy 32nd birthday, Chien Ming Wang. Wang started his career with the Yankees going 54-20 with a 3.79 ERA. It’s no doubt that Wang over-achieved in those first few years in New York, but there was cause for hope. His poor strikeout record was showing incremental improvement and he was 8-2 with a 4.07 ERA through 95 innings before he injured himself running the bases. At the time, some used the injury to rail against Interleague Play. The reality is, it just shows how babied American League pitchers are that simply running the bases can have such a disastrous outcome.

  502. Chuck Says:

    “Obp directly relates to run-scoring.”

    No shit, college boy.

    I mean, holy shit, but unless you can explain to us how it’s possible to score a run without getting on base, that very well may be the dumbest comment in the history of the internet.

    Seriously, you’re a US Navy engineer with an IQ likely in the 90th percentile, and you post a comment like that?

    You must do LSD on weekends.

  503. Chuck Says:


    If you Google “famous sinkerball pitchers”, you get a list of, yawn, not very good pitchers.

    Especially when you subtract half the guys on the list who don’t actually throw sinkers, like Roy Halladay.

    Point being, Wang’s lack of coordination only accelerated his inevitable injury problems.

    Once a sinkerballer has shoulder surgery, he’s essentially done unless he can develop another dominant pitch, which in itself is difficult to do, much less after reconstructive surgery.

    If I’m a GM and some agent called looking for a job for his client, whether it be Wang, or Aaron Cook or Brandon Webb, I’m hanging up on him right after “hello”.

  504. Chuck Says:


    There’s something to that for sure, but, again, sabermetrics have nothing to do with it.

    It’s like throwing a brick to a drowning man..the effort is there, but the result isn’t.

  505. John Says:

    @502,you know what correlation means, right?

    It means that if I took a freaking sample of the last 10 years (so, 300 data points) and had a graph of R/G on the y-axis and OBP on the x-axis, it would read like a straight freaking line with a positive slope, with 1 or 2 outliers.

    If I did the same thing with, for example, strikeouts, or “% of balls in play” I would get a random, non-sensical graph that looks nothing like anything.

    @504, I didn’t say sabermetrics had anything to do with it. You make it sound like every game back in the day was an epic battle between Bob Gibson and Juan Marichal. 2-1 game, complete games from both starters, etc.

    In reality, starters weren’t even going a full out more than they’re going now.

  506. John Says:

    @500, tell me, what is there to write about?

    When the season starts, and I’m actually watching games, then there’ll be something going on to discuss.

    At the moment, I’m at a loss for new ideas. I could make a predictions article about MVP/CY/ROY, I guess.

  507. Chuck Says:



    Still, reply fail.

    Even your special needs twin Shaun knows OBP “directly relates to run scoring”.

    Or would assume everyone else does.

  508. John Says:

    So I guess the question is…why do you hate something that you acknowledge relates directly to run-scoring? Do you hate run-scoring?

  509. Chuck Says:

    Please read comment #497.

    If you have any questions relating DIRECTLY TO THAT COMMENT, I’ll be happy to explain in more detail.

    Otherwise, I see no other reason to continue.

  510. Mike Felber Says:

    I can feel the love shining bright!

    In liue of new topics, This Blog could use some Estrogen.

  511. Chuck Says:

    “this Blog could use some Estrogen.”

    That’s what we have you for.

  512. Raul Says:

    Ok this isn’t me being a jerk, but that was hilarious @ Chuck 511

  513. John Says:


    The Rangers slugged .460. That’s 70 points higher than the White Sox. They hit 33% more home runs.

    They didn’t make the world series with sac flies and other “productive” outs.

  514. Mike Felber Says:

    Mystery solved, Slugging. Though I bet the intent was not to cherry pick an explanation that avoided an extremely basic component of offensive production.

    Surely (or should I say Shirley I?) must be a Girly-man. I strive with all my might to be fair & balanced, am not unkind nor mockingly dismissive, call folks on nasty speech & put downs, & refuse to gratuitously denigrate whole spheres of established thought that threaten my biases & fears. Should be S & M for SM.

    So tomorrow I will go shop for a 48A bra, makeup, panties/hosiery, some tasteful skirts, kicky heels & perchance something in a pantsuit. Why, maybe I can even my hometown icon & all around Macho Man proud! Win his favor & ride off together into the sunset…

  515. Raul Says:

    That was unnecessary.

  516. Mike Felber Says:

    Right Raul. You laugh at a gratuitous insult about me, I take it good naturedly & post a surreal self deprecating vignette, & you still find a(n irrational) reason to critique me.

    The laugh just before I understood without the disclaimer, but how is the latest not being a jerk?

    Fun is not “necessary”. Neither is, oh, pretty much all recreation, good fellowship & sports, to name a mere 3 amongst an endless list of things wholly irrelevant to mere survival & stagnation.

    Unless one wants to self expression, human connections, freedom & happiness.

  517. Raul Says:

    Chuck made a one-line comment.

    You just went into 2 paragraphs and a subsequent post.

    Completely unnecessary.

  518. Mike Felber Says:

    That should have read: Unless one wants to value or indulge in self expression, human connections, freedom &/or happiness.

    On the off chance that a fellow progressive somehow mistook my parody for demeaning the G-Man: it was not remotely putting him down for his different drag appearances, they were funny & a sign of security. There was no political or personal critique at all: I just was being surreal for pure fun & weird effect after making a point.

  519. Mike Felber Says:

    Right. I am not in the business of doing only what is “necessary”. You should not presume to tell me this, & i would not think of telling you not to expound upon things when you go off on tangents on pop culture, comedy, news or whatever else, often absent responding to another’s post.

    Unless someone is nasty, or even addressing topics that some may be sensitive about-which does not rightly include joking around at one’s own expense-you should not attempt to be anal retentive nor sotto voice censorious with another’s playful expression.

  520. Chuck Says:

    That’s right John.

    Because their OBP wasn’t walk driven.

  521. John Says:

    If it had been “single-driven,” they would’ve been watching the Angels win the division instead.

  522. Chuck Says:

    Doubt it.

  523. Dugout Central » Blog Archive » Dugout Central Challenge Reminder Says:

    [...] 4th Annual Dugout Central Challenge are due by 6 PM CDT, Wedneday, April 4. Details were given in a previous article. Just send your predictions for regular season win totals for each MLB team to me at [...]

  524. brautigan Says:

    Yeah, when the Beavers played in Portland, I used to run into Neyer at the games periodically. Really nice guy. Although, I prefer his books to his articles…….by a large margin.

  525. Chuck Says:

    He’s a tool.

  526. brautigan Says:

    Still Chuck, if you were to sit down and talk with Neyer, you’d have an enjoyable time.

  527. Chuck Says:

    I have talked to him.

    It was on the phone, and not in person, and it was about five years ago, so maybe he’s mellowed with age.

    I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt, and if I ever do run into him again maybe I’ll have a different opinion.

  528. JohnBowen Says:

    @524, Neyer wrote a fun book about confirming/debunking famous baseball legends (or just things people said).

    It was a fun read, I’ll see if I can find it.

  529. Chuck Says:

    I could write a fun book debunking most things he said.

    Babe Ruth couldn’t play today, kick Mickey Mantle out of the HOF.

    It could write itself.

Leave a Reply