Happy Birthday, Mike Trout

by JohnBowen

Ahem. Happy 21st birthday, Mike Trout.

Mike Trout can finally have a legal drink…something he might have to do after he becomes just the third rookie in history to win the MVP award.

Trout is on a downright historic pace – for anyone, much less a dude born in 1991. He currently leads the American League in batting average at .348, OPS+ at 183, runs scored at 86 (in just 87 games) and stolen bases with 36 (having been caught just 3 times). Add to the fact that he catches just about anything hit anywhere near his direction, and you have what has to be the best all-around player in baseball for 2012.

In terms of Wins Above Replacement, Trout stands neck and neck with the two other rookies to win MVP, Ichiro Suzuki and Fred Lynn. Both had marvelous seasons, registering 7.1 and 7.5 WAR respectively. Trout stands at 7.4 – after just 86 games! That’s a 162-game pace of 13.8 WAR – or roughly what Babe freaking Ruth put up in his best season. Put another way, the difference between Mike Trout and second place (Robby Cano) is about the same as the difference between Cano and, for example, Denard Span.

Naturally, Mike Trout will win rookie of the year as well (though he barely qualified). In doing so, he will become the second Angels rookie to win the award, and also the second Angel named after a type of fish.

Trout gives his manager, Mike Scioscia, the total package. Power to all fields, speed, defense – the classic 5-tool player.  And to think the Angels wanted to start Vernon Wells over him when the season began.

Happy Birthday, Mr. Trout. Does it feel weird to be called “mister” – anything, at your age ? Get used to it. You started the season as a minor leaguer, a top prospect for sure, but an afterthought in Anaheim with the signing of mega-star Albert Pujols.

Somehow, I doubt you’ll ever be an afterthought again.

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601 Responses to “Happy Birthday, Mike Trout”

  1. Chuck Says:

    In person, Trout doesn’t look as big as he does on TV. If the old saying is true, that “TV adds ten pounds” (explain Oprah?), then maybe, but Bryce Harper looks bigger in person, so now I’m confused.

    Trout has no ass. (Reminds me of the old George Carlin joke, “how you keep them damn pants up?”)

    His power comes from his balance, obviously he has strong legs and core, and a short, direct downward swing which stays in the zone a long time.

    (Nerd alert)


    In the AFL, Trout didn’t look good at all. He was gassed from the season but it didn’t seem like he was all that motivated.

    Being from a small school in a northeastern part of the country may have caused him to fall in the draft a bit, and obviously not being a SI cover boy played a part too, but if anyone “saw” this, especially this early, sorry, but you’re full of shit.

  2. John Says:

    I certainly wasn’t claiming to have saw this coming; I don’t think anyone did. Like I said, his own organization elected to start one of the worst players from 2011 ahead of him to begin the year (cough, 20 million dollars, cough).

    This was the AFL in 2011 that Trout looked bad, Chuck?

  3. Chuck Says:


    You know, John, for a guy who has an engineering degree, you’re not too bright.


    ML teams don’t sit guys making $20 million dollars.

    Because they’re making $20 million dollars.

    At that salary, performance is irrelevant.

    Wells…Jason Bay…Todd Helton…Hanley…ARod…

  4. John Says:

    But having taken some rudimentary econ classes, I understand the principle of sunk costs.

    That 20 million dollars is gone and it’s not coming back. Going forward, you make the best decisions for your team at that time, period.

    Now, maybe Trout benefited from that extra time in AAA … I don’t really know.

    Right now, the Angels are spending 20,400,000 dollars on CFers; they’d be spending the same amount with Trout on the bench. But this way, they’re back in the playoff race.

  5. Chuck Says:

    “rudimentary econ classes,”

    All econ classes are rudimentary.

    If the plus column is bigger than the minus, that’s good.

    If the minus is bigger, that’s bad.

    That’s it.

  6. Chuck Says:

    Class act


  7. Patrick Says:

    Check out the cocky guy in the foreground. He looks like he’s signing a ball for Ripken. lol

    I’ve only seen Trout on film, but to me, he looks bigger and faster this year. Like he went through a filling out spurt. He’s a player that makes you say “wow” every time you watch him and I didn’t see that last year.

    Like I wrote on the other board, this could end up being Trout’s best year ever because you can’t get much better than he’s playing.

    That Vernon Wells contract was the dumbest $100M+ ever, for the Angels to take it off Toronto’s hands was asinine.

  8. Chuck Says:

    “That Vernon Wells contract was the dumbest $100M+ ever..”

    Dear Patrick,



    Jason Bay

  9. Len Says:

    Wells’ contract was a seven year $126 million contract. It was a back loaded contract as well so the Jays only paid Wells $40 million for 3 seasons 2008-2010 and most of that portion of the contract was a $25.5 million dollar signing bonus.

    The Angels not only took Wells’ back-loaded contract, they also traded Mike Napoli to get it!! The Angles agreed to trade Mike Napoli and Juan Rivera and then agreed to pay Wells $86 million for the 2011-2014 seasons. That has to be one of the worst G.M moves in years.

    The Blue Jays should have seen a red flag in Wells after his 2007 season.

    I don’t know what’s more mind-boggling that the Jays gave him that contract going into his age 29 season or that the Angels traded Mike Napoli to take over the bulk of that contract in 2011. And then another crazy point is that the Jays traded Napoli a week later for Frank Francisco.

  10. Len Says:

    @4 John,

    There are sunk costs and then there’s Vernon Wells’ contract. They owed him $60 million for 2012-2014 so they were going to find a way to get some use from him. They’re still on the hook for $40 million after this season.

  11. Len Says:


    As far as sunk costs go:

    I think most people have a problem with sunk costs because it’s hard for us to rationalize and admit that we’ve made a terrible mistake or used poor judgement. It’s a question of ego I guess. Say you go out and spend a lot of money on a sweater during an impulse buying period. You go home and question your decision but don’t return it. You never wear it because you don’t really like and start to notice that it’s not even made well and you really regret your purchase. Eventually you might throw away the sweater or give it to good will or it might sit in your closet for 5-10 years.

    I think the problem with baseball contracts is that there’s the public fear of embarrassment that you’ve made a terrible decision and if you’re the current G.M, you probably don’t want to draw any criticism from the media about your decision.

    I think there’s also a fear that if you release your player he might actually be picked up by another team and play well thus embarrassing you further.

  12. Brautigan Says:

    Chuck writes: “but if anyone “saw” this, especially this early, sorry, but you’re full of shit.”

    Baseball Prospectus in their 2011 guide gave 3 comparable players to Mike Trout. They were Cesar Cedeno, Justin Upton and the most comparable player: Mickey Mantle. I have never seen BP put out any thing close to that kind of praise before. Probably won’t see it again either. They surmised that as Trout gets older and slower, he’ll more than adequately replace that with doubles and homeruns.

    After reading that, I always had it in the back of my mind: as good as Bryce Harper gets, Mike Trout will be better.

  13. Chuck Says:

    I’m reasonably certain there’s no one at BP who saw Mantle play, and I’d double the bet for Cedeno.

  14. Lefty33 Says:

    “I think there’s also a fear that if you release your player he might actually be picked up by another team and play well thus embarrassing you further.”

    That’s any sport.

    The real issue with the baseball is the toxicity of the guaranteed contract mixed with the stiffer tax penalties.

    In the NFL if a guy sucks you cut him and (Boom) your obligation is done.

    Sure if he’s a big name player his guaranteed money might still count against the cap for a bit but you are not eating the entire contract.

    In the NBA there are numerous exceptions to get around the cap with the Larry Bird exception, the Early Bird exception, the Non-Bird Exception, Traded Player exception, Disabled Player exception, etc.

    Only in Baseball is it where when the GM makes a $100 million dollar mistake you are stuck with it in one way or another for the life of the deal unless you can sucker another team into helping you out.

  15. Brautigan Says:

    Mantle’s speed and power was legendary.

    40 years from now, they may be saying the same thing about Trout. (ok, Trout doesn’t have that mammoth power Mantle had, especially from Mantle’s right side, but Trout certainly has the potential to exceed Mantle in every other facet of the game.)

  16. John Says:

    Yeah, definitely too early to say. It strikes me as odd when people make comparisons of prospects to all-time legends. It takes raw tools AND execution to achieve that status. Maybe Trout will be an all-time great, maybe not – the next 20 years will tell on that one.

    How sick would Mantle’s numbers have been if he could’ve had all day to nurse hangovers instead of just the morning?

  17. Chuck Says:

    Sabermetric website..consider the source.

  18. Chuck Says:

    Put the pipe down, Braut…

  19. Brautigan Says:

    How good would Mantle have been hadn’t he been molested as a child and a fuck up as an adult? Oh, and don’t forget the femur ripping through the front of his knee cap either.

  20. Len Says:


    Yeah you’re right in that baseball is different in terms of guaranteed contracts. Football teams can just cut players and end their obligation.

    I was making an analogy to buying something like an article of clothing and having buyer’s remorse and dealing with the sunk costs as compared to releasing a baseball player and having him have success with your competitor.

    Odds are that if you decide to send your expensive sweater to good will, you will never see the sweater again so you won’t have to deal with your neighbor wearing it one day and embarrassing you.

  21. Mike Felber Says:

    Sure, economics is all just the balance sheet, nothin’ too it. And Physics, you only can learn which way is up & about a few basic forces like gravity & Anthropology just read an antiquated Descent of man chart-these so called sciences are simple really, all those advanced degrees that enable us to invent things & discover the Nature of the universe & innovate life saving, past & future predicting, &/or game changing technology: all hype, smoke & mirrors really.

    Chuck. If you are gonna attempt to school me or anyone on something as basic as a swing, you need to have the patience to be credible & engage, not a GOM (grumpy old man). When we engaged the topic before & i went into detail differing with you about swings being “downward” & cited evidence, including a Babe Ruth video & commentary, your scintillating in depth analysis involved many ha ha ha’s (sic, very).

    Let’s try again for some respectful engagement of minor complexities. Shorter swings tend to be faster. Which often produces greater power. Not always, some leverage more force through a longer swing-expert baseball historian Bill Jenkinson showed how Ruth hit the longest drives in absolute distance ever, with inferior bat “technology” & an unarguably at least moderately long swing.

    You cannot plausibly argue he would have hit even further with a shorter swing, nor that EVERYONE who has a shorter faster swing hits it further. Usually, OK.

  22. Mike Felber Says:

    A great deal of time later you described the progression of a swing between down & up. Though the ship had long sailed on the original argument, & if you want to illuminate you make the case then. An uppercut before contact is the relevant information information though.

  23. Mike Felber Says:

    As for your confusion about who looks bigger in person or on TV…

    1) Our subjective impression of who LOOKS what size is often incorrect. We measure things ’cause folks looking even at things which theoretically can be viewed are distorted by many factors. Fit of the clothes is a big one. Even the energy/context of a situation, & how.the angle you see someone, can mislead.

    2) Someone who is bigger in front, say mainly chest & biceps, will look bigger on TV, ”cause you do not see the whole person as well. Back, ass, hammies are the “depth” that those with fuller development have. Sometimes a more female pattern of fat distribution will add size too, but with fit athletes this is less likely to add much size.

  24. Len Says:

    I met Katarina Witt once and she was much looked much shorter in person. I think she was only about 5′5″ but I had only ever seen her with ice skates so she looked a few inches taller on t.v.

  25. Chuck Says:

    “I met Katarina Witt once and she was much looked much shorter in person..”

    If I met Katarina Witt in person I’d be doing 20 years in Sing Sing.

  26. Raul Says:

    The reason a shorter swing is desirable is because it helps pitch recognition.
    Not because of anything to do with power.

  27. Raul Says:

    The Mike Trout hype is on high right now.
    But my 1st pick in next year’s fantasy draft will still be Andrew McCutchen.

  28. Patrick Says:

    I didn’t know Mantle was abused as a kid. He admitted to being a bed wetter until adulthood though, which is sometimes a sign of abuse. I recently read an unflattering book by Jane Levy(?) about the “real” Mantle and if you can believe half of what she wrote, The Mick was quite the fuckup.

    The day he met Levy he asked her if she was nervous meeting her idol and she said “yes”, and he replied “don’t worry, I’m not going to squeeze your tities.”

    He signed a 6 yr old’s baseball card “I fucked Debbie Reynolds, Mickey Mantle”.

    Another time at an Old Timers game, the old guys had to write on index cards what their favorite Yankee Stadium memory was. Mantle wrote something like “the time I got a blow job in the bullpen during the 3rd inning of a game. I wasn’t playing because of my hip(1961 I guess), she was a nice girl but when she was done she asked “what should I do with it?” I said “how the fuck should I know, I’m no cocksucker!”

  29. Brautigan Says:

    The first time I met Mantle, he had a huge 4 X 4 inch bandage on the side of his face. This was the result of falling off of a barstool. Once sober, he realized his life towards other was pretty damning and he did his best to make amends in the short time he had left.

  30. Chuck Says:

    Celebrities doing things we wish we did are no big deal.

    Remember the famous publicity photo of Marilyn Monroe for the “Seven Year Itch”..standing over the grate with the wind blowing her skirt up?

    Ten minutes after that picture was taken Joe DiMaggio punched her in the face and broke her nose because she showed her panties in public.

    I’d give two years off my life to get a blowjob in the bullpen at Yankee Stadium.

    Joe DiMaggio is the real cocksucker.

  31. Patrick Says:

    DiMaggio treated Mantle like shit. When Mantle was being carried off the field after wrecking his knee in the WS, that was the first time DiMaggio spoke to Mantle all year! From March to October DiMaggio wouldn’t talk to the kid. What a prick.

    So the way Mantle told it was, DiMaggio called him off at the last possible second and Mantle put on the breaks, hit the sprinkler head and tore his ACL and a few other things(not fixable in his day). Then Joltin Joe says “tough break kid.” That’s it after playing all year next to each other in the same outfield.

    By all accounts, Mantle was a winner and a good teammate. He played in pain everyday and never complained and usually lied, saying he felt good because he was afraid of getting a paycut. His teammates loved him which says it all to me.

    I never heard anyone say that they were friends or that they even liked DiMaggio.

  32. Raul Says:

    56 games in a row is a nice accomplishment.
    Anyone who thinks that is even in the same realm as hitting .400 is insane.
    Teddy Ballgame was robbed.

  33. Patrick Says:

    @27- McCutcheon is sooo good. I’d have to say he is more of a can’t miss guy than even Trout. Seeing him in person at Wrigley was a real treat. The only way McCutcheon isn’t on his way to a HOF career is if injuries hit.

    Seeing as how we are comparing kids to immortals, I’ll compare McCutcheon to Willie Mays. Yup. I said it.

    I remember when they said Eric Davis was the next Mays. I couldn’t see that at the time and it turned out that it was a ridiculous comparison. I also remember when they were comparing Ceasar Cedeno to him and that fizzled after about 5 or 6 years. I see McCutheon as much more worthy of the comparison.

  34. Patrick Says:

    Yeah Raul, plus the idea was Williams was hurt by his foul attitude towards sportswriters and fans but DiMaggio wasn’t any better in that regard.

    I guess Williams would tell em to fuck off and DiMaggio would give them the silent treatment. Not sure what’s more offensive there.

  35. Patrick Says:

    *Cesar I mean

  36. Mike Felber Says:

    I know many of those stories, had not heard jealous Joe D. had broke her nose though! Mantle had different sides. He both abused his body & fought injuries heroically & was good to his teammates. But he could be callous & sometimes mean, we would never excuse others signing a ‘lil kids autograph like that or his misogyny today. Play the field, fine. Treat woman poorly, no better than treating any race poorly. He was good at heart, worked hard, but never got any help for his serious problems, a country boy who did try to atone at the end.

    I know that Raul, I was just addressing the question of power.

    I am afraid to ask what Chuck means by what he would do to Witt. And why.

  37. Patrick Says:

    Mantle could never get over how he could treat people like crap and they would always come back for more. He just had to see how far he could push his behavior and still get away with it.

    Anyway, I don’t judge him, his life was surreal and it wasn’t lost on him. He was like a god to just about all americans and he tried desperately to show people he was anything but.

    He had a brutal sense of humor. Close to the end, he mailed his dirty diaper and his used catheter to some guy who always was hounding him for memorabilia accompanied by a nasty note. He went out swinging.

    Let’s hope Mike Trout or McCutcheon doesn’t have to face any of those problems.

  38. Mike Felber Says:

    Patrick, you do judge folks like Mantle for the good they do, favorably, & that is only decent. As it is to have sympathy for the damage & troubles they have absorbed & endured.

    But if we are to assume folks are adults & have free will, they are responsible for being abusive &/or mean to. Not judging: I think not judging too harshly or precipitously, operating with all available facts & charity/empathy is only right.

    But Conservatives (I am liberal) are correct that folks need to be held responsible. If you credit folks, it is only right to also fairly note when they are bad. Mantle knew he was dealing with folks with feelings, no excuse for being cruel.

    And he gets credit for his kindnesses. But he was never very healthy or whole.

  39. Chuck Says:

    “Close to the end, he mailed his dirty diaper and his used catheter to some guy who always was hounding him for memorabilia accompanied by a nasty note.”

    OK, now that’s funny.

  40. Chuck Says:


  41. Brautigan Says:

    “The next Mickey Mantle”.

    I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard that line growing up. I would have had a hell of a lot more baseball cards as a kid.

    “The next Mickey Mantle”. Yeah, it was supposed to be guys like Tim Harkness, Roger Repoz, Bobby Murcer……really, the list is pretty damn long.

  42. Raul Says:

    Sometimes I’ll watch a Yankees Classics game just to listen to Bobby Murcer’s voice.

    Odd to call up Machado now. And I guess he’ll play 3B??

    I guess the experience should benefit him tremendously for 2013.

  43. Chuck Says:

    Steve Whitaker….

  44. Chuck Says:

    #42..you got it..took you what, three sentences?

    Read some of these stat sites this morning, you’d think he ran over your dog.

    “He’s going to suck because his BABIP…”

    “He’s going to struggle because of his walk rate…”

    “His ARL is no good…”


  45. Raul Says:

    Who cares about his babip and walk rate?
    he’s a baby pup.

    The same guys freaking out over Machado right now are the same guys who are sucking Mike Trout’s dick.

    And does anyone remember what Mike Trout did last year?

  46. Chuck Says:

    AFL announced 2012 schedule today.


  47. Mike Felber Says:

    This site has been moribund for a couple of daaaaze. No news on how Cameron is doing?

  48. Bob Says:

    1. @ 47 Cameron is the only one who could provide an update, noy us.
    2, Sabathia is on the Dl, which leads us to 3.
    3. Derek Lowe is on the Yankees.

  49. John Says:

    Sorry folks, I’ve been on the move all week. I’ll come up with something later.

    Brewers bullpen has lost two more games…against the Astros.

  50. Bob Says:

    John, are you stationed in CT now?

  51. Mike Felber Says:

    Not if someone has been in contact with him off the web site Bob, as folks sometimes do here. Though it seems more likely not for Cameron, I recall Chuck offering to help him.

  52. Chuck Says:

    Not aware of too many homeless shelters with Wi-Fi access.

    Hopefully he’s doing OK and gets situated quickly.

    Life is way more important than talking about baseball on the internet.

  53. Bob Says:

    The Orioles acquired J.C. Romero

  54. Bob Says:

    Johnny Pesky passed awat. R.I.P.

  55. Brautigan Says:

    Aw, that’s too bad. He was a great guy. Used to see him a lot in Portland, but not much in the past 15 years. I still see his brother Vince a lot. But, it is inevitable……

  56. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree Chuck, just wondering if there was word of him. Though libraries & Apple stores at least have free internet access, he likely is preoccupied now. Hope he is well.

  57. Chuck Says:

    I got an email from him a few days ago..same address..but it was auto-responder spam…usually it’s a link to Canadian generic Viagra, now I don’t even open them.

    I’ve threatened him..literally..to knock it off, but I guess now’s not the time to worry about it.

  58. Mike Felber Says:

    Hey man, know that he did not send that. This happens to most folks over time, had with my E-Mail too. Someone gets your password, uses you as a “spam-bot”. Thing to do is tell him that he is being used as a zombie for SPAM, & just to immediately change his password (best to something complex & hard to break).

    Though he was likely told by other friends.

  59. Bob Says:

    The Yankees signed 2 lefties from Nicaraga.

  60. Raul Says:

    Not sure what the talent is like in Nicaragua. 2nd poorest country in the western hemisphere, I think. There certainly should be high motivation for people from there. But natural ability is probably non-existent. And the Yankees haven’t exactly shown a great track record of developing their raw talent.

  61. Bob Says:

    The Mets acquired Kelly Shoppach for a PTBNL.

  62. Raul Says:

    Kelly Shoppach IS a player to be named later.

  63. Mike Felber Says:

    Rim Shot!

  64. Mike Felber Says:

    How is NYC treating you Raul?

  65. Raul Says:

    Haven’t even gone to the city Mike.

    Saving money. A roundtrip Metro North ticket from Tarrytown to GC is like $22. Doesn’t include the Metro Card to get around the city and when you factor in drinks and food, I’m looking at close to a $100 day. So I’m laying low.

    I could do NYC for less, but considering I have to apply for jobs and may need to take multiple trips to the city for interviews, I can’t afford to spend loosely.

  66. Chuck Says:

    2012 AFL Hall of Fame inductees…Mark Teixeira, Derek Lowe and Ron Washington.

  67. Raul Says:

    mid august and Alcides Escobar is still batting .300

    never would have believed it possible

  68. Raul Says:

    if not for Trout, Cespedes probably takes ROY

  69. Mike Felber Says:

    Rate these guys:

    Mel Ott
    Frank Robinson
    Jimmy Foxx
    Mike Schmidt

    They usually are very near each other in all time rankings, clustering around the late teens. Any strong feelings about who is best, or if there is much difference?

  70. Patrick Says:

    Those guys are hard to rate against each other. Schmidt was the best fielder and also the hitter with the most holes of the four.

    Foxx’s hitting stats are best but the 30’s were similar to the steroid era in terms of inflated numbers.

    I probably would take Robinson first.

  71. Patrick Says:

    How about that Derek Jeter guy? 3rd player in history to have 17 straight years of 150 or more hits, tying Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb. At 38, he leads the AL in hits, on pace for 218. He’s batting .320

    He hit .346 in July and is hitting .379 in August.

    Next year he will probably be the first with 150 hits for 18 straight years.

    According to WAR, if Ramiro Pena(replacement player) was the Yankee SS this year, the Yanks would only have one or 2 less wins.

    Jeter would never say it, but I think he has his eyes set on 4,000 and maybe even Pete Rose. Jeter gets surly when you ask him about his stats or plans but according to Gene “Stick” Michael, 5 years ago Jeter told him he was planning to play 10 more years.

    If he is a guy like Rose, Rickey Henderson or Omar Vizquel, you know, a guy that you have to tear the uniform off of his back, then I think he’ll pass Rose.

  72. Raul Says:

    Jeter trying to stay to reach 4,000 hits would be against the best interest of the Yankees.
    After a crappy May and June, he is hitting better, but his offense barely makes up for his defense now.

    I didn’t realize Ramiro Pena is what they would call Replacement Player. If that’s the case….nevermind

  73. Raul Says:

    Joel Sherman of the NY Post argues, and I’m inclined to agree, that the Nationals are unwise to shut Strasburg down on a innings limit.
    He probably is going to get hurt sooner or later anyway. Gotta take a shot and go all the way.

  74. Chuck Says:

    Wondering what the ulterior motive is for #69.

  75. Chuck Says:

    Dennis Eckersley, on the TBS broadcast last week;

    “If I’m Strasburg and Rizzo comes to tell me on September 15th I’m done for the year, I’m punching him in the mouth, probably more than once”.

    Rizzo claims Strasburg doesn’t know about the shut-down (right), and recently upped his innings limit to 180 from 160.

    I could see them skipping his turn once in awhile or pulling him after five in a blowout game, but there’s no way they’re shutting him down in a pennant race.

    And if they do, then I hope the Nationals get smoked, and I hope Rizzo loses his job.

  76. John Says:

    The whole reason for “protecting your investment” is so that he will be good to go for your team when they’re contending for a pennant.

    Which is right the fuck now.

  77. Patrick Says:

    That whole Strasburg thing is ridiculous. Pitchers are fragile. Simple as that. When they’re good, you pitch them. First sign of discomfort, you shut them down. Until that happens, have them throw 90+ pitches every fifth day until they’re home watching football. Really, I think it hurts them not to.

    And Washington announces to the world that they are going take a preventative health action that will probably lose a chance for a World Series. Brilliant!

    Of course Strasburg is going to pitch in the post season! Eck is right, those are fighting words.

    They will have a doctor check him out and proclaim him fit to go on in an attempt to minimize the egg on their faces.

    Or they will miss the WS and never hear the end of it.

    Concerning Jeter, I see him playing 3B and DH soon. True, he may become a detriment soon but as long as they win and he hits .300, he’s a regular.

  78. John Says:

    Melky Cabrera tested positive for a high testosterone level and has been suspended 50 games…which is just about the rest of the year.

  79. Brautigan Says:

    So that explains Cabrera’s outliers.

    Which means, every time I see a season of outliers, I am going to have to convince myself it was not a by-product of performance enhancing drugs. Good god-damn luck with that. Which again, puts me into a damn pissed off mood and I really don’t want to hear from any apologists right about now.

  80. Raul Says:

    That’s too bad about Melky.

  81. Mike Felber Says:

    Why do you assume an ulterior motive Chuck? Would you if anyone else posted a simple, very routinely done question like rate a few players? That is hyper cynical. I am just curious what folks think, wondering about that question myself.

  82. Bob Says:

    1. Congrats to King Felix on his perfect game.
    2. See you guys tomorrow.

  83. Chuck Says:

    “Why do you assume an ulterior motive Chuck?”

    Track record.

    All of a sudden out of the clear blue you’re asking to rank a select group of players who’ve been retired at least 20 years?

    You must have seen some poll on High Heat Stats or Fangraphs and decided to ask here.

  84. Chuck Says:

    Way to go, Felix…

  85. Raul Says:

    Yankees fans everywhere = let’s get Felix!! We can trade David Phelps and Banuelos for him!


  86. Raul Says:

    Sorry for Hellickson. He pitched a heck of a game also.

  87. Raul Says:

    Hiroki Kuroda is 8th in the AL in ERA and a half run better than CC Sabathia.

  88. Raul Says:

    Oh Bob Saget!

    I just heard Michael Kay say on the air that it is sad for Melky to get caught because Melky could have gotten a 6-7 year deal worth close to 100 million in the offseason.

    That’s right up there with Shaun’s insane comments.

  89. Mike Felber Says:

    Nope, you really are irrationally negative Chuck.

    Many of us have asked things out of “the clear blue”, Raul poses different, not always baseball, academic questions & observations.

    Not discussed on another web site, I TOLD you I thought of it since I saw their rankings near each other (for years). Though if I had seen a poll elsewhere & asked here, how would even that be an “ulterior motive”? It would be curiosity, & a positive thing to ask re: being open minded & curious.

    The vast, overwhelming majority of such questions are my own. And I have no bad “track record”. You have long assigned me Straw Man like characteristics, wrote “1/2 of what you write here is BS”.

    ALL of these things are about your suspicious & unkind state of mind. They do not reflect how I have conducted myself or my character in the slightest.

  90. Chuck Says:

    Kay lost, or soon will, lose a bet to Silva on the Mets’ win total for the year.

    I think Kay had to wear a Mets’ jersey on the air.

    From what Mike said yesterday, it appears Kay has already whelched on it.

  91. John Says:

    “I just heard Michael Kay say on the air that it is sad for Melky to get caught because Melky could have gotten a 6-7 year deal worth close to 100 million in the offseason.”

    That’s what gets me.

    He could’ve gotten that deal only because he was cheating (I mean, he was probably looking at like 5/50 as it was).

    He’d be a 4th outfielder if he didn’t.

  92. Raul Says:

    Chuck’s retweet earlier had a point.

    Apparently these 50 game suspensions aren’t as much of a deterrent as some may have thought.

    My only concern with a lifetime ban on 1st offense is that mistakes can be made. It’s a major concern for me.

  93. Raul Says:

    Good movement on Freddy Garcia’s pitches tonight.

    75 pitches through 5 innings isn’t great. The Rangers lay off a lot of them. But little hit especially hard.

    Jankees lead 3-1

  94. Chuck Says:

    Players are educated on what’s banned and where they are found.

    You actually get a pass on first offense, the 50 gamer is on second offense, so going from 50 games to a year for repeating stupidity is warranted.

    I’m also not overlooking the fact Cabrera has spent the last two off-seasons living with and working out with ARod.

    Apple don’t fall far from the tree.

  95. Chuck Says:

    Watching Freddie Garcia pitch wants to make me run and grab a bat.

  96. Mike Felber Says:


    Anyone think King Felix was getting an expanded K-Zone as per the Manager’s protest?

  97. Raul Says:

    When a pitcher is dealing, he usually gets the questionable calls around the plate. Baseball players know it. They understand it. And they accept it.

    Unless it is something egregious, no one really cares.

    The last thing players want is a goddamn Ques-tec league.

    Frankly, umpires call far more balls that should be strikes, than strikes that should be balls.

  98. Chuck Says:

    Adam Dunn drove in career run #1000 on Monday and hit career HR #399 today.

    Not a good hitter, but great numbers..in seven years or so, he’s Jim Thome.

  99. Chuck Says:

    “Anyone think King Felix was getting an expanded K-Zone as per the Manager’s protest?”

    He probably was, and he deserves it.

  100. Raul Says:

    Fuck a duck.

    Josh Hamilton just hit his 2nd homer off Freddy Garcia and I thought someone shot a gun in the stadium. That was a crack of the bat.

  101. Chuck Says:

    Holy shit..Josh Hamilton just hit an absolute fucking BOMB…

    My goodness.

  102. Raul Says:

    Lol @ Jim Thome.

    Btw, I’m against Thome for the HOF.

  103. Chuck Says:

    Me too.

  104. Chuck Says:

    Not as much as Frank Thomas…but still a no.

  105. John Says:

    That’s ridiculous. Both are deserving and both will get in on the first ballot.

  106. Raul Says:

    Thome may well get in on the 1st ballot.

    I just don’t agree.

  107. Chuck Says:

    Most athletes are smaller in person than they appear to be on TV.

    The difference between me at 5′10″ and Mike Trout at 6′1″ isn’t that much, and I’d bet my house he doesn’t weigh 210..probably closer to 200 or so, which is ten pounds or so more than I am.

    I’ve seen Hamilton on the field playing in ST and never thought much about it, but when I met him two years ago, I couldn’t believe how big he is.

    He’s a guy who’s bigger in person, he’s 6′4″, probably 240, and doesn’t look close to either.

  108. Chuck Says:

    Good point by Rick Sutcliffe..Melky was NL MVP, NL won and has homefield advantage.

    Selig should give home field to the AL because NL win was tainted.

  109. Raul Says:

    World Series home field determined by ASG is one of the dumber things Selig did.

  110. John Says:

    Did you…see the final score of that ASG?

  111. Chuck Says:

    Come on, people.

    Melky is a fourth OF with the Yanks and gets shipped to Atlanta, who DFA’s him.

    He spends the off-season “working out” with ARod and shows up in KC looking like a new man. (Honestly didn’t recognize him) and proceeds to have a 200 hit season.

    And the Royals TRADE him for a guy with an ERA of over six..and who has since been released?

    Then goes to San Francisco..on a one year deal..gets AS MVP and yet Giants won’t talk long-term deal and were basically begging for an OF at the deadline?

    One plus one always equals two.

  112. Chuck Says:

    One more AB for Hamilton

  113. Mike Felber Says:




  114. Mike Felber Says:


  115. Len Says:

    @Mike Felber

    From your list:

    4 great players and 3 of them are actually kind of underrated (Ott, Robinson and Schmidt)

    1-Mike Schmidt-great peak, great career, probably could have won 4-5 MVP and was actually kind of underrated for the first part of his career (1974-1979). Was the best position player in baseball from 1974-1987. Best stat, led the league in HR 8 times, only Ruth did it more times also won 10 gold gloves.

    2-Mel Ott-Extremely underrated player which is odd because he played in NYC. Best player to never win an MVP award probably should have won in ‘32, ‘38. Best stat: finished in top 3 in HR 14 only Ruth with more, finished in the top 5 in HR 16 times only Ruth with more.

    3-F. Robinson-Another forgotten superstar that gets overlooked probably because he was playing outfield during Mays & Aaron’s time period. Best Stat: finished in the top 10 in Slugging Percentage 17 times tied with Stan Musial. Only Hank Aaron did it more times. Finished in the top in HR 15 times, only Ruth, Aaron, and Ott did more.

    4-Jimmie Foxx-Best Peak out of the whole group but his career ended rather abruptly, the War could have had something to do with it. Big huge massive guy who finished in the top 5 in HR 12 times. Was the best position player in baseball from 1932-1939.

  116. Len Says:

    It’s silly to say that Jim Thome doesn’t belong in the HOF:


    611 home runs- 7th all time
    1695 RBI-24th all time
    1743 Walks-7th all time
    1988 Runs Created-23rd all time
    4132 Time on Base-37th all time
    1581 Runs Scored-51rst all time

    .555 slugging percentage 24th all time
    .956 ops, 18th all time

    Below Average fielder but the only reason you can make for him not being in the HOF is if he did steroids which he never tested positive for and has he ever been implicated as using steroids.

  117. Chuck Says:


    No one said Thome doesn’t belong in the HOF, only that Raul and I wouldn’t vote for him.

    Do me a favor, go to BR and take out his 1000+ games as a DH..and then make your argument.

  118. Raul Says:

    I’ve become a small HOF guy over time.

    No Thome for the HOF. Played in a steroid era, wasn’t ever a special all around player and only accumulated milestones due to DH.

    I don’t care what other people think the HOF is. I don’t care that Rabbit Maranville is in. I wouldn’t have elected him anyway.

  119. Raul Says:

    Matt Harvey with a 3-0 lead on the Reds in the 5th.

    5th strikeout just now on Jay Bruce.

  120. Chuck Says:

    I’ve always been a small Hall guy too, but that doesn’t have any bearing on my thoughts on Thome or some other players.

    The HOF is for the truly great “all around” players, being great at one thing..hitting homers, getting cheap saves, stealing bases, doesn’t make you a HOFer.

    Jim Thome is in, and Dale Murphy isn’t?

    If you’re OK with that, I’d like to know why.

  121. Raul Says:

    Jason Bay with an opposite field homer.
    6th of the year.

    He put a good swing on it. Nice shot.

    I’m just reminded what a disappointment Bay has been though.

  122. Raul Says:

    5-0 Mets

    Tejada doubles in Shoppach.

  123. Raul Says:

    And 6-0 after Baxter drives in Tejada.

    Homer Bailey keeps getting lit up. He’s out. I think they said he’s allowed like 20 runs in his last 20 innings or something like that.

  124. Raul Says:

    Earlier today after the Rangers took a 4-0 lead in the 6th, the Yankees rallied to take a 5-4 lead in the bottom of the inning.

    Then the bullpen proceeded to allow 6 runs to the Rangers in the final 3 innings, blowing a chance to sweep the series.

    According to the box score, Joba Chamberlain faced 10 batters in his 1.1 innings of work. Though Clay Rapada and Boone Logan weren’t any better.

  125. Raul Says:

    Through 6 innings of work, Matt Harvey has allowed 1 hit, zero walks and struck out 7. The kid is dealing.
    Nice job against a team like the Reds.

  126. Raul Says:

    A couple of doubles ends the shutout. 6-1 mets.

  127. Chuck Says:

    If you’re sitting in a room next March doing your fantasy draft, and you have a choice between Harvey and Zack Wheeler, who are you taking?

  128. Raul Says:


    I think both have the stuff to be successful in the Majors. And Wheeler is a bit younger, but I’ll go with Harvey.

  129. Raul Says:

    I think before long, Wheeler will end up with injuries.

  130. Raul Says:

    Trivia question in Mets game:

    Name the 3 players that have played 19 seasons for the Reds.

  131. Raul Says:

    Francisco isn’t fooling anyone.

    This Mets bullpen…stings to watch.

  132. Raul Says:

    Reds score 3 off Francisco. In comes Rauch for what is now a “Save” situation.

  133. Raul Says:

    Dang it. I missed the answer to the trivia question.

  134. Chuck Says:

    I would say Rose would have to be one.

    Concepcion, maybe? And Bench?

  135. Chuck Says:

    Concepcion is right, Bench is not.

  136. Raul Says:

    It looks like Larkin is the other.

  137. Len Says:

    Thome has only played 528 games at DH not 1000 out of 2533 in the majors and most of those came during the past 5 seasons in limited play.

    Reggie Jackson played 630 games at DH, so by your logic Reggie Jackson isn’t a HOF? George Brett played 504 games at DH and Eddie Murray played 524 games at DH, so they’re not HOF’s either?

    From 1991-2007 Thome played 2011 games with 130 games at DH. That’s about 6% of his games. He put up a .281/.409/.565, .974 ops, 507 home runs, 1398 Rbi, 1338 runs scored, 1459 walks, 3863 total bases.

    From 1995-2007:

    He finished in the top 5 in HR, Seven times
    He finished in the top 5 in On Base %, Seven times
    He finished in the top 5 in OPS, Seven times
    He finished in the top 10 in slugging % 10 times

    Dale Murphy isn’t a HOF because he got a somewhat late start because he came up a catcher and then went to first before settling in at CF at 24 years old. At his peak from 1980-1987, he was one of the Ten best players in baseball. His problem was that he had 6 very good years 2 OK years and then basically nothing.

  138. Raul Says:

    Thome has 808 games as a DH and like 40% of his at bats are as a DH.

    And I don’t give a shit what Reggie Jackson, George Brett or Eddie Murray did. I wasn’t talking about Reggie Jackson, George Brett or Eddie Murray.

  139. Len Says:

    You’re right, I checked his splits and he has 808 games at DH, 3416 plate appearances. He had 10277 plate appearances so that’s 33% of his career plate appearances at DH.

    But what’s you’re point, players that DH shouldn’t be elected into the HOF? Based on what? The DH has been around for almost 40 years it’s part of baseball. They’ve elected 10 players with over 800 plate appearances at DH, 5 players had over 2500 plate appearances at DH.

    R. Jackson had 2500 plate appearances as a DH
    G. Brett had 2100 plate appearances as a DH
    E. Murray had 2411 plate appearances as a DH
    P. Molitor had 5334 plate appearances as a DH
    J. Rice had 2256 plate appearances as a DH
    D. Winfield had 1738 plate appearances as a DH
    C. Yastremski had 1709 plate appearances as a DH
    F. Robinson had 1310 plate appearances as a DH
    B. Williams had 978 plate appearances as a DH
    H. Aaron had 821 plate appearances as a DH

  140. Raul Says:

    The point is that Thome wasn’t a good enough all around player.

    He may well have better statistics than some other hall of famers.
    So what?

  141. Len Says:

    Based on what? He was one of the premiere offensive players in baseball from 1995-2004 before he ever became a DH. Here’s his seasons:

    1995: .314/.438/.558, 28 HR, 73 Rbi, 92 runs, 97 walks (strike year)
    1996: .311/.450/.612, 38, HR, 116 Rbi, 122 runs, 123 walks
    1997: .286/.483/.579, 40 HR, 102 Rbi, 104 runs, 120 walks
    1998: .293/.413/.584, 30 Hr, 85 rbi, 89 runs, 89 walks
    1999: .277/.426/.540, 33 Hr, 108 rbi, 101 runs, 127 walks
    2000: .269/.398/.531, 37 HR, 106 rbi, 106 runs, 116 walks
    2001: .291/.416/.624, 49 HR, 124 rbi, 101 runs, 111 walks
    2002: .304/.445/.677, 52 HR, 122 rbi, 101 runs, 122 walks
    2003: .266/.385/.573, 47 HR, 131 rbi, 111 runs, 111 walks
    2004: .274/.396/.581, 42 HR, 105 rbi, 97 runs, 104 walks

    How is that not a dominate offensive player? He could have played 1b in 2006 but he signed with the White Sox and they already had Paul Konerko.

  142. John Says:

    If Thome had ok utilities up those numbers in a bigger market than Cleveland, he would feel like a much more dominant hitter.

    Your standard has to be pretty damn high to not let in a guy with Those’s raw numbers.

    Only 5-tool greats can make it? Sounds like a Hall with 25 or so people in it.

  143. Patrick Says:

    I think the guys who put up huge numbers that didn’t test positive should be first ballot HOFers.

    I look at it this way, if Thome and Fred McGriff never cheated, they were dominant in a world of cheaters. Conventional wisdom says steroids=HR but we now know that steroids also equals 10 mph on your fastball and .5 seconds faster on the bases and gap power instead of singles or flyouts.

    My thinking says if guys like Clemens weren’t juicing, Thome and McGriff’s already HOF numbers would be much bigger.

    Everyone seems to hate the arguement that if so and so is in then so and so should be in also. Not me. If Dawson and Rice are in, McGriff should be a lock.

  144. Raul Says:

    Only 5-tool greats can make it? Sounds like a Hall with 25 or so people in it.

    What is a generation as far as baseball is concerned? 15-20 years? Maybe 4 or 5 guys in a generation should be elected… So maybe the number of HOFers should be closer to 25 in my eyes. Though I’d go around 60-70….not including managers/executives or Negro League Players.

  145. Raul Says:

    Seriously, how long will Bobby Valentine last in Boston?

  146. John Says:

    The Red Sox problems have more to do with their 1-2 starters rocking 5.20 ERA’s.

    Also fun:

    The Red Sox have outscored their opponents by 36 runs. The Orioles have been outscored by 44.

  147. Len Says:

    Well that’s just a total redefinition to what the baseball HOF is if you want to reduce the number from 237 players to 70 players. That’s about 25 pitchers and 50 position players. Derek Jeter, Luke Appling, Nolan Ryan and Paul Waner would be borderline HOF. You would only have one catcher in the HOF (Bench)

    R. Jackson, Yogi Berra, and Frisch are out so are Heilmann, G. Carter and B. Larkin. Take out Jim Palmer, Carl Hubbell, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, Tony Gwynn and Carl Hubbell. Take out Duke Snider, Roberto Alomar, Erinie Banks and Joe Cronin. Take out McCovey, Dawson, Ashburn and Billy Williams. Take out Juan Marichal, Lou Boudreau, Dennis Eckersly, and Bob Feller. Take out Jim Bunning, Harmon Killebrew, Early Winn, Bill Dickey and Hank Greenberg.

    And then add about another hundred HOF.

  148. Bob Says:

    The first class elected had 3 position players and 2 pitchers.

    4. Johnson
    5. Mathewson
    6. Given what we know about the players from that era, were the voters too strict, or spot on? Are we right to elect an Ozzie Smith, or should the standard be offensive based only?You guys make the call.

  149. John Says:

    Raul’s standard isn’t better or worse than anyone else’s, just different.

    As it stands, baseball’s Hall of Fame is relatively exclusive compared to basketball and football.

    Using satan’s friend WAR, the worst player in Raul’s HOF would be Paul Molitor (#70 all-time).

    And to answer your question, Bob, yes…defense counts in baseball (not an argument for Thome by any means).

  150. Len Says:

    Well, they were working on a 60 year backlog in 1936 so you were going to get the best of the best in that first election in 1936.

    What I would have done is limited the selection to only two players a year but every year you must select two. The writers have to select ten players and then the top two vote getters would be elected every year. 2 a year since 1936 would give you about 160 players in the HOF today. No veteran’s committee and everyone remains eligible. No binge voting and cronyism like the 1920’s Giants. Keep Managers and executives on separate ballots once ever 5 years you can elect 2. You could have had a separate election for Negro league players. You could have expanded it to 3 players in the 1990’s to catch up with expansion. That would give you about 180 players, something like 120 position players and 60 pitchers.

    Hypothetically it would have looked something like this:

    1936: Ruth, Johnson
    1937: Cobb, Wagner
    1938: Mathewson, Young
    1939: Speaker, Lajoie
    1940: Alexander, Sisler
    1940: Wright, McGraw (Manager/Pioneer/executive)

  151. Len Says:

    Raul’s system would basically be a 1 candidate per year selection since that would give you about 75 players. I guess he would advocate maybe two managers/executives every 10 years which give you about 16.

    His system would have looked something like this:

    1936: Ruth
    1937: Johnson
    1938: Cobb
    1939: Wagner
    1940: Mathewson
    1941: Young
    1942: Speaker
    1943: Lajoie
    1944: Alexander
    1945: Sisler
    1945: Wright (Manager/exectutive)

  152. Raul Says:

    I wish you weren’t so butt hurt just because I don’t think Jim Thome is a HOFer, Len.

  153. Raul Says:

    Hahahaha @ Satan’s friend.

  154. Len Says:

    “butt hurt” wow, i’ve never heard of that expression?? I had to look that up.

    I could care less if Jim Thome is elected to the HOF, it’s not like I’m a fan of his or anything but his Hof candidacy is basically a no-brianer. If you’re not going to elect a guy with 611 home runs who hasn’t been connected to PED, then why even bother having a HOF?

  155. Chuck Says:

    “Thome has only played 528 games at DH not 1000 out of 2533 in the majors and most of those came during the past 5 seasons in limited play.”

    Counting this season, Thome has 809 career games as a DH, out of 2533 career games played. Take away his 146 PH appearances and one PR, that’s 34% of his career appearances. It’s 33% either way you look at it.

    As a DH, Thome has 197 homers, from 611 that’s 414 for his career.

    There are quite a few player WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than he is/was that are in the high 300’s, low 400’s who will never sniff the HOF.

    He led the league in homers once (in Philly), walks and strikeouts three times each, OPB and slugging once.

    That’s it.

    Nice numbers, yes.

    Somewhat cheapened by the steriod era, yes.

    If every other career number Thome has remains unchanged except his homer totals, he’s not a HOFer..DH or not.

    And remember something else…both Edgar Martinez and Harold Baines were better than Thome and neither has a shot at the Hall.

  156. Chuck Says:

    Sorry, Patrick, but the words “great” and “dominate” don’t belong in the same sentence with Fred McGriff.

  157. John Says:

    I wouldn’t put Sammy Sosa in the Hall of Fame even if he had been clean.

  158. Chuck Says:

    You could add McGwire to that list, too.

  159. John Says:

    Holy shit, Harold Baines wasn’t even in the same universe as Jim Thome.

  160. Chuck Says:

    Every Sunday when I go to church I give thanks for my family, our health, having a nice house and a job, and that John doesn’t have a HOF vote.

  161. John Says:

    It’s ridiculous to even mention Harold Baines in the same sentence as Jim Thome.

  162. Chuck Says:

    Patrick mentioned McGriff, so I was just following along with the game?

    How the hell would I know he was being serious?

  163. John Says:

    I wouldn’t put McGriff in either.

  164. Chuck Says:

    Sosa played two more years than McGwire, but almost 500 fewer games, and yet McGwire has the higher career WAR.

    I agree John, even WITH steriods Sammy Sucked.

  165. Chuck Says:

    These next few years are going to be tough, I’m almost glad I don’t have a vote.

  166. Len Says:

    Harold Baines?? Harold Baines lifetime line was .289/.356/.465, .820 ops with 384 HR. Jim Thome is at .277/.402/.555, .957 ops with 611 home runs. Thome is 18th all time in ops, Baines is 296th.

    You don’t just subtract a players offensive numbers while they were a DH? George Brett doesn’t lose 3000 hits because he was DH? you don’t put asterisks by Eddie Murray’s 3000 hits and 500 hr because he had 2400 plate appearances as a DH. Reggie Jackson doesn’t lose his 500 HR status because he had 2500 plate appearances as a DH.

    You make it sound like Thome padded his HR totals by playing DH and batting .220 with a .250 on base percentage. In 3 years with the White Sox 2006-2008 he hit .269/.396/.554, .950 ops with 111 home runs, 295 rbi, and 280 runs scored. How is that not productive or valuable to a team? In 2010 in only 340 plate appearances he had a 25 home runs and a 1.039 ops. How is that not valuable DH or not?

    If he was clean how are his numbers “cheapened” by the steroid. If anything his numbers look more impressive because he was doing it without PED.

    Like I said I can care less whether Thome is elected into the HOF but whether you like it or not he’s going to be elected. They’re not going to leave out a guy who’s 7th on the all time HR list. The only thing that changes that is if he’s linked to PED in some way.

  167. Chuck Says:

    The HOF has set a precedent in keeping out guys with what should have been good enough HOF peaks but for whatever reason didn’t have the long career value.

    That’s why a lot of people are still surprised not only that Kirby Puckett got in, but that he was first ballot.

    Munson, Mattingly, Allen, Belle, etc come to mind.

    The DH unfairly adds to the career length of some players who otherwise would have been forced out of the game due to injury or poor defensive performance and turned decent 12-15 year careers into 20 year HOF careers.

    If you don’t have a problem with that, then that’s on you, not the rest of us.

    Same with closers.

    There is nothing “HOF-ish” about Mariano Rivera other than his cheap save totals.

    Starting to beat the dead horse again here, so I’ll be moving along now.

  168. Patrick Says:

    I’m dead-serious about McGriff. 503 HR including his 10 in post season.

    For 15 consecutive years from 1988-2002 McGriff averaged 154 games, 31.5 HR (458 of his 493), 98 RBI and 85 runs. Most years his OBP was close to .400 and sometimes over. Plus, he missed 68 games due to strike while he was in his prime.

    I would argue that is one of the best 15 year streaks in history, certainly the best for any non-HOFer, juiced or otherwise.

    His top two comps are McCovey and Stargell and he is approx. 40th alltime in runs and rbi combined with 2,899

    If he accomplished all of that cleanly while some of his opponents were juicing, then Curtis is easily a HOF guy.

  169. Len Says:

    Well, I think Puckett was a mistake based on a emotions due to his illness. I think he was also well like by the writers.

    I think Allen should have been elected years ago when you consider the dead-ball era he played in.

    Well, I think you’re right in a way that the DH helped prop up some players stats like career hits, Bucker, Baines, or Dave Parker. I don’t think any of those 3 players has a chance at the HOF.

    As long as you’re still productive like Paul Molitor, Jim Thome or Frank Thomas, I don’t see why their productivity should be penalized to the point of no-value.

    again it doesn’t really matter what you or I think because barring some PED link Thome is going to be elected.

  170. Patrick Says:

    LOL, I mean FRED!!! I think Curtis is(was) the diminutive substitute WR who was on the Gators about 10 years ago! I’ve done that before too, it’s short-circuited in my brain.

    If you’re going to make a case for a guy’s HOF credentials, you should at least know his name.

  171. Bob Says:

    I thought you meant either Granderson or Enis ( From Penn State)

  172. Raul Says:

    Curtis Enis was terrible.

    A lot of college RBs amounted to nothing in the pros. Right, Rashaan Salaam?

  173. Chuck Says:

    RBI’s and runs scored are team contextual and really not important to the individual player.

    At least not to the brain dead sabermetric community.

    I mean, holy shit, guy is responsible for almost 2900 runs and he gets pissed on because he didn’t walk enough?

  174. Lefty33 Says:

    “As long as you’re still productive like Paul Molitor, Jim Thome or Frank Thomas, I don’t see why their productivity should be penalized to the point of no-value.”

    Why do you think they were productive Len? It’s 100% because the DH tacked on years to their careers that would not have existed without it. Without the DH Thome has no value because he’s either a P/T bit player or he’s retired because he can’t play the field.

    Article after article keeps yapping about how Thome is now a lock HOF player because he got past 600. His only calling card is his HR total. How many would he have hit without the DH?

    The last time he played a double digit number of games in the field was in 2005.

    He’s hit 181 home runs from ‘06 until today.

    Do you seriously think he hits half of that if he’s forced to play the field or if he’s relegated to PH duty only? He played 4 games of 1B for the Phillies this year before he reinjured his back and then missed the better part of the next two months.

    Even with being a F/T DH he’s only played more than 130 games once in the last five years. How well would he have held up playing in the field?

    Without the DH, he never sees 600 and he also never sees 500.

    Without a DH, McGriff’s numbers would be probably be a lot better than Thome’s and McGriff has no chance. Why should Thome have a chance? If not for the DH he’s toast by probably 2007 with somewhere in the neighborhood of 450-460 at best instead of 600+.

    It sucks that some guys have long term physical issues but to me they need to be inducted based on what their peers did compared to them and having a Jim Thome inducted when his last 150-175 home runs came playing P/T doesn’t wash when guys like Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Robinson, Killebrew, and Griffey played both sides of the game for mostly their entire careers not matter how hurt, hung over, or whatever they were.

  175. John Says:

    No one is comparing Jim Thome to Babe Ruth.

    But it’s not just his home runs. Look at his rate numbers. Incredible.

  176. Lefty33 Says:

    Yes John it’s just about his home runs.

    Who gives a shit about his rate numbers because he’s not getting inducted based on that. Without his HR total he’s got a bunch of nothing.

    Without 600 he’s got nothing.

    There were analysts, prognosticators, and BBWAA writers speaking out when he got to 500 that there was serious doubts about him getting any real HOF consideration and that it would take more to add to his totals and that’s where the DH comes in.

    Without the DH he never sees 600, he never sees 500 and he also never sees year five on the HOF ballot either.

  177. John Says:

    No, because here’s a fun fact: BBWAA writers are, as a group, becoming less retarded.

    Whether or not a player “feels” like a hall of famer is no longer as important as actually being good at baseball.

    But yeah. Let’s pretend his OBP and SLG don’t matter and let’s ignore 180 home runs because we don’t like the DH. It’s part of the fucking game. As is always the case, a player is evaluated in relation to his peers, and Thome’s peers had the same Damon access to the DH that he did.

  178. Chuck Says:

    “No, because here’s a fun fact: BBWAA writers are, as a group, becoming less retarded.”

    I agree, because Bagwell and Raines aren’t in.

  179. Patrick Says:

    McGriff and Larkin both played from 1986-2004

    McGriff managed to get over 1100 more PA during the same span

    McGriff is .284/.377/.509/.886 Larkin is .295/.371/.444/.815

    Both had 441 2B and Larkin had 52 more 3B but McGriff had 295 more HR, Larkin stole 307 more bases.

    McGriff had 2899 runs and rbi while Larkin only had 2289, 610 less!

    They were both very close to average fielding their positions. I get the SS is a premium position thing but a guy like McGriff(lefty) is only eligible to play 1B or OF

    McGriff had 931 more total bases

    McGriff beats him across the board except for triples and steals yet Larkin cruises in and McGriff doesn’t get a sniff.

    Is it even possible to spin it that Larkin had the better career? I would say anyone of us would prefer to have McGriff’s.

    So no, I don’t think the BBWAA is becoming less retarded at all.

  180. Chuck Says:

    John, I respect what you do for a living and how much it takes, and it seems to me you use forums like this to reach into your inner Lennie Small on you down time as a way to decompress.

    You’re a sabermetric guy, and if anyone knows about context within a number it’s you.

    There is no way you can sit wherever you are and discount Thome’s numbers as a DH.

    If the DH was universal between the leagues, then, yeah, you have to consider them, but when only a handful of position players per year have the opportunity to DH, and even fewer to do it full time, there has to be a consideration to the legitimacy of their numbers.

    What I said earlier hasn’t been addressed..probably because it can’t.

    Take 200 homers off Thome’s career total, and LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE AS IT IS, and he’s not a HOFer.

    He’s getting in because of homers only..period, no debate, and he has the total he has because of the DH..period, no debate.

    Anyone with voting rights who DOESN’T consider that should have his credentials revoked.

  181. Chuck Says:

    Larkin is not a HOFer Patrick, the fact he got voted in doesn’t change that.

    The HOF is a far better place with Larkin and McGriff out than with them both in.

  182. Chuck Says:

    Russell Martin has a homer tonite and two warning track fly balls..fifteen more feet and he’d have a three homer game and wherever she is Alyssa Milano would have an orgasm..and that poor sap she’s married to would have thought he did it.

    She’s the world’s most famous groupie.

  183. John Says:

    Barry Larkin is easily a top-10 all-time SS. McGriff is maybe a top-25 1b, but that’s stretching it.

    I’m not gonna just pretend DH at-bats don’t count. That’s ridiculous. Last I checked, those home runs count on the scoreboard.

    With the DH, you have to assess a penalty (great Satan does this). You simply have to do more on offense for it to be worth it.

    You don’t pretend it never happened.

    And to your other point, Chuck: there are 14 DH spots open, and a bunch of them are filled with scrubs.

  184. Patrick Says:

    Yeah, I’m not going to lose any sleep about it but I would like someone who thinks Larkin should be in and McGriff shouldn’t to try and explain their reasoning.

    I think Rollie Fingers got in because of his mustache, which I think is probably legit. It’s a great ’stach. His stats on the other hand, not dominant. One of my favorites, Goose Gossage, also has a better mustache than stats.

    The DH/demerits arguement is also legit but don’t you think Thome would’ve played in the field at least long enough to hit 500? He just didn’t have to. He’s going to be in the Hall but you guys who are against it have valid points. One thing I’ll say about Thome is he is very fragile for a DH.

    Mantle would’ve hit for a few more years with a DH, maybe add 60 HR and got close to 600 but he would’ve been loaded by the 7th inning if he didn’t have to play the field.

    I hate the DH in every way. It skews the game. Using stats, you can’t even judge AL pitchers against NL. I’ve hated it for 40 years now, I didn’t think it could possibly last the 70’s and here we are.

    McGriff has played the 3rd most games at 1B in history!

  185. Raul Says:


  186. Raul Says:

    DH is part of the game.

    So are holds. I wouldnt elect someone because he has the all-time holds record, though.

  187. John Says:

    I hate the DH too.

    That’s why I set higher standards for it.

    Edgar Martinez was a fantastic hitter. But he DH’d for almost all of his career, which did’t feature many PA’s.

    As a 3b, he’s in. As a 1b…probably. As a DH, no way.

    With Thome, you want to deduct 200 homers, which is absurd. But even if you do that, he has over 400 and nobody in the pre-DH era had over 400 dingers without getting inducted. So what’s the problem? He loses his padding, just like, say Kinder or Greenberg or anyone else?

  188. Chuck Says:

    Counting Adam Dunn, who needs one, there are 25 players between 400 and 499 on the career HR list.

    Nine of them are HOFers..Gehrig, Musial, Stargell, Winfield, Yastrzemski, Dawson, Ripken, Billy Williams, and Duke Snider.

    I’ve seen arguments against Stargell, Winfield, Dawson and Williams.

    There are three no brainers..Pujols, Chipper and Piazza.

    There is one guy who likely will get in, but has and will continue to wait..Bagwell.

    That’s 13 of 25, just over 50%..the other dozen have no chance..McGriff, Delgado, Canseco, Guerrero, Kingman, Juan Gonzalez, Andruw Jones, Jason Giambi, Darrell Evans, Paul Konerko, and David Ortiz.

    Like I said when this conversation started..in seven years or so we’ll be talking Adam Dunn the same as we are Thome today.

    Having 400 homers used to punch your ticket..we are now at a place, with or without steriods, where 500 isn’t a guarantee.

    MLB blackballed Kingman because they didn’t want him to get to 500 and have to elect a one dimensional DH..do you expect things to be different today?

  189. Lefty33 Says:

    “No, because here’s a fun fact: BBWAA writers are, as a group, becoming less retarded”

    And the proof of that will be what, when they vote in Morris next year?

    Yeah, there’s a solid choice.

    You make your stupid comment all the time about Rice getting voted in because he was “a feared hitter” well voting for Morris is the pitching equivilant of that so don’t start with the less retarded stuff because they are just as retarded as always.

  190. John Says:

    “McGriff, Delgado, Canseco, Guerrero, Kingman, Juan Gonzalez, Andruw Jones, Jason Giambi, Darrell Evans, Paul Konerko, and David Ortiz.”

    Right – all guys who got there in the DH era, many of whom DH’d.

    Jim Thome also played in the DH era and hit 200 more HR. So if you want to compare him to his relative peers, he blows them out of the water.

    If you want to put Jim Thome in a historical context and cut his career off after 2005 so as to not include DH time, you have a .281/.408/.562 line (149 OPS+) with 430 home runs. Pre-1973, guys couldn’t pad their numbers with the DH, which is a big reason why 400 was enough to punch your ticket.

    Either way, he should be in.

    It’s not like anyone’s saying that Thome is comparable to Willie Mays as a ballplayer because they both have over 600 home runs. No one’s saying that. But certainly, he compares at least somewhat favorably with Willie McCovey, Eddie Murray, and Hank Greenberg who were no-doubters themselves.

  191. John Says:

    “And the proof of that will be what, when they vote in Morris next year?”

    That’s not going to happen. Not with that ballot. Not with the voting tendencies of newer voters.

  192. Lefty33 Says:

    “That’s not going to happen. Not with that ballot. Not with the voting tendencies of newer voters.”

    Hate to call bullshit on you John but…… bullshit.

    His totals have been going up for the past six years.

    I’ll give you a hint that it’s not the senior voters that have been having a change of heart. It’s the same younger metric-minded “less retarded” voters that pushed Blyleven over the top.

    As I’m sure you already know, no one with a vote total as high as Morris had last year has ever not made it and with two more cracks he’s as good as in.

  193. John Says:

    “Like I said when this conversation started..in seven years or so we’ll be talking Adam Dunn the same as we are Thome today.”

    Adam Dunn has a 126 OPS+, and that’s dropping as he ages. Thome is finishing at 147ish. And while Thome wasn’t ever going to win a gold glove, he was at least passable. Dunn is historically bad in the field…so much so that he actually grades out as a below average player even if you ignore his 2011 season.

    These guys really aren’t that close.

    “MLB blackballed Kingman because they didn’t want him to get to 500 and have to elect a one dimensional DH..do you expect things to be different today?”

    1) Wasn’t he a major jerk? Wasn’t that why no one wanted him after a while?
    2) Huh? Jim Thome IS getting contracts to play additional seasons as a 1-dimensional DH. He hasn’t been blackballed by anyone.
    3) The lowest OBP of Thome’s career was .359 with Cleveland in 1994 as a youngster. The highest OBP of Kingman’s career was .343. Jim Thome at his worst reached base significantly more often than Kingman at his best. Kingman has a putrid .302 career OBP…over 100 points worse than Thome.
    4) Kingman hit .210/.255/.431 in his last year. Sure, he hit 30+ HR. But that’s literally all he did. He made outs 75% of the time. No one wants that on their team, especially if the person doing it is a world-class asshole.

    And no, you weren’t actually comparing them; but their respective situations are very different is my point.

    And ignoring the whole package and looking just at home runs…Kingman needed the DH to eek out another 100 HR and get to the point that Thome was already at when he first became a DH.

  194. John Says:

    “It’s the same younger metric-minded “less retarded” voters that pushed Blyleven over the top.”

    Because Blyleven was actually good enough.

    Blyleven ranks 12th all-time in WAR for pitchers, in between Christy Freaking Mathewson and Gaylord Perry.

    Morris? He ranks 145th. He’s behind Javier Vazquez and Al Leiter.

    So, “metrics-minded” voters won’t vote for him and the body as a whole will be busy electing some truly great players from next year’s ballot.

  195. Lefty33 Says:

    “So, “metrics-minded” voters won’t vote for him and the body as a whole will be busy electing some truly great players from next year’s ballot.”

    LOL, you’re funny.

    Only you could be so full of yourself to play everything from both sides.

    I love it when you claim that the younger metric minded voters are some sort of a growing group with growing influence that would “never” vote for players like Morris yet in the past few years we’ve had turds and suspect choices like Larkin, Dawson, Rice, Gossage, and Sutter.

    Sorry John but guys don’t get to 75-85 percent without voters from the old school, new school, and everything in between all doing the same thing.

    I’ll bet you a Benjamin that Morris makes it in his last two cracks and when he does it will only be because of support from younger metric minded voters in addition to whomever his base of support is and to suggest anything else is pure ignorance of how the process is and works.

  196. Len Says:

    I personally don’t understand the fascination the writers have with Morris. He wasn’t the best pitcher of the 80’s by a long shot, Dave Stieb was. The 1980’s overall was kind of a down period in general for pitchers because the beginning of the decade was the ending of a lot of great pitching careers and a lot of the best pitchers of the decade didn’t start until mid-decade.

    I don’t know, if you need a pitcher from the 80’s to get behind they’re much better choices than Morris, (Saberhagen, Steib, Hershiser or Gooden) to name just four. Morris benefitted from having great team-mates who gave him good run support and played good defense behind him especially up the middle (Trammell, Whitaker, Parish, and Lemon).

    Morris is an interesting case because he’s over 60% and I think Gil Hodges is the only player to go over 60% and not get elected. It’s going to be a bit tricky coming up because there are so many good candidates. It’s possible Morris gets lost in the shuffle during his last two selections.

  197. Lefty33 Says:

    “Morris is an interesting case because he’s over 60% and I think Gil Hodges is the only player to go over 60% and not get elected.”

    Morris is also the only guy ever to go over 65% without induction.

    The difference was that Hodges support had hit a ceiling and in his 14th try actually took an almost eleven point dive. Over the last six years Morris has added almost 30% to his vote total.

    “It’s possible Morris gets lost in the shuffle during his last two selections.”

    Just like it’s possible that the writers send a statement against PED’s and anyone even remotely PED related by voting in Morris and by skipping over Bonds, Bagwell, Clemens, and Sosa for starters on future ballots along with the continued cold shoulder to Palmiero and McGwire.

  198. Mike Felber Says:

    Most all of my points have been made above. Raul abandoned the time at DH argument when Len made some airtight arguments about worthy HOF guys playing at least about as much or somewhat more there. To say that Thome had only HRs…Wong on a couple of counts. He also got on base, & to take away something a man does so well that has such an IMPACT on winning is absurd. It is about your total value, however you add it.

    Kingman &even Baines did not approach Thome. Just a glance at peak AND career OPS + tells you that. Crime dog is certainly t least borderline, considering clean, you might want him in.

    I can respect the dislike of the DH, but if something is legal, & few players could do it well, that value added must be considered, with the requisite no defense penalty.
    Though I would like to hear what ~ 400 HR players, more or less, were SO much better than Thome.

    Blyleven & Morris I have helped beat to death, day &* night in terms of real skill & accomplishments, & Bly’s peak was much higher too. Lefty does make good points that it is at best a mixed bag, BBWAA writers may take one step forward, 2 steps backA

  199. Bob Says:

    Not agreeing with this myself, but the fascination with Morris is twofold.

    1. Led the majors in wins during the 1980’s.
    2. His 10 inning shutout in game 7 of the `1991 world series.
    3. His supporters always cite those two things.

  200. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox released Mark Prior.

  201. Patrick Says:

    John, if it were you, would you rather have Larkin’s career stats or McGriff’s? You can throw in Robbie Alomar too.

    Actually, anyone can answer if they feel like it.

  202. Raul Says:

    I didn’t abandon any of my feelings about Thome and his DHing.
    It’s just that I stated my opinion and that’s that.

    No need for 30 comments back and forth between Len and I.

  203. Len Says:

    Lefty 33,

    Yeah Hodges voting pattern is odd and kind of shows how schizophrenic the writers can be. Hodges got 60% of the vote in 1981 and then went down to 49% in 1982, WTF? 11% of the writers felt he was a HOF in 1981 but not in 1982? Makes no sense. Then he finished with 63% in his final year in 1983.

    If I was a betting man I would say that Biggio is the only one elected next year and they snub, Bonds, Clemmens, Piazza, Sosa because of steroids. Schilling will probably get about 30%. Kenny Lofton will probably get little to no support which is unfortunate because he was a very underrated player. I could see maybe Raines, Larry Walker, Edgar Martinez and Trammell getting a little bit of an uptick but I can’t see any of the previous candidates getting a huge surge. Bagwell is still surrounded by steroid controversy. I don’t get the Lee Smith support at 50%? I could see Morris going up but I can’t see him gaining 10% this year.

    2014 gives you Maddux, Glavine, Mussina, Frank Thomas, and Jeff Kent. So Morris could get lost in that group as well. If he goes to the Veteran’s Committee he won’t get in.

  204. Len Says:

    Mike Felber,

    The only eligible player around 400 HR not in the HOF that was better than Thome, IMO was Larry Walker. Much better peak (Best 5 years), slightly better prime (Best 10 years) probably about the same career value. Bagwell was a much better player in every category but he’s been surrounded by PED accusations so I’ll leave him off.

    Dick Allen had a better peak (5 years) and better prime (say 10 year span) but Thome has much better overall career value .

    Dale Murphy had a better peak (Best 5 years) Thome had a better prime (Best 10 years) and Thome a better career obviously.

    Graig Nettles had about the same peak (best 5), about the same prime (best 10) but Thome has more career value.

    Personally I’ve always thought Allen and Nettles should have been elected to the HOF and I would vote for Walker.

  205. Len Says:



    Larkin was a pretty decent fielding short stop when he was young, about average the rest of his career. He was a great base stealer, 379 steal @83%. But he was great offensive player for a short stop. .295/.371/.444, 815 ops, 1381 runs created. His ops is 4th best among short stops since 1947, his runs created is 5th best among short stops since 1947. You can’t find players like that.

  206. Chuck Says:



  207. Chuck Says:

    “…less retarded…”

    Keith Law posted his top five candidates for 2012 AL MVP the other day…Miguel Cabrera wasn’t one of them.

    Keep that in mind when tossing around words like “retarded” and “advanced”

  208. Raul Says:

    Lol @ Thome “obviously” having better career than Murphy.
    Because it isn’t like Thome was the worst 1b in the game over the last 15 years or anything. Giambi aside, I suppose.

  209. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, I never said you abandoned your feelings about Thome & the DH. You changed your rationale from too many DH appearances to a not good enough all around player, after Len showed you others had as much & somewhat more PA as a DH.

    Now if you mean to combine that with alla round play, the only way you can take him out is to justify a fairly radical small hall, which you have begun to do. I just do not agree that so few players per generation or up to 70 players total should be in the Hall. That would be a tighter & more restrictive definition of greatness than fairly represents excellence & dominance.

    As for “all around”, it should be how much total value a guy adds, however he does it. If we just added up tools many players, like Williams would be good, let alone great, at a majority of them. Not saying Those was nearly as good of course. But it is how much you help the team…

    And a 147ish OPS + over a long career is very hard to justify keeping out of the HOF. Forget about raw #s. Say Kingman hangs on to hit those many, if he did it with his real 115 OPS + (which would assume no decline), with his poor defense & nothing but HRs, that would not be enough.

  210. Mike Felber Says:

    Len, can’t argue with any of your player comparisons. Looked up Walker, & in overall contributions even compensating for Coor’s Field, he was better at his peak & ~ same career value.

  211. Bob Says:

    The Cubs and Castro have agreed to a 7-year extension.

  212. Raul Says:

    No. I didn’t change my rationale. I know what I said. And I know what I meant.

    I don’t feel the need to address every single comment or argument Len, John, Chuck, Lefty, Bob, you or anyone else makes.

    There doesn’t need to be a rebuttal to everything. I am not that petty.

  213. Len Says:

    Murphy: .263/.346/.469, .815 ops, 398 hr, 1266 rbi, 1197 runs scored, 1308 runs created, 3125 times on base.

    Thome: .277/.402/.555, .925 ops, 611 hr, 1695 rbi, 1581 runs scored, 1988 runs created, 4132 times on base.

    Thome’s 18th all time in ops, Murphy was 326th. Yeah, I’d say it’s pretty “obvious” that Thome had a better career.

  214. Len Says:


    I think Walker has been too harshly penalized for Coors Field. He has a .313/.400/.565 lifetime line. Ok some of it is from Coors Field but not all of it. He was also a terrific defensive right fielder which kind of gets lost in the shuffle. I think it also hurt him that one of his best seasons (1994) was cut short because of the strike. He put up 44 doubles in only 103 games that year. Injuries also affected him and he actually retired while still productive,

  215. Raul Says:

    Nick Punto and Scott Podsednik are in the lineup for Boston today.

    I thought it was an April Fool’s joke or something.

  216. Chuck Says:

    “There doesn’t need to be a rebuttal to everything.”


  217. Mike Felber Says:

    See I gotta call BS here. I use that language since otherwise it may not be looked at carefully.

    Not that it is intentional. Chuck made explicit what Raul implied. No, it is not necessarily “petty” to rebut anything & everythig you disagree with. Raul you express weariness about threads or discussions of any lengths now. But do not project on others your motivations IF you chose to engage more.

    Many like me enjoy the back & forth, challenge, & if Ego is not too involved, being open to challenging one’s own arguments. You could more easily call it petty to label all who debate more than YOU prefer as petty. But more likely it is just impatience with the engagement, & that negative feeling gets projected on someone who chooses to say more than you do.

    I do not say you switched due to not continuing to argue, but changing the rationale for your argument.

    Len I would be happy to argue with you-if I could find anything to disagree with above. :-)

  218. Raul Says:

    Yes. It IS petty to rebut everything.


  219. Chuck Says:

    #400 for Adam Dunn..bomb to LC off Tim Collins..Dunn and Paul Konerko are first pair of teammates to hit 400th career HR in same season.

  220. Raul Says:

    Congratulations to Adam Dunn.

    Speaking of KC, I hope Cameron is well.

  221. Raul Says:

    Pujols hit his 27th homer of the season.

  222. Mike Felber Says:

    1) There are many things-most things here-I do not rebut, either for lack of an opinion or concern. Or agreeing

    2) To state an opinion without any evidence or argument wakes no sense. Like your Dad saying “Because I said so”.

    3) Why would it bother you if folks disagree? We all do often here, that is that nature of a sports site/barroom discussion. For all the BS about the nature of masculinity, how is it not consistent with it not to mind, to be tolerant of, polite differences? It is thin skinned to mind!

    4) I never would just repeat what someone claimed to attack them. I am not bothered by the claim. But I would be omitting the truth if I did not say that it seems petty to complain about that polite disagreement.

    From web sites with high level debates to a drunken bar, it is routine for guys to say exactly how they feel & where they differ. I also often say yes, this guy is right.

    Should be a non-issue. If I minded your inevitable rebuttal I would be a hypocrite. But repeating an unsupported premise is no argument.

  223. Raul Says:


  224. Mike Felber Says:

    I suppose that means you believe you are being long sufering & tolerant. Compared to lashing out in a juvenile way, yes. But there was never anything to mind.

    I hope that you are taking advantage of NYC though. I skipped my more common art related fun to attend social/single type events in a couple of midtown locations & got info from a # of them. Only big personal change I would like is a GF/lover now. There are many lovely things out there, & NYC grrrls know how to dress…But I have long wondered if the environment breeds a higher level of pathology/issues, amongst all singles. It may not be knowable.

    So check out summerstage.org if you like music & other free culture.

  225. Jim Says:

    Warning, Warning Over Sharing alert! :) But I agree that women in NY dress well.

  226. Patrick Says:

    Mike, I hope when you do get a honey on the sofa it’s not for pyscho-analysis!

    WAR really is the Great Satan of baseball. Offense alone. Larkin oWAR 64.6, McGriff oWAR 51.4

    WHAT? This is the kind of bullshit that has set statistical knowledge and the HOF back to the Stone Age. McGriff has almost 1,000 more Total Bases or 3 entire seasons of MVP-type production.

    During their primes, Larkin missed 567 games and McGriff 124. That’s 443 games that McGriff laced em up and produced at a high level while Cincy actually had the actual REPLACEMENT PLAYER playing SS.

    The reason why McGriff has so much more run production than Larkin has nothing to do with team context and everything to do with McGriff’s 295 more HR’s.

    WAR is so busy trying to assign values to nuances that are nearly impossible to quantify, that it forgets how simple the game really is to analyze. Homerun very good. Everybody score.

    And this idea that there are plenty of guys who can hit while playing 1B is bullshit too, especially averaging 32 HR and 98 RBI for 15 consecutive years.

    So WAR has taught us that 2289 r/rbi is worth more than 2899, that 198 HR and 379 SB is worth more than 493 HR and 72 SB, even though Larkin made 50 more outs on the bases, and that an .815 OPS is worth more than a .886

    McGriff is one of the top 50 most productive hitters of all-time and oWAR has him down at 122, behind Sal Bando for christsake.

  227. Chuck Says:

    “To state an opinion without any evidence or argument wakes no sense.”

    Which is exactly the point..because you do it all the time.

    And it’s not “sense”, it’s “common” sense.

  228. Chuck Says:

    We debated last year about hitting and swing path..you disagreed..you said you were going to ask some “experts”, then came back after talking to Kerry and some of your library buddies and tried to tell me I was wrong.

    That is not evidence.

    You did not talk to the right people, (because you don’t know any) so even if you do consider what they told you to be evidence, it was incorrect because it was like asking a brain surgeon how to rebuild a transmission.

    You portray yourself as some health/nutrition expert and have chosen to get into it with me on several occasions, knowing full well I’m degreed in the field and have made my living at it for a brief period.

    You argued against McGwire taking steriods even though the “circumstantial” opinion was overwhelming, and instead of taking it as a lesson learned (and that we actually know more than you do), you continue to dismiss common opinion when discussing other obvious cases like Bagwell and Pudge Rodriguez.

    I personally think arguing is some genetic personality trait and you do it as easily as you breath, without actually realizing you’re doing it.

    I have no problem at all with any expression of opinion.

    I have a big problem with you being wrong and instead of admitting it going on some 15 comment tangent which at the end isn’t remotely related to the topic at hand.

    You make your living soliciting donations for charities or non-profits.

    That’s a polite way of saying your a salesman.

    I don’t care what you’re selling, just show me the Carfax.

  229. John Says:

    Patrick, position is included in oWAR.

    Because, see, there were always a handful of 1b’s with McGriff’s production while he played.

    There are only a handful of shortstops ever more productive than Larkin.

  230. Chuck Says:

    Doesn’t answer the question, John.

    “2) To state an opinion without any evidence or argument wakes no sense. Like your Dad saying “Because I said so”.

  231. John Says:

    I’ve given you plenty of evidence, Chuck. Not my fault if you ignore it.

    Patrick, would your hall of fame consist of anything besides 1B’s with a bunch of 100 RBI seasons?

  232. Chuck Says:

    oWAR’s not evidence.

  233. John Says:

    Look at any statistics you want; Larkin ends up top-10 among SS.

    McGriff? Not so much.

  234. Bob Says:

    1. Chris Getz is out for the season with a broken thumb.
    2. Brian Johnson, a Red Sox prospect got hit in the face by a lie drive yesterday. He suffererd multiple orbital bone fractures on the left side of his face, but did not get a concussion.

  235. Raul Says:

    Larkin was good. Sometimes great.

    Just wasn’t consistent and didn’t play enough for me.

  236. Chuck Says:

    There should be positional values, but not that much.

    Jeff Kent is not a HOFer, how many HR he hit is a small piece to the puzzle, not the foundation.

  237. Patrick Says:

    John, you’re saying that 15 years of 30/90/100 with a .900 OPS is common? It’s one of the top 20-15 year spans in history.

    What you and your WAR buddies are doing is treating baseball like it’s your neighborhood golf league. You’re giving out handicaps.


    Larkin isn’t a more productive hitter than McGriff. Simple as that. Oh, for a SS he is? The lineup doesn’t understand or care what position he plays.

    Your way of thinking should make ARod and Ripken better than Babe Ruth.

    The other thing about your way of thinking, namely that the 20th best SS is worth the same as the 20th best 1B is extremely flawed.

    First off, just because for 60 years, managers liked to put guys who can’t hit at SS shouldn’t inflate Larkin’s worth in today’s world.

    Second, a big, strong lefty HR hitter has 2 positions to choose from. 1b and OF. That’s it. It doesn’t diminish the fact if he’s the best hitter on the team year in and out.

    Third, a lot of times a team will protect their best hitter at 1B to help make sure he’s fit to do what matters most, hit.

    Fourth, it stands to reason that there are going to be more 1B-OF that have huge careers because that’s where half the righties and ALL of the lefties have to play.

    I suppose that McCovey and Stargell wouldn’t be stars today?

  238. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck, you are factually wrong about a bunch of things that you cannot contest. You just do not understand, in part because you do not pay careful attention. And as Raul said, never admit you are wrong let alone say oops, my bad.

    1) I never indicated I was a fundraiser, salesman, let alone solicited funds for non-profits or charities. What? I have done soical work, activism, sales & even some fundraising in the past. Since ‘09 I started & run an arts festival for my midtown ‘hood, & never even said I supported THAT with my fundraising. And there is a spin of magazine that is not yet sold anywhere.

    1 a) Being SO far off base with no cause to reach those conclusions should make you self conscious that “whoops, I may have screwed up many other things”. It is shown again & again, scientifically that folks tend to believe what they want, have prejudices, think emotionally, have confirmation biases…

    You are no exception.

    2) WHEN have I ever stated a premise without evidence? You cannot be taken seriously when you say this, ironically absent support, but also lambast me for long responses. IF I go on a tangent, it is after addressing all questions & concerns & giving my reasoning.

    3) Just copying what I say is not sensible. And you cannot call it “common” sense & that obviates the need for argument. Folks have different views of what is common sense, & MUCH of what passed for this has been established as dead wrong throughout human history.

    4) I spoke to my “library buddies”? Where did you get that from? Not that this would be wrong-the evidence would need to be examined. I described what I thought, posted VIDEOS that described & showed the swing path, & your intelligent, respectful, discerning response?


    I was open to a sensible argument, appropriately engaged, you were juvenile.

    5) Like you had no idea what I do, you have no idea if I know the “right people”, nor if I have access to/found the right evidence. Is a ball player in my gym in the minor leagues not “right”? Actually folks who practice may have contradictory opinions, the evidence must be considered, not merely the source.

    6) Again: I did not say I was an “expert” in the field of nutrition. But SOME of what you said contradicted what MOST experts believe. If you are gonna argue for losing 2% of your body weight a week as good, that it will not put you in starvation/slow metabolism mode & tend to slough off muscle, you had better bring an actual argument. You would not.

    7) I SAID I did not know if Big Mac used PEDs, & said there are some whop add his amount of muscle at his rate naturally, & I knew some. All of which was correct. That he happened to use drugs does not show I am wrong. Though I was not shocked he was using, & VOLUNTEERED he was when he would not testify before Congress.

    8) So you got a bunch of facts wrong. Let us see if you even say “oops, sorry” about what you were inarguably wrong about, & had no cause to believe, like what I do. That would establish respect & some level of credibility that you are…fair & rational.

    9) John answered about what oWAR meant/covered, disavowing Patrick of a wrong notion. That is substantive. And whether you believe in oWAR or not, it is evidence. Whether good or when is debatable.

    10) Patrick you have some interesting points that you can make a good case for, a couple of things you are mistaken about. I will address them when I can later!

  239. Chuck Says:

    So, would you say the last comment was a rebuttal?

  240. Patrick Says:

    “9) John answered about what oWAR meant/covered, disavowing Patrick of a wrong notion. That is substantive.”

    No, this is exactly how WAR is skewed times squared.

    First you get an arbitrary position discount as a 1B that turns 500 HR into 200 on the offensive side, then you get penalized on the back side in dWAR for the same reasons.

    Then, WAR ignores runs and rbi’s because it’s a team context stat.

    When WAR is done with a HR hitter, he looks like just another fat guy who clogged the bases.

    McGriff could hit 600 HR and not be as good as Larkin!

    I’m sorry, It’s not science, it’s bullshit.

    We used to think McCovey and Stargell were good players.

  241. Chuck Says:

    “Chuck, you are factually wrong about a bunch of things that you cannot contest.”

    Name one.

  242. Chuck Says:

    Just another day at Felber Central.

  243. John Says:

    @237, why do you think managers put “players who couldn’t hit” at SS?

    Do you think that, as some great matter of coincidence, every good player in baseball history has played 1b or corner outfield? Because position does matter. Positional scarcity matters.

    The average 1b played far closer to Crime Dog’s level of play than the average SS played to Larkin’s.

    That’s why Larkin is in, and Fred never will.

    It’s not like he was trash. He was an outstanding player. But as a 1b, you contribute much less on defense and, rightfully, more is expected of you on offense.

  244. Raul Says:

    I guess if Robin Yount remained a shortstop….nevermind. I can’t debate this shit anymore.

  245. Raul Says:

    A two HR game for Ichiro.
    Someone ate his Wheaties this morning.

  246. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck, you asked if my last post was a rebuttal, then to name anything I said you were factually incorrect about.

    In the paraphrased words of the peripatically (sic) present Hossrex:

    I…um, er; huh? Yowza—> you can’t be serious…urgle-gleep! Gaaaaah!

    Of course it was a rebuttal, & point by point. You rarely address many points when I make many, but even if you disagree, there can be no dispute that it was a rebuttal. It is silly to even ask that. Though you might actually be bold enough to address the clear arguments.

    What incontrovertible facts did I establish? It is SO easy to see Chuck, starting with the very 1st point about what you said I do, vs. what I do! That I ever contest points without offering an argument. That I ever sid I was an “expert” in nutrition.

    You can just go through the 10 points & see much more about what I say & what facts you clearly were incorrect about. How you could even come to the conclusion that I was a fundraiser for non-profits & such is beyond me. But it is unarguably wrong.

    As if I said that you were (currently or ever) a nurse because you clearly did something in the health field, or a celbrity assistance when you had done catering. Whaaaaa?

  247. Mike Felber Says:

    Patrick, I posted the new WAR formula here not long ago. DO no not believe they double counted defense before, & they do say that offense is the vast majority of value, all other things being equal. You should write them at highheatstats.com & get ANSWERS for your concerns: they are extremely detail oriented. Challenge them! But your notions about how much homers are worth vs. other components are a gross exaggeration.

    Guys like Pops & Killer are valued less than traditional guys do, but they still come out at least as borderline HOF guys, even if their ONLY tool is hitting for power. The exception is someone so deficient at all & never walking, like Kong.

    John beat me to the position scarcity argument. Your biggest error is to think that But to continue in that vain, managers have not just happened to put their weaker hitters in the middle infield. Those positions are more difficult, & few folks can play it at a decent MLB level. Thus this is valuable, why Jeter & his OPS + would not sniff the HOF with his glove as a corner outfielder or 1B guy, but clearly easily deserves it as a SS even with his always limited range.

    The handedness does not apply. If a Stretch or other slugger can play these positions, or the hot corner, well they can with either hand. Occasionally there is a guy who could be juist as good at a crucial position but does not get placed there. Possibly Jimmy FOxx with catcher, & IF he was put there, he would have been much more valuable.

    But usually they cannot do it. If you put them in that position, they would have a negative 20 WAR or greater over a long career. They would be a Sheffield like demerit at a position where it would hurt the team more than the corner OF or 1B.

    Now how exactly to weight these things is in question. Perhaps Crime dog deserves to be rated closer to or with Larkin, at least due to Games. If so, it may be because he would have had more to gain as a slugger than Larkin if he juiced. But as a rough measure, I would say that baseball is very competitive, & you are statistically likely to find that the stand outs at positions over a generation are the HOF names to consider.

    Of course you should not use context dependent stats to measure offensive prowess, virtually all agree, it is such a crude & inaccurate, unfair tool. But all that leads to runs scored is calculated.

    So go to that web site. make the above comparison & objections, & see if you can support your case when you get detailed & intelligent answers. Maybe some will say that Larkin & McGriff are at least closer than they are given credit for, or about equal!

  248. Patrick Says:

    “The handedness does not apply. If a Stretch or other slugger can play these positions, or the hot corner, well they can with either hand.”

    No Mike, they can’t. There are ZERO left handed fielding 2B, SS, 3B and catchers in the Major Leagues, at least during my lifetime.

    Jeter’s offensive stats put him in the Hall even if he were a DH. He has 1,000 more hits than Larkin already. There is no one with Jeter’s stats who isn’t in the Hall besides Rose.

    “But your notions about how much homers are worth vs. other components are a gross exaggeration.”

    No, it’s not even an exaggeration, much less a gross one. You want to trade 295 HR for 295 singles and 300 SB and call it even?

    As far as runs and rbi are concerned, did you ever notice how the well rounded power hitters have similar runs and rbi totals? 1500 runs and 1500 rbi is typical for the greats. It didn’t matter what their teammates were doing over the course of 20 years. Even over the course of one year, you’ll be hard pressed to find a .280+ hitter with 30 HR that wasn’t close to both 100 runs and a 100 rbi.

    You could put Larkin battin 4th on a great team for his entire career and he wouldn’t approach 1500 RBI.

    And defense does count twice because those numbers above are oWAR. They didn’t even have the dWAR counted yet! First McGriff gets about a 30% reduction for being a 1B and then he gets additional demerits for how few runs he saved as a 1B.

    WAR is truly bullshit and I’m having a hard time understanding how otherwise intelligent people can’t see it. It’s like religion. You can have an astropyhsisist go to church on Sunday and believe that woman was molded out of a man’s rib.

  249. Chuck Says:

    “The handedness does not apply. If a Stretch or other slugger can play these positions, or the hot corner, well they can with either hand.”


  250. Chuck Says:

    “Thus this is valuable, why Jeter & his OPS + would not sniff the HOF with his glove as a corner outfielder or 1B guy”


  251. Chuck Says:

    “why Jeter & his OPS + would not sniff the HOF with his glove as a corner outfielder or 1B guy, but clearly easily deserves it as a SS even with his always limited range.”

    Which defeats the purpose of positional value, because you’re still putting more emphasis on offense, and if that’s the case, then Patrick’s argument is rock solid.

  252. Patrick Says:

    Out of curiosity, I just added up the runs and rbi of the top 20 HR hitters of all-time. 521 or more HR.

    33,727 runs and 35,864 rbi.

    an average of 1,686 runs and 1792 rbi per career

    3 slow guys, Killebrew, McGwire and McCovey, account for half of the 2,137 rbi lead.

    So basically, 500 HR = 1,500+ runs and 1,500+ rbi, regardless of era and team. Runs and rbi are not team context, they’re player context.

  253. Chuck Says:

    “So go to that web site. make the above comparison & objections, & see if you can support your case when you get detailed & intelligent answers.”

    Why would anyone use WAR if they were looking for detailed and intelligent answers?

  254. Raul Says:

    In his last 62 games, Pedro Alvarez is batting .265/.352/.516 with 15 homers and 38 RBI.
    I suppose that is progress.

  255. Chuck Says:

    Still not hitting his weight…:)

  256. Raul Says:

    Hahaha. Not on the season. I think he’s around a .235 average

  257. Bob Says:

    Augusta National added two women to its membership. One of whom is Condoleezza Rice.

  258. Chuck Says:


  259. Raul Says:

    Apparently Roger Clemens still wants to pitch.

  260. John Says:

    “Runs and rbi are not team context, they’re player context.”

    About half and half, unlike WAR, which is about 98% player context.

    You realize that if you put those guys on the Mariners, they would average about 75 RBI’s a year, right?

  261. Len Says:


    There are six players who hit over 500 and didn’t reach the 1500 run & 1500 rbi plateau:


    Sosa hit over 600 and didn’t make the 1500 & 1500 club

    Also, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Willie Stargell, Canseco, Vlad Guerrero, Juan Gonzalez, Dave Kingman, Andre Dawson, Andrew Jones, Jason Giambi, Mike Piazza, and Billy Williams hit over 425 home runs and didn’t do it either.

    Meanwhile, Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker hit 117 home runs and did it, Hornsby hit 301 home runs and did it, Al Simmons hit 307 and did it, George Brett hit 317 home runs and did it, Al Kaline hit 399 home runs and did it, Cal Ripken hit 421 and did it.

    I also found 137 instances of player hitting 30 home runs and batting at least .280 yet didn’t reach 100 rbis, 177 instances of 29 hr+.280, 225 instances of 28 hr+.280.

    Here’s a few:

    Mickey Mantle hit 31hr, .285 with 75 rbi in 1959
    T. Williams hit 29hr, .345 with 89 rib in 1954
    Felix Mantilla hit 30 hr, .289 and had 64 RBi in 1964
    Felipe Alou hit 31 hr, .327 and had 74 rbi in 1966
    D. Allen hit 32 hr, .301 and had 85 rbi in 1974
    L. Parish hit 30hr, .307 and had 82 rbi in 1979
    B. Jacoby hit 31hr, .285 and had 75 rbi in 1987
    P. Guerrero hit 33hr, .320 and had 87 rbi in 1985
    R. Sandberg hit 32hr, .300 and had 69 rbi in 1987
    R. Henderson hit28 hr, .325 and had 61 rbi in 1990
    R. Wilkins hit 30hr, .303 and had 73 rbi in 1993
    H. Ramirez hit 33hr, .301 and had 67 rbi in 2008
    R. Soriano hit 33hr, .303 and had 70 rbi in 2007

  262. John Says:

    “Mickey Mantle hit 31hr, .285 with 75 rbi in 1959
    T. Williams hit 29hr, .345 with 89 rib in 1954″

    What assholes. Don’t they know the point of the game is to drive in runs, and not pad their selfish, me-first WAR’s?

  263. John Says:

    “You could put Larkin battin 4th on a great team for his entire career and he wouldn’t approach 1500 RBI.”

    Yes, he would.

    You’re just making shit up at this point.

  264. John Says:

    “Jeff Kent is not a HOFer, how many HR he hit is a small piece to the puzzle, not the foundation”

    I agree. Much like Posada, Kent was solid enough with the bat to sneak into the top-10 or so offensively at his position, but he gave it away in the field.

  265. Mike Felber Says:

    I was wrong about a couple of things Patrick. Let me model responsibility be delineating exactly where & how.

    1) Using stretch as an example. I was thinking right handers, I spaced & used a lefty. Of course they cannot play those positions so easily, will not be placed there. They could play CF, but the other more high value positions are closed to them. So for a GOOD fielding southpaw, that begs the question of fairness. Though I can anticipate that a) it is a natural advantage that some would say you should not compensate for, & b) if you do-which you can make a good case for-it at least evens out, ’cause hitting is easily the most important component of a position player’s game given proportionate talents at offense & defense(possible exception of an excellent catcher)…

    And Lefty’s have an advantage given the handedness of most pitchers. And a tiny one at running to 1st.

    2) ALSO Jeter was a poor example he would likely make the HOF, though many, esp, SM folks would complain because of his 117 (thus far) lifetime OPS + & a poor fielder at a less crucial position. And his highest OPS + by far being a 153.
    He would definitely make it though due to the raw stats, largely total hits, & also post season play: which he should definitely get credit for, esp. due to how much he played then, though it would be, as per usual, at least a bit overvalued.

    It poses an interesting question though. WITH the what you call overvaluing of positions Jeter makes it by WAR, without a problem. My rough estimation is he would not, but be maybe borderline at best if you value longevity more, as, say, a LF or 1B man.

  266. John Says:


    Larkin isn’t a more productive hitter than McGriff. Simple as that. Oh, for a SS he is? The lineup doesn’t understand or care what position he plays.”

    Big picture, Patrick.

    Larkin producing those numbers as a SS also means that he’s not occupying a position where there’s a bunch of terrific hitters…and thus, his team can choose from one of many 1B’s who can put up solid offense.

    Can McGriff say that? No. McGriff is already occupying 1B.

    Take two teams…identical in every way, except the first one has McGriff and an average SS, and the second has Larkin, and an average 1B.

    An average 1B during their careers was still hitting about .280/.360/.490 or so, with close to 25 HR’s and 90 or so RBI’s (based on league splits from a couple years).

    An average SS, on the other hand, was hitting more like .260/.320/.380.

    The team with Larkin would beat the team with McGriff most of the time. McGriff would outperform the other team’s 1B, sure, but Larkin would SPANK the other team’s SS by a lot more.

  267. Mike Felber Says:

    Dang Len & John beat me to the next case! Len, how did you do that search?

    It does show the dramatic difference of 1 HR at a certain “tipping point” to getting raw Stats What you are missing Patrick is that of course there is a big correlation between them & how good you are. They are also often inexact-poor measures of overall production. Not only undervaluing walks severely-dinging greats like Mantle, Rught, & Williams largely because they could not hit when pitchers were too careful to give them good pitches, & then they get no credit for their very valuable OBP.

    Also era, & often parks, can make a BIG difference. Any system that uses raw #s of team dependent stats to assess overall offensive value is fairly retarded.

    Chuck, these systems still count offense as more important, but find positional scarcity & value important. Jim Rice is rightly derided as a good HOF case, becxause his adjusted for era & park bat-largely how he rarely walked-make him good, not great, not near what his raw #s suggest.

    Though if he was a good fielding SS instead of onlyu good at hitting, he would very easily qualify! Even without the longevity of Jeter.

  268. John Says:

    Carlos Delgado had 3 more RBI in about 1200 fewer PA’s than Mickey Mantle.

    Sounds like a fucking outstanding statistic to me.

  269. Mike Felber Says:

    I think this statement is wrong Patrick, but I cannot answer exactly why. I again suggest you CHALLENGE folks at highheatstats.com with this question, & use the Larkin/McGriff example. If you will not I will, but you can best represent your own case, right?

    “And defense does count twice because those numbers above are oWAR. They didn’t even have the dWAR counted yet! First McGriff gets about a 30% reduction for being a 1B and then he gets additional demerits for how few runs he saved as a 1B”.

  270. John Says:

    “And defense does count twice because those numbers above are oWAR. They didn’t even have the dWAR counted yet! First McGriff gets about a 30% reduction for being a 1B and then he gets additional demerits for how few runs he saved as a 1B”

    I can see why you might think that, but actually, it only counts it once when tabulating total WAR.

    With Fred McGriff:

    Career oWAR: 51.4
    Career dWAR: -18.1
    Career WAR: 48.2

    The reason that the two components add up to 48.2 instead of 33.3 is that most of that negative dWAR comes just from playing 1B. Since the oWAR was also based on just playing 1B, that part of dWAR gets lopped off. For his entire career, McGriff was worth about -3.2 WAR with the glove. The rest signifies that he played an easier position…but only gets counted once.

  271. Chuck Says:

    #266..OK, that’s just not true, now you’re just making shit up.

  272. Mike Felber Says:

    Ahhh, thank you John! That is why & how simple arithmetic between the game’s components often do not add up for WAR.

    oWAR & real value correlates with the best & most simple calculations of value much better than raw stats. Delgado & Mantle played in such different contexts that they are not remotely in the same proverbial ball park in how many raw #s they could put up. Mantle was better at every aspect of the game, peak & career, but just a glance at their OPS + (over more PA) shows the massive difference in how well they hit.

    Mantle, 172. Delgado, 138.

  273. Mike Felber Says:

    My post #s do not track with other’s Chuck, so I calculate that you were referring to me. If so, you should know I am painstakingly honest. But if you think something is awry/wrong, say exactly what & why. There are a few things mentioned.

  274. Chuck Says:

    “oWAR is offensive WAR, everything but Fielding”.

    “The same stat as WAR for Position Players but with Fielding Value excluded. Contains formulas for batting, baserunning(?) and positional adjustments.”

    Per BR glossary.

  275. Chuck Says:

    Not you Mike.

  276. Raul Says:

    This “debate” is making this website suck.

    You should all know that. And you should be ashamed of yourselves.

  277. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, sorry Chuck, then I will let John filed that.

    Raul: you are like the cliched grumpy old man/you kids get off my lawn.

    Ashamed? Whaaaa? Are folks being mean, drinking each other’s milkshake There Will Be Blood style, arguing for child slavery?

    People are rationally sharing opinions while being decent. Should folks
    return to flaming?

  278. Chuck Says:
  279. Chuck Says:

    **hangs head in shame**

  280. Len Says:


    I just put the numbers and the parameters into the play index at baseball reference. It’t pretty easy.

    To be fair to Patrick, I think his original post way back and main point was that WAR short-changed McGriff somewhat because he was playing in a league full of steroid players. Assuming Mcgriff didn’t do steroids then in a way WAR probably isn’t fair to McGriff because the replacement level is partial based on steroid players. I know he does better in Bill James win share system because it starts at zero rather than uses a replacement level.

    As far as Larkin and Mcgriff go, Mcgriff was a better offensive player than Larkin but Larkin is the much more valuable player because he could put up his numbers while playing short stop.

    If we look at last year, Alexie Ramirez was the median SS in terms of ops with a .727. Casey Kotchman was the median 1b in terms of ops with a .800. If Casey Kotchman could play ss and have a .800 ops, he’d be the fourth highest in the majors in terms of ops for a SS and probably be an all star.

  281. Raul Says:

    I’m not a grumpy anything. You assholes keep talking about WAR and ratings about players that nobody gives a fuck about.

    Andrew McCutchen.
    Buster Posey.
    The Red Sox implosion.
    The Yankees in 1st place with Arod, Sabathia, Pettitte and Pineda on the DL.
    The Pirates and Orioles potentially making the playoffs.
    The AL Cy Young race.
    Hanley Ramirez’s resurgence in LA.

    Tons of stories to discuss on this season, and you fuckfaces keep talking about WAR and Barry Larkin.

    Yes, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

  282. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes, on all that, thanks Len.

    Except that the main point Patrick made remained the actual offensive value & believing that defense/positional value was double counted. The part about how crime dog suffered more due to being compared to ‘roid useds I described above & seems legitimate.

    It MIGHT be that they are about equal in value if both never used-seems likely-& nobody else ever used!

  283. Mike Felber Says:

    Nah, you are right, you are not grumpy. With all those curses & F bombs you are beyond that, meaning an anger management case. I was being kind.

    By definition if folks are talking about it, & responding to each other, they are interested. No need to be a heavy trying to polic other’s free discourse.

    Those other good points & topical matters-nobody is stopping you from bringing any & all of them up. There are plenty of topical issues discussed just in this tread! God forbid we take a tangent you do not approve of, sorry Sir.

  284. John Says:

    @274, correct. “Positional” is different than “Fielding” in that positional is what position you play, and fielding is how well you play it.

  285. Raul Says:

    Maybe you’d speak about the current season if you actually watched baseball, Mike.

    It’s clear you don’t. And it becomes clearer every day that you don’t know anything about this game that isn’t posted on a sabr website.

  286. Chuck Says:

    Melky Cabrera could still win the batting title.

    If you add whatever PA’s he’s missing to his total, and he still has the lead, he wins.

    McCutchen still has him by a half dozen or so now, I think, but that would royally suck if it came to that.

  287. Chuck Says:

    “You assholes keep talking about WAR and ratings about players that nobody gives a fuck about.”


  288. Chuck Says:

    And when I get home, I’m going to stand in the corner for an hour.

  289. Raul Says:

    One more reason to root for McCutchen.

  290. John Says:

    @286, he’s only missing 1. So basically, McCutchen has to finish at .345 or better.

    The thing with the fake website is hysterical.

    Raul, I’ll write about something shortly, maybe tonight. I just got settled in; been on the move for most of the last couple weeks.

  291. Raul Says:

    Lost in all this crap about Melky are two things

    1) that there are dumb asses who think this is an argument that testing works.

    2) lots more players are still taking PEDs.

    Victor Conte’s recent comments were right. The only people who get caught are the idiots.
    And I think Kirk Gibson said that clearly 50 games isnt enough of a deterrent. He’s right also.

  292. Raul Says:

    Much as you travel…they hit you with any paternity suits yet, John?

  293. Len Says:

    Yeah Melky only need one plate appearance to qualify so they’ll give him a 0-1.

    Another friggin black eye for baseball if that happens.

  294. Chuck Says:

    Here’s my beef about the testing.

    Last year, MLB tested 36 players.

    Per the CBA, they can test up to 33% of all players on 25 man rosters at any time.

    That’s a minimum of 247 players per year.

    Steriods/PED’s lead to offense, which leads to ticket sales.

    Try and convince me baseball doesn’t want PED’s still in the game.

  295. Chuck Says:

    “Much as you travel…they hit you with any paternity suits yet, John?”

    He’s in the Navy, Raul..he walks into a bar wearing pajamas and with an ashtray on his head.

    Just how much pussy you think he gets?

    More than Felber I’m sure, but so does Pee Wee Herman.

  296. Chuck Says:

    Roger Clemens signed with an independent league team, the Sugar Land Skeeters.

    He will start Saturday.

  297. Raul Says:

    They said Clemens hit 87 on the gun.

    He could pitch for the Astros by Labor Day. Hahaha.

  298. Chuck Says:

    He did a pitching clinic at the Under Armour game in Chicago last week..Billy Ripken was one of the team managers and said Roger threw harder than most of the kids there.

  299. John Says:

    “He’s in the Navy, Raul..he walks into a bar wearing pajamas and with an ashtray on his head.”

    You’ve…never actually seen an officer’s uniform, have you?

  300. Bob Says:

    Speaking of Pineda, he got arrested for a DUI.

    John, are you living in Fairfield County?

  301. Bob Says:

    And Carl Crawford will have TJ Surgery on Thursday. Have a good night.

  302. Raul Says:

    Smart one, that Pineda kid.

    Shoulder surgery. And drives drunk…potentially killing himself, someone else, or getting into an accident where he could further damage his shoulder.

  303. Raul Says:

    That Crawford contract is on its way to being the worst deal ever.

    Even Barry Zito is at least able to go out there and pitch.

  304. Raul Says:

    Btw, didn’t mean to imply velocity is everything

    But a 50 year old throwing 87 is impressive. Maybe Clemens is back on the juice.

  305. Chuck Says:


    Yes, John, just taking the freebie to bust you.

    Tough to have a sense of humor in the Navy.

    See how easy that is?

  306. Chuck Says:

    “You’ve…never actually seen an officer’s uniform, have you?”


    Shit..too easy.

  307. Chuck Says:

    I don’t think juice has anything to do with velocity for a pitcher..at least not significantly.

    Look at guys like Fergie Jenkins..how many starts/innings/complete games they had.

    Maybe it helps recover from TJ/rotator/dead arm issues, maybe it helps you snap off a hammer in the sixth you otherwise wouldn’t have because you’re gassed, but throwing 95 is a gift from God.

    No amount of drugs is going to turn Jamie Moyer into Randy Johnson.

  308. Patrick Says:

    Dan Naulty said steroids gave him 60 lbs of muscle and 10 mph on his fastball. Granted, he was a 6-7, 180 lb string bean, and 240+ a couple of years later.

  309. Raul Says:

    Even at 180 pounds…at 6′7 Naulty should have been in the low 90s without breaking a sweat.

    I doubt steroids added ten mph. More than likely it gave him confidence. That, along with improved technique/mechanics is what added the velocity.

  310. Lefty33 Says:

    @291 – What Gibson, and to a lesser degree Conte, said is 100% true.

    The testing policy, while nice, is a joke in that the penalities are puny especially when guys are potentially playing for nine figure contracts.

    Don’t get caught and sign an irrevocable huge contract or get caught and simply come back and play again next year anyway.

    A nice Olympic style ban of two years on the first offense along with being unpaid during that time would quash everything but the MLBPA will never go along with that.

  311. Lefty33 Says:

    I also like that on the Skeeters roster with Clemens is Scott Kazmir, Tim Redding, and Jason Lane.

  312. Chuck Says:

    Manager is Gary Gaetti.

  313. Raul Says:

    Two years seems like a reasonable deterrent for a 1st offense. I mean you could appeal of there was a mistake, but of you’re guilty…serve two years suspension and somehow get caught AGAIN?? You deserve to be banned.

  314. Raul Says:

    Yankees trivia question:

    Five pitchers who played for the Yankees in the 90s won Cy Young awards with other teams. Name them.

    I think, Roger Clemens, Doug Drabek, Doc Gooden…did Roger McDowell win a Cy Young??
    I don’t think Cone or Jimmy Key won the Cy.

  315. Raul Says:

    I take Drabek back. He never pitched with NY in the 90s. Not sure what I was thinking

  316. JohnBowen Says:

    Cone won the 1994 Cy Young award with the Royals.

  317. Raul Says:

    Have to say, Jeremy Hellickson might already be a top 5-6 pitcher in the AL.

  318. Raul Says:

    I wasn’t sure about Cone. Ok so I think that’s three guys.

    Clemens, Cone and Gooden

  319. JohnBowen Says:

    Did you mean Jack McDowell by chance? Cuz he won in 1993, and I wanna say he was a Yankee at some point.

    I’m not coming up with #5 though…I’ll probably be kicking myself…

  320. Chuck Says:

    Junkball Joe Saunders is pitching for the Dbacks tonite against the Marlins.

    We may see Giancarlo Stanton hit the first ball ever through the roof.

  321. Raul Says:

    Roger McDowell pitched for NY. I remember him giving the fans the finger once.

    Don’t think Jack pitched here.

  322. Raul Says:

    Lol @Junkball

    Great nickname

  323. Chuck Says:

    Clemens…Gooden..Cone..Randy Johnson, McDowell.

  324. Chuck Says:

    Shit..Johnson’s wrong.

    I’ll take 4 of 5 without looking.

  325. Raul Says:

    Oh wait. You’re right. I confused the mcdowells

  326. Chuck Says:

    Jack McDowell was a Yankee..he was the losing pitcher in Game Five of the 1995 Division Series against Seattle.

    Why in God’s name would you throw Edgar Martinez a 2-2 slider?

    I mean, Jesus Christ..throw him a change-up away..knock him down with a fastball, but a sidearming slider to a breaking ball hitter..might as well walk up to home plate and put the fucking ball on a tee.

    Oh, wait, Joe Girardi was the catcher.

    I love when I answer my own questions.

  327. Raul Says:

    Maybe it was four guys and I didn’t hear correctly. Waiting for the answer on tv.

  328. JohnBowen Says:

    Hmm…I’m not seeing it.

  329. Raul Says:

    Me neither. I just wen to the store and thought I missed it.

    Anyway, it was a decent question.

  330. Mike Felber Says:

    Not very creative Chuck, pretty standard issue make your interlocutor a hapless nerd, but a passable snap I guess. I have not had any trim recently. As a buddy I squat w/on Mondays says, could if had no preference for age, size, etc…A recent date from nerve.com just did not look good enough in person, & I have certainly heard I am not attracted…You know, all those grrrls who told you the same & you said must be lesbians.

    You are right I do not watch (hardly) games Raul. Canceled TV years ago, spend enough time on Internet. A Classic-you provide no evidence that “I know nothing about baseball”. I guess that is true even when I agree with you, hmmm?

    Also irrational ’cause tons of folks who watch games have differencing opinions.

    Testing policies ARE too lenient. Two years for a 1st time violation? Maybe, at least one, then 2nd penalty can be 5 years. WIth a good & quick appeal. And make sure that folks do not get banned for the occasional spiked legitimate supplement.

    Sure cheating is still there, though less common. Guys do not take things as much to maximize bulk. But it does help velocity, beyond picthing mechanics, for most. So it can make someone who throws aan average MLB fastball hit 95 consistently.

    Though if Clemens could reach that easily when younger & clean, when approaching 50 I could sure see him hitting 87 clean. Ryan threw faster when older. And more endurance during a game & during a grueling season? Yup, PEDs can do that too.

    But if they can help you swing sooner/faster & have more muscle, it stands to reason that they TEND to help you throw harder. Even near 5 MPH is a lot when things are so competitive.

    One thing I do NOT know: does a 6′7″ guy throw harder on average compared to a 6′2″ man? Harder to cordinate, & some do use the length/leverage to their advantage, but that is near the average NBA height, they are highly athletic, & I bet the average there is not near low 90’s.

    Seems like it is a balance of length helping, but can you accelerate your body fast enough when so long? Like HR hitters, the best raw talents for power & speed need to be at least near 5′11″, but that can be enough to be amongst the top or top speed & power guys.

    Mantle almost 5′ 11″, around that height Dalkowski, Pedro, Allen, Killer, Wagner (Billy & Honus, who had a distance throwing record)…all likely clean & clearly under 6′.

  331. Raul Says:

    Jesus fucking christ

  332. Raul Says:

    Freddy Garcia, Clay Rapada, Cody Eppley.

    This fifth inning just turned into the Bad News Bears.

    White Sox erase a 3-0 lead.

  333. Raul Says:

    Jeter homers.

    Impressive considering Jeter rarely pulls the ball.

    Sox lead 5-4

  334. Chuck Says:

    OK, so making sure I have the question correct..

    Name the five pitchers who played for the Yankees during the 1990’s who won a Cy Young Award while pitching for another team?

    We have Jack McDowell..Roger Clemens..Dwight Gooden..David Cone.

    I went through every roster and don’t see five.

  335. Raul Says:

    So Michael Kay mentions how far Jeter is from Rose’s all time hit record.

    My question is, would the record do anything for Jeter? I suppose MLB wants someone to pass Rose. It kinda takes some of the stink off not having the all time leader in the HOF. But I don’t think it elevates Jeter in any way to go after it.

  336. Raul Says:

    It may have been 4, Chuck.

    Maybe I didn’t hear the question correctly.

  337. Chuck Says:

    Mike could walk into a women’s penitentiary with a handful of pardons and couldn’t get laid.

  338. Chuck Says:

    “Freddy Garcia, Clay Rapada, Cody Eppley.”

    Jeopardy answer.

    “Three reasons why the Yankees won’t get past the Division Series.”

  339. Chuck Says:


    Jesus fucking Christ.

    Oh, wait, that answer was already taken.

    In honor of Cameron.

    Fuck the heck.

  340. Raul Says:

    You start throwing out words like interlocutor to a woman and she’ll think you’re talking about the flux capacitor from Back To The Future.

    She’ll also walk to the other end of the bar.

  341. John Says:

    I give Jeter plenty of shit, but there’s no questioning his body of work at the plate. He was supposed to be slipping and has just been on a tear since getting 3000.

    Still, that’s 1000 hits. 200 a year until he’s 43? Or 170 until he’s 45?

    He will likely be over 200 this year, but these abilities tend to take a nose dive at his age.

    Not to mention the fact that it’s going to get harder and harder to justify him getting 700 PA’s a year as his already bad defensive skill’s tend to erode.

    Not saying it’s impossible, but I’d bet on about 3600.

  342. Raul Says:

    Donnie Veal comes in with men on 1st and 2nd, one out…and throws two straight curveballs to get ahead of Granderson.
    the balls on the young kid to come in with that pitch selection.

    He struck Granderson out.

  343. Raul Says:

    My bad. I guess Veal threw sliders. But they were 75 mph. I thought that was a bit slow for a slider.

    Anyway, Yankees take a 6-5 lead.

  344. Raul Says:

    I agree on Jeter, John.

    Hard to justify the defense long term.

  345. Raul Says:


    Yankees take a 6-5 lead. Joba gives up an opposite field homer to Gordon Beckham.

  346. Raul Says:

    And Joba hits Youkilis.
    Aimed for his back. Youkilis took it off the elbow.

  347. Raul Says:

    6th inning and I think Boone Logan is the 5th pitcher of the game for the Yankees.

  348. Mike Felber Says:

    Good rebuttal Raul. Substantive, deals with issues, kind, tolerant, mature-not.

    But of course you are correct about Jeter. Seems he would need 160 hits for the next 6 years, & he would be 44 then if he could manage that. He would need to play an easy position or DH. Already the last 3 years he is rated in overall contribution as below an average starter. WAR is right there. He would inevitably decline. It would be like Rose’s last 6 years, a net demerit for his team…

    But more so with the Yankees, because he would be taking a roster spot that a highly paid slugger could produce so much more in. It would be exponentially worse than not moving over for A-Rod. I do not think he would even try, it would tarnish his team player image & create tensions as he got closer while clearly hurting the team.

  349. Raul Says:

    4 hits for Jeter tonight.
    Nice job.

  350. Raul Says:

    Boone Logan gives up a 2-run shot to Alexei Ramirez.
    Sox lead 8-6.

    A home run to a guy whose strike zone starts when he gets out of bed in the morning.

  351. Chuck Says:

    Anything below 83 is a curveball.

  352. Chuck Says:

    Pete Rose broke the hit record for one reason only.

    For the last five years of his career, he wrote the lineup card.

    Anyone else is the Reds’ manager, he’s getting 200 PA’s a year and spending most of his time in the clubhouse on the phone with his bookie.

  353. Raul Says:

    Anything below 83 is a curveball means Cameron only throws curveballs. Hahaha.

  354. Chuck Says:

    Stanton hit a bomb off Saunders into the second deck in left, into the service area of TGI Friday’s.

    His second homer went almost as far.

  355. Lefty33 Says:

    @340 – LOL! Nice Back To The Future reference.

    @341 – Not to mention if the Yankees really start carving payroll beginning in the ‘14 season what kind of roster will they have and will he want to stick around and play with what would have to be a lot of much younger guys and guys with less name value (aka AAAA caliber players)?

    It’s all fun and games when you’re winning and playing on stacked rosters.

    It starts to suck if Hank and Hal begin to put profits way ahead of winning.

  356. Chuck Says:

    Stanton #1

  357. Chuck Says:

    Idiot..post the link.


  358. Chuck Says:

    Stanton #2


  359. Chuck Says:

    Justin Ruggiano’s was no cheapie either.


  360. Chuck Says:

    On Stanton’s first..check out the look on Kirk Gibson’s face.

  361. Lefty33 Says:

    Thanks for the links Chuck.

    Kirk’s face was priceless.

  362. Chuck Says:

    A question for our resident official Dugout Central hitting instructor, Mr. Felber..

    nice short swing Stanton has, huh?

    I thought longer swings generate more bat speed..

  363. Chuck Says:

    You know, I wonder what the bat feels like in Stanton’s hands..Lefty can probably speak to this because he’s a pro, (although as a pitcher couldn’t hit the ground if he fainted..lol).

    He’s 6′5″, 240..is it possible to trust your hands that much you wait so long by the time you swing you’re actually late?

    I mean, as big and strong as he is, a 33 ouncer must fell like he’s swinging a popsicle stick.

  364. Len Says:

    Rose only played for little over two seasons while managing. The real culprit were the Phillies who gave a 39-42 year first basemen 2500 plate appearances while he hit .279 with 4 home runs!

  365. Raul Says:

    Ruth swung…what? A 42 ounce?

    I don’t care if they threw 60 mph in those days. That shit is impressive.
    Most people today couldn’t swing a 42…44 ounce bat in softball, much less baseball.

  366. Chuck Says:

    Dbacks trade Stephen Drew to the A’s.

  367. Chuck Says:

    HAHAHAHA…Red Sox fire pitching coach Bob McClure.

    HAHAHAHAHA..The FBI is considering an investigation into Melky Cabrera’s fake website as internet fraud.

    I can’t make this shit up.

    I suppose if I had Bill James’ imagination I could make up a whole bunch of weird shit, but that ship’s sailed.

  368. Chuck Says:

    So, who’s the Red Sox manager next year?

    If they get rid of the fat cats..Ortiz..Beckett..my money’s on Jason Varitek.

  369. Lefty33 Says:

    @363 – I used to use a 36 ounce bat (maybe that explains things) and I can remember goofing around with a 38 in my Legion Ball days. The difference between swinging a 36-38 and a 32 ounce bat is unreal.

    To a guy like Stanton, it would make Chapman’s heat seem like a knuckleball.

    As an FYI:

    Ruth used a 36/42
    Gehrig used a 34/39
    Mantle used a 35/32
    Gywnn used a 33/30.5
    McGwire used a 34.5/33

  370. Chuck Says:

    I’ll never forget the only time I met Pete Rose.

    I wish I could, but my insurance stopped making my therapy payments.

  371. Raul Says:

    I swung a 34 ounce in HS.

    A 32 or 30 ounce bat would feel like I was in little league.

  372. Chuck Says:

    I read somewhere the juiced up Bonds used a 32/30.

    I used that when I was a 5′2″, 120 pound 12 year old.

  373. Chuck Says:

    The 12 pitchers Bryce Harper has homered off of…

    Tommy Hanson
    Felix Dubront
    Tim Stauffer
    Rafael Betancourt
    Mike Dunn
    Chris Young
    Anthony Bass
    Henderson Alvarez
    Jonny Venters
    Johan Santana
    Jeremy Hefner
    Livan Hernandez

    Where’s Ashton Kutcher..I’m being punk’d..I thought Harper was in the major leagues?

    What a sorry ass group.

  374. Lefty33 Says:

    “So, who’s the Red Sox manager next year?”

    My money’s on Valentine sticking it out.

    Peter Abraham of The Boston Globe wrote a story a few hours ago in which he said that McClure’s firing is actually a sign of support for Valentine in that McClure and Bobby did not get along and Bobby had been wanting him fired for the better part of the whole season.

    Supposedly the two had no relationship and would go for long stretches without speaking.

    Ben Cherington is also quoted as saying that no other changes would be coming to the coaching staff although the writing is on the wall that if Bobby V could get McClure fired and his guy installed as pitching coach, Randy Niemann, then Gary Tuck and Tim Bogar had better watch their backs since they have also been critical of Valentine this year as well.

    This now makes four pitching coaches in four years for Boston and clearly putting Niemann in the job is a sign from Cherington that Bobby’s not going anywhere.

  375. Raul Says:

    I had reservations about the Boston job not being right for Valentine from the day he signed. But I don’t think he’s the problem up there.

  376. Chuck Says:

    I somewhat agree..the fact the Sox shipped out Youkilis is a support for Valentine.

    As much of a dick he is, I don’t think he got a fair shake from Valentine..Pedroia threw him under the bus big time and he sat there and did nothing.

    And the back-stabbing shit stirrer in the clubhouse is, and always has been, Ortiz.

    He must have pictures of Theo in the back seat with Ellsbury for him to get away with half the shit he says.

  377. Len Says:


    What happened when you met Pete Rose?

  378. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 375 – The problem in Boston revolves around Henry, Werner, and Lucchino all being too full of themselves. They’ve taken the worst pages out the King George playbook and what they have now is the end result of that.

    Cherington wanted to hire Dale Sveum as the manger but Lucchino publicly poo-pooed that idea and the three headed ownership beast shoved Bobby V down Cherington’s throat.

    Bobby V’s coaching staff was madeup this year of Francona holdovers or guys that Henry, Werner, and Lucchino picked for him without his input.

    When the business guys start making baseball decisions usually bad shit happens and that’s what’s going on in Boston.

  379. Bob Says:

    The A’s acquired Stephen Drew.

  380. Raul Says:

    Seems like the Athletics haven’t ever had a SS of note. A juiced up Tejada aside, who has played SS for them and done a great job?

    Please don’t say Mike Gallego.

  381. Bob Says:

    How far back can we go? Campy was decent.

  382. Raul Says:

    You can go back to the Philadelphia A’s, I guess

  383. Bob Says:

    Walt Weiss also was a “SS of note.”

  384. Lefty33 Says:

    Seeing as Gallego played more 2B than SS I wouldn’t say him either.

    Walt Weiss at least won the ROY as an Oakland SS in ‘88.

    Although it should be noted that his competition for that ROY was comical.

    Bryan Harvey, Jody Reed, Don August, Melido Perez, and Mike Schooler rounded out the “competition”.

  385. Len Says:

    Bert Campaneris, he’s one of the top 25 SS of all time.

    Eddie Joost played spent most of his career for the A’s in the late 40’s early 50’s.

    Jack Barry was part of the famed $100.000 A’s infield of the early teens.

  386. Chuck Says:


    The Rose encounter was in Reading while he was playing with the Phillies, they used to play an annual in-season exhibition game there.

    It was raining and as the players came in (most drove their own cars), we’d go over with an umbrella and walk them through the staff entrance.

    For the most part, we didn’t know who was who until we got to the car, so when Rose pulled in with his cherry (Phillie) red Porsche, it wasn’t until I opened the drivers side door I didn’t know it was him til then. (My buddy opened the passenger door and found Larry Bowa).

    Rose got out, looked at my name on my jacket, and said, “What the fuck, Chuck, are we going to play tonite”, and we walked inside.

    I remember Rose asking everyone to leave the office area because he “had to make a call”, and when Joe Buzas (owner) found his door closed and went in, they kind of went at it, Buzas’ desk was covered with a racing form..Rose was on the phone placing bets.

    We were told unequivocally we could not get autographs, that we were employees on the clock and if we liked our job to keep our mouths shut and do it.

    There was this tarped off area between the clubhouses that exited the park to the loading dock area, caterers had set up some food tables where the guys could hand around and eat after the game. The game was rained out, so most of them had a plate of food then we walked them back out to their cars and they left.

    Look at the Phillies’ roster that year…I almost wish I had the balls to sneak around with a ball and pen.

    A couple of things I remember..

    The team bus pulled in and the driver gets out and starts unloading the equipment. He’s there maybe ten minutes and then Bake McBride gets off the bus..he was the only player to ride up and had fallen asleep.

    Jim Kaat, Steve Carlton and Bob Boone arrived together, they were so big the three of them barely fit in the small hallway that led to the concourse, on the way Boone stuck his head in Buzas’ office and asked where the clubhouse was.

    Buzas was a gruff old guy (and, as I found out later, a former Yankees player), he looked at Boone and said something like, “You played here two and a half years and don’t know where the clubhouse is, you dumb fuck…….”

    Kaat was on the floor laughing.

    I remember being shocked at how short Greg Luzinski was..you see him on TV and how wide he was, like a linebacker, you just assume he’d be tall like McGwire..nope…5′11″..maybe six foot.

    I remember walking out with Tug McGraw and his “wife”. My roomie was in front of him cutting through the crowd, she was in front of me and my hand was on her shoulder, kind of shielding. As we got to the door to leave we stopped and the crowd was pushing behind to leave and we got pancaked against the wall..my hand went right down her shirt. At the same time she dropped her purse, so I bent down “quickly” and handed it to her just as we got outside and popped the umbrellas.
    All I could think of was Tug turning around just at the “right” time, but he didn’t and she never looked around or said anything..knew it was an unavoidable accident.


    But the Rose encounter certainly ranks right up there, and is why I don’t believe for a second his gambling started after his career ended. On the contrary, his affection for the horses goes back to the old Plant City days in Florida during spring training..there was a track close to the Reds’ facility and was Rose’s hangout when not at the park.

  387. Chuck Says:

    Keith Law is on ESPN now blaming Bryce Harper’s slump on fatigue and not being able to manage his caloric intake.

  388. Raul Says:

    Conversely, I’m crediting Michael Phelps’ gold medals to a healthy dose of nitrate-infused deli meats from Subway.

  389. Bob Says:

    As opposed to me, who credits them to a healthy dose of THC.

  390. Len Says:


    Good story, That must of been around spring training 1979 because Kaat was released by the Phillies in May of ‘79 and then played for the Yankees. Rose and Kaat only played together that limited time in 1979.

    Redding has been the double A affiliate for the Phillies for a long time, what type of work were you doing at Redding?

    I’ve heard rumors and such that Rose was betting on football, basketball and horses when he was player.

    Yeah, it’s hard to remember now but Luzinski was a big-time offensive player back in the middle-late 70’s, he actually finished 2nd in the MVP race twice. He’d hit a bunch of HR, hit .300, have a good on base, draw a bunch of walks, finish in the top 5 in Rbi’s every year. But he was slow and he was just a horrible fielder, one of the worst I’ve ever seen. I think the only way those Phillies teams could have had him in left all those years was to have Garry Maddux play Center. I always thought Luzinski was out of place in the astro turf, stolen base, National League of the 1970’s. He would of been better off playing int the 1940’s-1950’s or the 1990’s-2000’s.

  391. Chuck Says:

    “I’ve heard rumors and such that Rose was betting on football, basketball and horses when he was player.”

    Don’t kid yourself..he was betting on baseball too.

  392. Chuck Says:

    I remember Luzinski from his EL days..he was 1970 MVP..led the league in avg, runs, RBI, finished second in doubles and homers (by one, to Richie Zisk), was fourth in walks, finished third in OBP, second in slg and OPS and led in total bases.

    At age 19.

  393. Chuck Says:

    Luzinski was also a first baseman in the minors, didn’t play the OF at all until he got to Philly, were he was blocked by the immortal Tommy Hutton.

  394. Chuck Says:

    Didn’t have these type promotions when I was there.


    Just ten cent beer night..Schmidt’s..otherwise known as weasel piss.

  395. Chuck Says:


  396. Bob Says:

    Awesome story about Joyce. And everyone should know CPR.

    Also in the news: The head of the players union, Michael Weiner, has a brain tumor. Best wishes to him.

  397. Bob Says:

    Nick Swisher is hoping to match the deal Jayson Werth got. Someone needs to tell him baseball has a salary cup( cleverly hidden by a luxury tax instead of a straight-out policy) thanks to the new CBA

  398. Chuck Says:

    There are currently 29 ML teams laughing their asses off at Werth’s contract, and seeing as how Swisher is pretty similar, there’s no way he’s getting anywhere close to that..CBA or not.

  399. Len Says:


    Yeah, that was an odd move to put Luzinski in the outfield because of Tom Hutton. Then I seem to remember Willie Montanez playing 1b for awhile, then they brought Dick Allen back, then I think Richie Hebner was a first until Rose came in 1979. Willie Montanez is one of those guys that I go back and scratch my head and wonder how he lasted in the big leagues for 14 seasons? He was a first baseman who averaged .279 with 14 homers and a .329 on base.

    The Phillies were developed some good talent during the 1970’s-early 80’s: Schmidt, Luzinski, Bowa, Boone, Ruthven, Lonnie Smith, Ryan Sandberg, and Julio Franco.

    they also made some good trades getting, Mathews, Maddux, and Mcbride for basically nothing. They developed John Stearns but got McGraw for him.

    Then it seemed like it all fell apart in the 80’s when the traded Smith and Sandberg for nothing and then they included Franco in the 5 for 1 Von Hayes trade.

  400. Mike Felber Says:

    Once again Chuck, you did not understand & misstated what I said. Again, when you are proven wrong-like what I said bout what I do!—> your credibility as being fair minded & not wholly Ego bound would increase if you acknowledged it.

    I said that some like Ruth did great with a longer swing. And I referred to leverage/weight behind the swing. I did not say that a longer swing generally produces more bat speed. For most, a short swing is better, mainly due to fewed holes/problems.

    Good joke Raul, but if you really believe NYC ladies will walk away from you due top using a big word, you do not know the area yet. ANd if you think I would never adjust my speech for the audience, you know me only as a cliche/Straw Man.

    Lefty, I am relying on memory, but I thought Mantle’s bat weighed 38 ox. And that Ruth averaged ` a 40, but has been listed as something over 50 at heaviest.

  401. Chuck Says:

    “Again, when you are proven wrong-like what I said bout what I do!—>”

    I don’t give a shit what you do.

    And I’m getting weary of your Comment Nazi attitude.

  402. Chuck Says:

    Different game in the seventies and eighties Len, there were more non-major league talented guys playing then than almost any other era..except this one.

    Artificial turf created the need for a whole new breed of player..guys like Omar Moreno, McBride, Vince Coleman, etc who were speed only guys had long and surprisingly productive careers ONLY because they were turf players.

    Luzinski was a bad OFer, but he was a bad runner too. Compound that to playing on turf, he never had the chance to be a good fielder.

    Hutton, Montanez, Allen, Hebner, Rose.

    Five 1B-men in his first nine years, and none of them really added anything more than Luzinski could have if he was at first.

    I get the Phillies were abysmal when Luzinski came up and they were looking for offense, but Luzinski was at least as good as those other guys at first except maybe the first two, but a corpse could have played LF better.

    So you weaken to defensive positions for the sake of one bat.

    Sounds like Moneyball.

  403. Raul Says:

    Ivan Nova takes his 4.76 ERA to Chicago in an hour.

    Just another reminder of how little depth the Yankees really have.

  404. JohnBowen Says:

    As a tribute to Pesky, the Red Sox are all wearing #6 tonight.

    A nice touch, I think.

  405. Raul Says:

    That was quick. Jeter puts the Yankees up 1-0

  406. Raul Says:

    That was nice of the Red Sox.

    I think when Mantle died, the Yankees had black patches on the arm. I don’t remember if it was one game or the rest of the season. Mantle died in…95?

  407. Raul Says:

    Liriano loads the bases.
    Yankees score 1 on a fielder’s choice.


    Liriano is up to 26 pitches in the 1st inning

  408. Raul Says:

    With Jeter’s HR, that gives him 8 hits in his last 3 games. And there’s still 8 innings to go.

    Liriano is up to like 32 pitches, through the 1st.

  409. Lefty33 Says:

    @399 – The Phillies during that time were a product of The Pope as GM.

    The problem that broke up the team in the 80’s was Giles lack of wanting to spend on scouting, draft pick bonus money, and eventually payroll. They got too old and had dick in the minors to replace the core roster.

    That kind of cheapness just for the sake of being cheap led the team to suck after the ‘84 season, with the fluke exception of ‘93, for the next twenty years until Giles was ousted as Managing Partner in favor of Dave Montgomery.

  410. Len Says:


    Yeah, Luzinski should have definitely been moved to 1b early in his career. That seemed like position were they always kind of week.

    Yeah, i agree with your point on those speed guys from the 1970’s-early 80’s. Mcbride could at least play defense and he could hit .300 but I remember guys like Alan Wiggins, Miguel Dilone, Rodney Scott, Dave Collins, Tony Scott, Bob Dernier and Wilbur Howard. It’s even kind of amazing that players like Cesar Geronimo and Frank Tavaras played as long as they did.

    I kind of remember as a kid there was a lot of emphasis on switch hitting and speed. I remember I would go to a baseball tryout, probably around the senior league level and the coaches would basically just judge you by a stop-watch and how fast you could run a 100 yard dash. And then rather than work on being a better hitter on your natural side it seemed like they wanted everybody to learn how to switch whether they could even do it or not.

  411. Len Says:


    Mantle died in August of 1995, the Yankees wore a black arm band and a #7 I think on the right sleeve.

  412. Chuck Says:

    I’d go to tryout camps in high school/Legion/college and the first thing we’d have to do is run three 60’s..throw out the slowest and average the other two.

    If you didn’t hit a certain speed, see ya.

    That’s how they made cuts.

    You’d show up at 8 am with 200 kids, and by 10 there would be half that.

    I could run, but first camp I got cut because I didn’t think that’s how they did it, I was so pissed I never did that again.

    We never told anyone either, if you figure half the kids at a camp had never been there before it would make sense they didn’t know how cuts were made either.

    Increased our own odds.

  413. Mike Felber Says:

    I am not being a comment Nazi” Chuck. You don’t give a shit what I do? Wonderful, sweet as usual. The POINT is that & a bunch of other things, most recently what I said about swings & power, you get dead wrong.

    Then you never take responsibility for your errors. That is not being decent.

    Don’t like me correcting you? Then just take minimal care in what you say. Also, everyone can make an error. If I was putting it in gratuitously macho talk, I would say “man up” & be big enough to say whoops, my bad.

    If I totally misrepresented what you did, said, put words in your mouth, would you be a comment Nazi to call me on it?

    Nah, I would deserve the correction. And complaint if it jus’ keeps happening.

  414. JohnBowen Says:

    Mike, come now. You say “I am not being a comment Nazi” and then wrote 136 words about it.

    I think that’s what Chuck’s talking about. Brevity is the soul of wit, my friend.

  415. Chuck Says:

    “most recently what I said about swings & power, you get dead wrong.”

    No, Mike, I haven’t, and that’s what a comment Nazi means, you turn things around when you’re wrong and don’t think anyone notices or will take your side.

    “Don’t like me correcting you? Then just take minimal care in what you say”

    That’s also being a Nazi. If I say Jeter’s hitting .312 and he’s really hitting .322, it’s obviously a typo and no need to go all Gestapo on me, again, trying to come off as smarter than everyone.

    It’s all good though Mike, it’s just you being you.

    And a likely explanation why you can’t get laid.

  416. JohnBowen Says:

    All 5 of the Nats starters have WHIP’s between 1.100 and 1.200.

    Very impressive.

  417. Chuck Says:

    Billy Hamilton broke Vince Coleman’s all time professional stolen base record tonight with his 146th of the season.

  418. Raul Says:

    That is impressive of the Nats pitchers.

    Nice job by Hamilton. He still won’t amount to much in the Majors

  419. Mike Felber Says:

    I was not being witty John, I was making a point. And those points could not be made unless I wanted to do what Chuck often does, assert points absent evidence. I was not very long winded, & shorter is not necessarily better.

    Chuck just described what he meant, & it defies all logic. “comment Nazi” implies being critical of other’s comments. Now he says I turned things around & do not think others will take my side-last part makes no sense.

    SHOW me I turned anything around Chuck, ever. I do not think you are lying. But why are you mistaken? Because some folks confronted with their own bad conduct will go through all kinds of psychological gymnastics to avoid taking responsibility.

    A PERFECT example is you twisting things to suggest I was talking about correcting a small point of fact or a typo. No, this was about your proven mistakes about what I said, like saying what I do, getting it all wrong, saying what I said about a swing…

    I did not get nasty when you did these things. You just cannot take being wrong.

    Pure, brittle Ego.

    I shared that I have not had action lately, knowing full well you might be incredibly petty about that. Does not bother me.

  420. Raul Says:

    Do you ever shut the fuck up?????

  421. Chuck Says:

    “I shared that I have not had action lately, knowing full well you might be incredibly petty about that. Does not bother me”

    And yet, you thought it necessary to mention it.

    “You just cannot take being wrong.”

    I’m not..and that’s also the example you asked for about twisting things.


    I’m getting tired of this…Lefty and Hoss are the smart ones.

  422. Mike Felber Says:

    You saying “I’m not” is not an example Chuck. It is repeating a premise absent any evidence. I challenged you to show I twisted anything, you cannot.

    I did not find it “necessary” to mention it. I assume the least bad thing, that you are not trying to twist anything, just, as often, careless with interpreting things.

    Raul it is your problem that you get upset & mean. You are Constitutionally incapable of challenging Chuck, so you throw a fit about-me saying anything. That is not a peaceful or decent reaction.

    Now if I said something wrong or nasty, sure, call me on it. But you just cannot stand reading logical objections to misrepresentations of what I said or protesting a personal attack?

    Get a grip man.

  423. Raul Says:

    I’m defending Chuck because you’re constantly being one longwinded fuck and you’re being a bitch by always going off on some sanctimonious rant.

    You have no experience playing the game, coaching the game or managing the game.
    So you have no fucking basis to challenge Chuck or Lefty on anything regarding those facets.

    Quit being a petty bitch and responding to every goddamn thing and talk about something current in baseball that might be interesting.

  424. Mike Felber Says:

    Let’s see if folks can play nice with this issue. If interested in the subject.

    I think there is massive hypocrisy on this Congressman Aiken issue on all sides.

    I am a liberal & pro-choice. But why should this guy have to lose his career career?

    He apologized for the unfortunate phrasing of “legitimate” rapes. He was seemingly distinguishing between statutory rape, where it is not a necessarily fear based by force thing.under current law someone can be prosecuted for a 1 or 3 year age difference, which is absurd (though not what he was addressing).

    He is utterly ignorant thinking a woman’s body produces some secretion that most always prevents pregnancy, shockingly so. And Aiken has not answered THAT error.

    But the Republicans are throwing him under the bus because it will hurt him politically to be there. I would never vote for the guy, but IF you are pro-choice, you should just convince him he is wrong, not throw him to the wolves. They are only doing what is politically expedient, but you do not so casually ruin a man’s career.

    Biden did not seem much different telling a largely black audience that they want to put y’all back in chains.

  425. Mike Felber Says:

    You kidding Raul? Anyone should be Cchlenged when they get mean & personal, like YOU now. Cslling someone a bitch & DROPPING f-BOMBS IS THE DEFINIOTION OF PETTY. And mean.

    1) I was clearly talking about never admiti9ng or apologizing for errors of FACTS, like what I said or what I do. That has NOTHING to do with the game, & CHuck brought it up.

    2) You really believe that if someone does not have that experience (besides street ball & a couple years of Little League), they cannot comment & must be wrong?

    Thank you Mr. Censor. Folks who have much experience often have very different ideas. Joe Morgan had great experience & success & is an ignoramus.

    Stop telling me what to say or not, mind your own neck, & discuss what you wish without the vicious insults.

    I doubt you function or could get through life peacxefully this way acting this way in person, so do not do it here.

  426. Len Says:


    good point on the Nats starting pitching.

    Jordan Zimmermann’s is one of the best pitchers in the N.L. this season and he has been totally overlooked because he has a 9-7 record. But he’s 2nd in the N.L. with a 2.54 era and 7th with a 1.115 whip and 9th with a 4.00 k/bb ratio. He’s gotten some crappy run support.

    I went back and checked his starts:

    He’s had 4 no decisions and he actually lost a game where he gave up 1 earned run.

    He’s had 2 no decisions and he lost 2 games where he only gave up 2 earned runs.

    He’s had 1 no decision and 2 loses in game where he only gave up 3 earned runs.

    He easily could be 18-4 if he had received a win in games where he only gave up 2 or 1 earned runs.

    Gio Gonzalez has a 3.78 era and a 1.35 whip 16-6 because he’s been getting great run support.

  427. Raul Says:

    I’ll use whatever fucking language I fucking please with whatever fucking insults I desire to fucking use.

    Don’t like it? Go elsewhere.

    Everyone is getting really tired of your Internet policing bullshit. And everyone is getting really tired of you constantly being wrong about things and never admitting it.

    Just because you want to write a 300-word response to every goddamn thing doesn’t mean someone has to do the same in return to prove you don’t know what you’re talking about.

  428. Raul Says:

    and I’ll be frank…

    You’re probably a polite and pleasant person, Mike.
    But you’re also severely pedantic. You act like you know everything and you act like you’re always right. And all that does is make you come across looking like a fucking asshole.

    You’d be served well to learn how to be a little more modest . Or get your ass kicked.

    And i don’t give a flying fuck how mean that sounds.

  429. Mike Felber Says:

    Dude, that is really nasty. How can you live with yourself when you act this way & presume to call another petty just for responding politely? This conduct is Beyond the Pale.

    We BOTH told the other to behave differently. Problem is, you just obscenely try to censor me. I tell you to not be maliciously abusive. Only one “imperative” is remotely justifiable.

    No, I will stay & if you want to act like a malicious child, I will just call you at it until the end. In person if someone tried to shut me up ABUSIVELY, likewise, I would respond non-abusively, if he attacked me, overpower him & have him arrested. If I can.

    No, you & Chuck are “everyone”. It is NOT policing to say do not be abusive, & call folks on factual mistakes & not owning up to them.

    DO you realize that you have merely COPIED my long complaint above about Chuck not admitting being wrong? About things about ME even!

    I do not know if you are paying much attention to the details or merely reacting angrily. When folks get emotional they TEND to be less rational.

    You only need scroll up a bit & you can see I VOLUNTEERED I was wrong about twp (2) things in one post. When have you done so?

    I am as exacting of myself as others. If you did not see that, I lead off with it & ENUMERATED my errors, you must admit you are being emotional, mot rational.

    Suuure, here you can be abusive & nasty & viciously racist. Wait a minute you say, I am not at all racist, I am a minority, progressive, would never do that last thing.

    Right you are. And they are all categories of hate & abuse, whether personal or towards a group. None decent nor brave.

    You are “free” to do so here. Is all you can get away with fine to do?

  430. Raul Says:

    “How can you live with yourself when you act this way..”


    and you wonder why everyone on this site thinks your an arrogant asshole

  431. Mike Felber Says:

    Lol! Do you need me to WALK you to the post where I started off highlighting my mistakes Raul? Folks tend to hate what they see, or project, upon others.

    You complaint against me amounts to me not being modest? Where am I bragging, I am not ad hominem, AND I admit I am wrong when I believe so. You got nothing here.

    You have thrown in your psychological fortunes with Chuck is all, & ANYTHING I write triggers animus. That is your problem, not immodest of me.

    Wishing someone to get beat up is mean. And tends to lead to more violence. Has not happened in my adult life, I do not recall it as a kid.

    Is that just ’cause I am big? No, the vast majority of folks are not vicious. More likely when drinking. I do not make folks want to hurt me, do you?

    And being pedantic is no crime. It should not upset you so.

  432. Mike Felber Says:

    Because you called me petty merely for responding, & are malicious & abusive instead of rational. That is petty, but being mean is worse than being petty.

    I already corrected you about “everyone”.

    Oh, & in ADULT & real life, the public sphere, politics, social clubs, barrooms that are not the lowest stereotype of Cracker Hell…

    It is the one who calls names, curses, gets personally derogative…Who is considered the A-Hole.

  433. Len Says:

    Man, why do these posts always get so angry and crazy on this web site? It’s not that big a deal.

  434. Mike Felber Says:

    Amen Len.

    Do you think that part of the reason Clemens is pitching is that if he can make the majors he will delay his HOF candidacy for 5 years, thus not be rejected a bunch of times, & he will have better odds when he is eligible again?

  435. Chuck Says:

    You mentioned Mike your comment numbers aren’t lining up, but I will point out comment #424 is what we’ve been talking about..no one here gives a flying rat’s ass about Congressman Aiken.

    This is a baseball website, conversations/topics about other subjects should be avoided/limited at all times.

    For two weeks, the Olympics were relevant and the occasional “Holy shit, you see Phelps last night!” would be acceptable.

    For a couple of months in the spring the NHL/NBA playoffs are at the forefront, or the NCAA’s, a mention is certainly within reason, especially considering our timezone issues and not having the ability to see the late SportsCenter for highlights takes care of that.

    Bob mentioned the passing of Andy Griffith recently..iconic figure, we all know his body of work, ten “RIP” comments are respectful and relevant.

    I have CNN news feeds, I can spell “Yahoo” and “Google”, if I was interested in the Aiken situation there are more than enough forums for me to express those opinions.

    Let me ask..did you post the same comment on High Heat Stats? And, if not, why?

    If there actually was an administrator here Mike, YOU would be the one banned, not any of us. Sure, we’d have to be more careful with the language and what-not, but that’s easy.

    The only thing I care less about than the Aiken situation is your opinion of the Aiken situation.

    From this point forward, please show us all the respect we deserve and whatever is left of this site and keep your comments/opinions limited to baseball.

    If you find yourself unable to do that, then I second Raul’s suggestion to move along.

    Thankyou, Mike, I appreciate you listening.

  436. Bob Says:

    Mike, Jimmy the Greek had his career ruined for comment he made.Thomas Eagleton had his career ruinded for comments he made.
    A shitload of others had careers ruined or changed for comments they made.

    Why should Akin be treated differently?

  437. Chuck Says:

    Harper 0-4 last night with 4 K’s…avg now .247 with a .734 OPS.

    I think we can safely say his ROY chances are gone.

    Issue for me, even considering the off-field side..is why he’s still hitting second..and why he’s not being benched against lefties?

    Personally, with all his struggles, I would have sent him down, but once MLB manipulated him into the AS game alongside Mike Trout Washington’s hands became tied, but this is a potential playoff team and he’s not producing enough to warrant full time play.

  438. Bob Says:

    I agree. Give him 2 days off. And pitch Strasburg. Though I believe I saw on the clicker that Boras agrees with the Nationals plan. Though not having access to his medicals, perhaps I should defer to the powers that be.

  439. Chuck Says:

    I respect Rizzo..he’s a scouting guy (and a nice guy, talked to him a couple of times in the AFL), but I think he’s putting the cart in front of the horse here.

    If the Nationals were 46 1/2 games out like they usually are, fine, let him get to 160 and shut him down. He’s at 145 now and there’s a month left in the season, so what is he going to miss, two or three starts? Big deal.

    But Washington’s in a pennant race and at this point is pretty much a lock for a spot..providing their best pitcher continues to pitch.

    There are other ways around the issue..put him on a college rotation..one start per week..pull him after five..only pitch him at home…whatever.

    Once you shut him down you can’t change your mind, that’s it.

    So if it’s Game seven of the NLCS and Strasburg hasn’t pitched in three weeks, you can’t ask him to start..would cause more problems than the ones you’re trying to avoid.

    Not smart.

  440. Bob Says:

    The Brewers released Randy Wolf.

  441. Chuck Says:

    Guess we won’t be seeing John for a couple of days.

  442. Bob Says:

    Yeah. I would take Prozac if the Sox cut Wolf, or someone similar to him.

  443. Patrick Says:

    I’m surprised that Mike is behind the 6 term congressman Akin. It’s more than a stupid statement to say that a woman can shut down her reproductive abilities if she so desires.

    I feel sorry for him because, well, because I don’t even know anyone that dumb, much less a Congressman.

    I knew that Congress was a little dim-witted but…..wow.

  444. Len Says:


    you bring up some interesting points on Rizzo/Strasburg. I was thinking that they should have limited his starts early in the season so he would’t be boxed into a corner now. Or maybe like you said put him on a college rotation of one start per week.

  445. Chuck Says:

    At the beginning of the season, did anyone really believe the Nationals would be in this position..especially considering they played without Werth and Zimmerman for so long?

    I’m sure Rizzo was just doing what GM’s do in spring training..punking sportswriters..but deep inside he was probably complaining to his wife over breakfast that it was going to be another long season.

    And Jordan Zimmermann had TJ two years ago..how come he’s not on an innings count?

  446. Lefty33 Says:

    The Nats are getting about 5K per game in attendance more than last year but to me it’s sad that they are still dumping tickets on Groupon again this year for about the 6th or 7th time.

  447. Chuck Says:

    Due to a scheduling error, the Dbacks will play their first doubleheader at home in franchise history today..Tyler Skaggs makes his ML debut in game one.

  448. JohnBowen Says:

    Now Bartolo Colon has tested positive for testosterone, as well as bacon (probably).

  449. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck, your comments were measured & non-abusive now. That decency is appreciated to. But something does not make any sense.

    I agreed not to discuss politics: then when I noted I had it was said that Chuck WITHDREW that preference, & you agreed. Do you not recall I said that while others discuss many other things at length-including recently, it is way beyond the occasional mention of something else than baseball-I respected what you did to keep this place alive, & while it especially on a sparsely populated it seemed fine, I would abide by that. I still stayed restrained on politics.

    I only brought a political issue up now as a distraction to something more emotionally neutral. I am not gonna not respond when someone else is addicted to high strung comments telling me to shut up, but I did this as almost an olive branch.

    If you have changed back AGAIN, um, OK, fine. I will just respond to Patrick & Bob by saying I am not supporting him at all, & it is questionable whether any of those guys should have their career ruined for ignorant comments. If you want to discuss it further, let’s do so off this site.

    Your challenge about High Heat Stats: good question. I just responded to comments on High Heat Stats where 2 guys used commie-pinko gratuitously, & John Austin, the driving force there, when he said he did not like to see advertisements for Christian Singles there since it was exclusive. I said though an atheist & liberal it should not matter if folks prefer to date within their group, & religion can be ugly fundamentalism or very evolved moral philosophy.

    I would not go on at length about politics there if others did not, because like here, I would respect the preferences of the site. Setting strong limits about those things or NOT: you can make an arguument either way. When there are few folks you can make a good case for the tolerance engendered at permitting folks to do so amicably.

    But again, I kept my word before until you changed the stricture back, & will respect your right to re-regulate things.

    Lastly, no, I would not be banned, because it is easy for me to follow the rules as stated. Is it so easy for folks who curse & make personal, mocking & sometimes cruelly intended attacks to regulate their language? Depends on the individual, I do not know.

    Though the more it is a nasty personal insult/attack rather than just salty language, the more likely that it is a personality problem & habit that would be tough to break.

  450. JohnBowen Says:

    444 words. Seriously.

  451. Chuck Says:

    Thank-you, Mike.

    I made the reference to “comment Nazi”, and now here I am coming across as somesort of “site Nazi”, and that’s not at all my intent.

    The last thing I want to do/portray is an aversion to our constitutional rights, but at the same time some of our more heated comment threads come from off-topic discussions.

    Bob is right, there are other situations when prominent people have committed career suicide by a misguided comment (Al Campanis?), but I see no point in discussing it in general, whether it here or elswhere.

    True..Bob and Patrick did respond to you in this forum and deserve the same right of response in the same forum.

    Like Raul said, though, we have a prominent, potential batting champ suspended for PEDS, we have a division leader considering shutting down it’s best pitcher, the Pirates are on the verge of breaking a 20 year losing streak, and yet all we can find to talk about is some ass-wipe politician?

    Even you can do better than that, Mike, and, if not, then the rest of us shouldn’t be bothered.

  452. Chuck Says:

    Here you go, Raul..maybe you can make the AFL after all..


  453. JohnBowen Says:

    So, Ryan Braun now has 1 more home run than he did all of last year. When he was the MV fucking P.

  454. Chuck Says:

    Homeruns lead to stupid things like RBI’s, when he starts walking more, call me.

  455. JohnBowen Says:

    If Ryan Braun played for the Yankees, he would have about 110 RBI’s.

    Sweet stat, brah.

  456. Chuck Says:

    If Ryan Braun played for the Yankees, he’d be batting sixth.

  457. JohnBowen Says:

    He would be batting third, maybe 4th.

    He wouldn’t all of a sudden become a .280 hitter just because he has to face David Price twice a year.

  458. JohnBowen Says:

    Ryan Braun hits third…in the all-star game.

  459. Chuck Says:

    If you played for the Yankees, you’d have 70 RBI’s.

    Christ, even Nyjer Morgan would have double digits.

  460. Chuck Says:

    Mets shut down Johan for the rest of the year.

    Good move.

  461. Mike Felber Says:

    You were doing well & maturely until the “even you can do better” swipe Chuck. I see much merit in discussing important issues, but again, if now you do not want it so, that is fine. I already had thrown out a comment & question on Clemens even in the midst of all the unnecessary heat.

    I also commented on Cabrera’s suspension just before. It was all worthy to discuss, I am abiding by your preference since you have kept this place alive, & anyway a very few have issues (a whole subscription) with different opinions.

  462. Chuck Says:

    “You were doing well & maturely until the “even you can do better” swipe Chuck”

    And you would do better to ignore it.

    “see much merit in discussing important issues,”

    Congressman Akin is not a baseball player, therefore his “issues” are not important.

  463. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, so I should enable mild bullying by not replying, instead of you taking responsibility & admitting that was uncalled for. And inaccurate, since in the midst of everything I wrote about two (2) topical baseball issues.

    Nah, that would not be the best course of action for the common good. Feel free to exercise the self control to stop taking baseless & personal shots though.

    I said an important issue in general. Redefining what you want here, I said Cool ‘n the Gang.

  464. Bob Says:

    Mike, let’s go. You said the Republican base was being too sinister regarding the comments made by Akin. I repsonded by saying that is how the big leagues work and cited Jimmy the Greek and Thomas Eagleton. ( Chuck cited Campanis)
    Now I will add Anthony Weiner into the mix as I feel the need to add someone more current. The Democrasts told him to leave. He did. Gary Condit got treated shabbily after his idiotic comments rgarding Chandra Levy. People and groups sometimes feel a need to draw a line in the sand and say don’t FUCKING CROSS IT. Sometimes that warning is ignored. Then you need to brace for the repercussions.
    Congressman Akin just implied that rape is both legitimate and non-legit. The Republican base (read his doners) vehemently disagree. He crossed their line and feel he should be punished. Do you?

  465. Bob Says:

    Also, if Chuck wants this topic banned from the site, I have no issues with that decision. Mike. we could respond off-site. I just find it curious that a liberal is trying to advise the Republican base. And yes, I would find it interesting if the roles were reversed.

  466. JohnBowen Says:

    “If you played for the Yankees, you’d have 70 RBI’s.

    Christ, even Nyjer Morgan would have double digits.”

    Careful, Chuck – you’re dangerously close to affirming my beliefs about that particular statistic.

  467. Mike Felber Says:

    Bob, Chuck both said it was appropriate for me to respond to you & that we should discuss other things. I have repeatedly said I have no problem with politics being off the menu here, this is a preference that is easy to make & justifiable either way. Chuck has gone back & forth on it.

    So as before, I stick to my word so am not addressing the topic at all here, & do not need the last word on this web site on the topic. I am happy to respond to each point in Talmudic detail to every point you have made. You have my E-mail above, just write me.

  468. Patrick Says:

    If Ryan Braun was on the Yankees.

    Braun has 499 WBR (weighted baserunners- 1 for 1B, 2 for 2B and 3 for 3B) in 501 PA. That gives him a .996 OPR (1.0 is league average)

    He has 83 RBI in 501 which translates to .1657 rbi rate. That is divided by his OPR of .996 and his RPR (run production rating) is bumped to .1663

    Curtis Granderson has 536 PA, 73 RBI, 522 WBR
    .974 OPR, RBI Rate .1362 = .1398 RPR

    Tiexeira has 486 PA, 80 RBI, 564 WBR(most on Yankees)
    1.160 OPR, RBI Rate .1646= .1419 RPR

    What this all means is Braun would have 2 less RBI(81) hitting with Grandy’s opportunities and 13 more (96) hitting with Tex’s

    8 more than Grandy and 16 more than Tex

  469. Patrick Says:

    BTW, The .166 RPR that Braun has is usually one of the top 2 or 3 in the majors.

    Hank Aaron and Albert Pujols are right around there for their entire careers.

    *OPR = Opportunity Rating

  470. Chuck Says:

    “I said an important issue in general”

    I swear to God you have AHDH..

    This is a fucking baseball website, with a small latitude for other “sports” related issues.

    There is NOTHING political that would be considered acceptable, important, or general here.


    Am I fucking clear with you?


    Take your politics..your music..your OWS and shove it.

    It is not welcome here..under any disguise of “importance”.

    Stop..now..last time telling you.

  471. Chuck Says:


    Morgan set two MLB records this year..longest stretch for getting his first RBI..and longest stretch for reaching double digits.

  472. Mike Felber Says:

    NO Chuck, you cannot concentrate to comprehend basic, even SHORT, comments.

    I said many times that I would abide by the no politics stricture. Saying it is important in general was NOT commenting on it, nor trying to do so here.

    I even did NOT reply to Bob’s repeated comments, told him to contact me offline to discuss.

    Many have cared about MANY political issues. YOU HAVE REVERSED YOURSELF a couple of times ABOUT whether there can be politics here.

    When you FIRST did not want it I abided, & I said I would not now, & stuck to it.

    Your serious Anger Management issues have made you not even understand basic agreement, not take yes for an answer…

    And be mean & childish.

    All know you will not admit at least a non-trivial error or moral flaw. But this is a big one.

    BECAUSE you are chronically angry &/or moody, even when I TELL ALL HERE SEVERAL TIMES I am not gonna discuss politics, you get abusive about it as if I will.

    Relax before responding, exercise some attention to detail, & thus NOTICE when someone is being nice to you.


  473. Lefty33 Says:

    @421 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciq_JwomTZA

  474. Patrick Says:

    Miguel Cabrera 601 WBR, 537 PA, 1.12 OPR, 105 RBI, .196 RBI Rate, .175 RPR

    Hamilton 644 WBR(most in league), 492 PA, 1.309 OPR(highest I’ve found this year), 102 RBI, .207 RBI Rate,
    .158 RPR

    Trout – only 369 WBR, 459 PA, .804 OPR, 70 RBI, .153 RBI Rate, Major League leading .190 RPR

    When I did my research on this subject about 4 years ago, I think there were about 10 seasons since 1954 that someone had an RPR of .190 or higher.

    Trout is easily the MVP

  475. Patrick Says:

    To put that into perspective, if Trout batted in Hamilton’s spot, he would have 122 RBI right now.

    .190 RPR multiplied by 492 PA = 93.48 multiplied by 1.309 OPR = 122.37 RBI

    RPR neutralizes RBI to WBR = PA, which is league average

  476. Chuck Says:

    OK, Mike, so here’s the deal.

    With my old Admin password, which still works, my wife the programmer can go into the Wordpress backend here and can highlight your information and hit the delete button and you will cease to exist.

    If there’s a choice between losing you and your pompous, full of yourself bullshit or the actual relevant contributions from Lefty and Braut, then guess who loses?

    So, the ball is now in your court..you can play nicely with others, you can add positively to the conversations at hand without deviation, or you can find another sandbox to play in.

    Consider this your only warning, if you go to log in or submit a post and get the “banned” message, feel free to kiss my ass at .

    First time you cross the line..


  477. Patrick Says:

    LOL Chuck! Is that what happened to me?

  478. Chuck Says:


    She probably could have fixed whatever it was though, just wasn’t doing the programmer stuff back then.

  479. Patrick Says:

    @473 Good advice. Eat a peach and chill….

  480. Bob Says:

    Chuck, blame me for the last one. I emailed Mike. Am awauting his response. Again sorry to the group for prolonging that issue.

  481. Chuck Says:

    Look, we’re an informal group here, what’s left of us, drifting occassionally to a non-sports topic is within reason, but it still has to have relevance.

    Patrick lives outside of Tampa and is under a hurricane warning..I would say that’s relevant to Patrick, so then to the rest of us.

    We’re all concerned with the well being of Cameron, but he did tell us he’d be gone for awhile due to changes in his living arrangements and not having computer access. If someone wants to drive to Dayton and check on him, be my guest.

    Talking about some politician’s loose tongue, under the premise of an “olive branch” is not acceptable. Mike could not have posted that comment on High Heat Stats without it immediately being followed up with a warning from an admin.

    I’m an admin and moderator here, http://www.chef2chef.net/, if you make a post,

    “Should you use unsalted butter in your pie dough, and oh, by the way, did you hear what Congressman Akin said”, you’d be banned for being off-topic.

    Like I said, a couple of dozen comments about the passing of Andy Griffith is acceptable, a 50 comment pissing match about OWS is not, and that’s what I’m putting an end to.

    Raul politely told Mike the other day that if he didn’t like it here he could move along, Mike was adamant he would not and proceeded to continue with his nonsense, so I’m now going to make the decision.

    He plays by our rules, or he doesn’t play.

  482. Patrick Says:

    Raul made a strong comment the other day about the WAR debate ruining the site in light of all the real baseball going on presently.

    Even though I instigated and prolonged the debate, I knew Raul was right, even before he wrote his tirade.

    An argument has two sides but no end.

    Everybody needs to know when they already made their point and when it’s time to move on. Beyond that, email is a good idea, especially if it’s an argument about politics, morals and values. At least WAR was a debate about baseball(kind of).

  483. Patrick Says:

    Chuck, you use salted butter in the pie dough, don’t you?

  484. Bob Says:

    Speaking of debates, who is the front-runner for AL Cy Young?

    1. Sale?
    2. Price?
    3. Hernandez?
    4. Weaver?
    5. Verlander?
    6. I ranked them in no order.

  485. Chuck Says:

    With me not having written anything of late (anywhere, you can check), and John getting settled after his move, we’re in a bit of a drought here. Hopefully I’ll be back up and running soon, a likely case with the AFL starting in six weeks, and John’s always been good about posting an appetizer here and there while he’s working on the main course.

    Thomas and Kerry can write as well…whethe their absences are in any way related to the increase in off-topic topics I can’t answer to, I do know Hossrex’ in and out pattern over the past year or so is directly Mike related.

    If any of you guys think I’m being unreasonable let me know, I want the site to get back to what it used to be and what it should be, these endless my dick is bigger than yours is starting to wear on me.

    Argue all you want about WAR or Tim Raines or the clubhouse menu in Boston, Penn State or UCONN’s NCAA ban, bring it on.

    Arguing about Tim Tebow the football player is acceptable, arguing about his religious beliefs is not.

    It really shouldn’t be THIS difficult, should it?

  486. Chuck Says:

    #483..of course.

  487. Bob Says:

    Actually, there was no debate about the menu in Boston’s clubhouse. It was beer and fried chicken!!!

  488. Bob Says:

    Speaking of beer and fried chicken ( and salted butter) Josh Beckett is on waivers.

  489. Patrick Says:

    Yesterday, I was browsing through posts when I saw Cameron’s post about checking into a homeless shelter. I had not seen that. I’ve felt badly ever since.

    I see why everyone is worried. It’s a hard world on the streets.

  490. Chuck Says:

    “Speaking of beer and fried chicken ( and salted butter) Josh Beckett is on waivers.”

    So is Adrian Gonzalez.

  491. Bob Says:

    And Ohio winters can be harsh.

  492. Patrick Says:

    Cameron is in Ohio? He has just enough time to walk to Florida before it gets cold.

    Seriously? Adrian Gonzalez? What a financial mess Theo left them.

  493. Bob Says:

    I believe he was living in Niles, Ohio. And Patrick, as Chuck alluded to in an earlier post, how are you guys ( Floridians) holding up?

  494. Chuck Says:

    Yeah, his situation sucks.

    He moved with a friend to Ohio and got left holding the bag when she brought in a cousin to room with her, leaving Cam homeless and jobless in a strange city.

    In KC, at least he had some buddies and relatives he could have couch surfed on for awhile and had a refrigerator to raid.

    Maybe he can hitchike back.

  495. Chuck Says:

    Shaugnessy’s column in the Globe the other day said the Dodgers were interested in Gonzalez before the trade deadline but that Boston wanted prospects in return, and LA doesn’t have anything Cherington wanted.

    Not sure why they’re still talking, either Boston’s desperate to unload his money, or the Dodgers increased their offer.

    I vote B.

  496. Bob Says:

    Personally, I hope the Sox trade/somehow part way with either Lester or Beckett before Gonzalez. After seeing what Pujols/Fielder/Texiera earn, I have no issues with the salary he makes. Perhaps just me.

    See you guys in a few hours.

  497. Patrick Says:

    Bob, no worries yet on the hurricane but I’ll do whatever prep work I have to and then grab a beer. The path has it right over us on Tuesday morning as a Cat 1 but who knows?.

    The way I look at it is it can do anything I can’t undo, on my house anyway…

    I hope Cameron lands on his feet.

  498. Chuck Says:

    He moved up there in the spring..the Cubs (I think) have a Class A team in Dayton, which Cam said was about 20 miles from where he was. I offered to make a call to their Ops office, maybe my being a MiLB alumnus would have been enough for him to land a job at the concession stand or ticket office, but he blew me off, if I remember it was transportation related.

  499. Chuck Says:

    Everyday, or most everyday, I thumb through the “this day in history” page on BR and MiLB, just checking primarily the 1960’s, early ’70’s to see if I can flashback on anything.

    I don’t remember this, but on this date in 1964;

    “Mets pitcher Willard Hunter picks up half his career wins (4) today as New York sweeps the Cubs, 2 – 1, in 10 innings, and 5 – 4 in the nitecap. No one has ever won a pair more efficiently as he totals 1 2/3 innings of work. Bob Buhl and Don Elston pick up losses. The Cubs lose Ernie Broglio, who woke up with a locked elbow and will need surgery to repair the ulnar lateral ligament damage in his elbow. He’ll be 1-6 in 1965.”

    Surgery to repair a UCL in 1964?

    He was done by 1966, actually mid-season.

  500. Patrick Says:

    *can’t do anything I can’t undo.

    Adrian Gonzalez isn’t worth what he’s getting paid, but he is at least a top 20 player. Hard to believe he’s on waivers but I wouldn’t want to pay him the rest of his contract either.

    Look at the burden Theo left the Sox. Lackey, Crawford, Beckett and even AGon at his price.

    If he hits 40 in SD, what will he hit in Fenway? Uhhhh, 20

  501. Patrick Says:

    @499, yeah, I think in 1964 they opened the elbow with a hatchet. It’s a wonder he even threw the next year.

  502. Chuck Says:

    On this date in 1972;

    Chicago’s Dick Allen becomes the 4th major league player, joining Jimmie Foxx, Hank Greenberg, and Alex Johnson to reach the CF bleachers at Comiskey Park. The blast, off New York’s Lindy McDaniel, caps the Chisox’ 5-2 win over the Yanks. As part of a season long promotion, all Wednesday home games are played during the day, with Sox broadcaster Harry Caray calling the action from a special booth set up in the bleachers. Allen’s homer clears Caray’s location and lands several rows behind him.

    I can just hear Caray now..by the seventh inning he would have been pretty oiled, probably dropped a couple of f-bombs on the air.

  503. Patrick Says:

    I remember hearing about that HR.

    Lol at Caray. He’s a legendary drunk on par with WC Fields.

  504. Chuck Says:

    I remember seeing Caray about 20 years ago or so in Peoria during ST.

    It was around noon time or so and the game hadn’t started yet and he was “walking” through the stands to the press box and was being supported by someone and was clearly intoxicated.

  505. Patrick Says:

    Harry Kalas was another guy who could hit it hard.

    I was at the Convention Center for wedding 4 or 5 years ago in Pittsburgh the same weekend the Phillies were in town and staying at the same place. Harry was pretty staggered all three days in the same pink sport coat.

    His son Todd is excellent for the Rays.

  506. Chuck Says:

    See, I never would have guessed that, not that I would have had reason to.

    I met him twice (about 25 years apart) and he was as nice a guy as you could meet.

  507. Chuck Says:

    Well, that didn’t take long


  508. Raul Says:

    To respond to Bob,

    I have no idea who is the AL Cy Young. I’m tempted to say Weaver. I mean for an ERA-leader, he seems to float under the radar as an elite pitcher.

  509. Raul Says:

    Skip Bayless is a soulless weasel and should go away with the likes of Jay Mariotti

  510. Patrick Says:

    Maybe it was just that weekend, I think it was July of 08′. He was a great guy from what I saw. I didn’t meet him but we were at the same bar some of the weekend. My brother-in-law is a Philly fan and he pointed him out to me. He had a kind word for everyone who came over to say hello.

    To his credit, he had to refuse drinks because people kept sending them over.

  511. Chuck Says:

    Speaking of Mariotti..wasn’t he running for Congress or something?

    I seem to recall hearing something about that recently.

  512. Raul Says:

    My buddy texted me yesterday that the last five players to be suspended for PEDs are Dominican. And that I shouldn’t be surprised if the local papers ask me for comments.

    I responded that I’ll set up a website to handle all inquiries

  513. Raul Says:

    Mariotti in Congress?
    …I better not.


  514. Raul Says:

    While I’m at it, I don’t think the No Hitter was that big a deal for Johan Santana’s injury.

    Yeah, 130-something pitches. But they gave him like 10 days off. Dude was likely going to fall apart anyway.

  515. Chuck Says:

    LOL…at #512.

  516. Chuck Says:

    I think it’s pretty amazing what Santana did…a year ago some people (including me) were saying he was done.

    I don’t know who his trainer is, but he could make a shitload of cash marketing whatever program Santana was on.

    The went from the scrap heap to opening day starter in five months.

  517. Raul Says:

    The No Hitter was worth it. The Mets finally have one under their belt. They’ll market the hell out of it in the years to come.
    And Johan, while not giving the Mets a World Series title, will be beloved and should make a ton of money doing appearances at Mets events after his retirement.

    I mean let’s face it, this team wasn’t going to the World Series anyway this year

  518. Chuck Says:

    I believe Santana will end up as the only multi-Cy Young winner not in the HOF.

  519. Chuck Says:

    Nope..take that back..Denny McLain.

  520. Chuck Says:

    And Tim Lincecum…and Roy Halladay.

    List just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

  521. Raul Says:

    Oh man. That would have made a great trivia question.

  522. Raul Says:

    Are there multiple MVP winners that didn’t make the Hall?

  523. Chuck Says:

    Maris..Dale Murphy

  524. Raul Says:

    much as we talk about murphy, i should have guessed that one.

    I thought Maris only took one award

  525. Chuck Says:

    Juan Gonzalez is the other..three multiple MVP winners eligible but not elected.

  526. Chuck Says:

    Saberhagen and McLain are the only two multiple Cy winners not elected.

  527. Raul Says:

    Saberhagen had injuries, I think.

  528. Chuck Says:

    That’s a great trivia itself..who was the AL MVP in 1960, the year before Maris broke Ruth’s record.

    Maris was.

  529. Bob Says:

    Pujols will have an MRI on his calf.

  530. Bob Says:

    Who will have the better career, Bauer or Skaggs?

  531. Raul Says:

    no idea
    too early to tell

    i want to see how bauer does next season first

  532. Chuck Says:


  533. Len Says:


    my choices for A.L. cy young:


  534. Mike Felber Says:

    Bob, I did not see your E-Mail. I will check for it.

    Chuck, you just are not making any sense at all. When I point this out, you ignore it.

    1) I FOLLOWED your preference not to talk about politics. Then I was told, & you explicitly agreed, it was taken back. Then after I posted the Aiken comment as an olive branch-& had posted 2 other current baseball comments around then, you CHANGED YOUR MIND & wanted no politics.

    2) I said FINE & followed that. Still you MISTAKENLY thought I was arguing I wanted to post political conversations here, & were verbally abusive about it.

    3) Raul told me to shut up in general, not to abide by the no politics rule-which you had not changed BACK to by then. He has written PLENTY about politics, here, as have some others. He was polite at 1st, but despite having earlier committed to not being profane, became verbally abusive when he could not force me to stop commenting.

    That was an immoral attempt at bullying. I have never treated anyone who does this to me in (un)kind, whatever the provocation.

    4) I told you that you were wrong about Highheatstats.com, & gave specific EXAMPLES of politics posted there & my responses. Challenge me for the specific links if you like, if you can bear to be proven wrong.

    In the real world, any decent forum will ban personal attacks & abuse. The latitude to address subjects off topic varies widely.

    It is rare that someone so maligned & abused at a safe distance would NOT say F you back or go away. And has peacefully agreed to abide by your shifting rules.
    If there is any sense of justice & principal, you will not scapegoat the victim here by banning me after I patiently have put up with these personal problems.

    5) If you ban me it would be just a personal grudge. I EXPLICITLY agreed, now a couple of times, not to discuss politics each time, & have followed my word.

    Personally, just using salty language is not so bad, though seems crass & terminally angry/fake macho to me. Cameron was young & impressionable & adopted that persona to fit in, unfortunately.

    But what you should ban is personal name calling & derision. Rarely do adults do this in person, because the consequences are social ostracism or potential physical violence.

  535. Raul Says:

    i dont think kuroda deserves more votes than weaver

  536. Chuck Says:

    Thankyou for understanding, Mike.

    I had faith you would abide by what’s best for the site.

  537. Mike Felber Says:

    Um, you are welcome Chuck, But I repeatedly told you I would abide by your preferences, each time you altered them. The whole recent mess was unnecessary.

    Given the volatility of a few here, that policy likely is for the best. Ad hominem & personal/profanely attacking comments are not permitted at any respectable forum, online or otherwise.

    Folks get tired of giving the MVP to the same person. But the best guy should always get it. Maris seemed to get it in ‘60 due to this factor, & of course with 61 in ‘61 they had to give it to him again. But Bill James pointed out that Mantle should have won every MVP between ‘52 & ‘62, except for Minosa in ‘59.

    I am guessing that even saber-haters think that this is either true, or close to exactly right. The national league was stronger then, & Williams .388 in ‘57 was bested by Mantle’s all around great year.

  538. Chuck Says:

    Stop arguing Mike, this is why your on double secret probation.

    It’s not necessary to respond to every goddamn comment.

    You have a specific question to something I mentioned earlier, then ask.

    I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

  539. John Says:

    “And Tim Lincecum…and Roy Halladay.”

    Roy Halladay will be in the Hall of Fame, easily.

    Lincecum…too early to tell but man this year has been tough.

    Santana should’ve had 3 Cy Young awards in a row. The 2005 award to Bartolo Colon remains one of the most ridiculous travesties in the history of the award.

    With 3 Cy Youngs, Santana probably would’ve made it.

    With just the 2, he’s probably fucked. Oh well.

    As for AL Cy Young, it’s gotta be Verlander, when you look at the overall body of work and the innings pitched. I’d round out the top-5 with Sale, Price, Hernandez, and Weaver in that order.

    Mike, calm down. Talk about baseball. Not OWS. Not Democrats. Not legitimate rape. Do so concisely. Please.

  540. Chuck Says:

    “But Bill James pointed out that Mantle should have won every MVP between ‘52 & ‘62, except for Minosa in ‘59.”

    Consider the source.

    You can make an argument for Mantle in ‘58 & ‘59 but that’s it.

  541. John Says:

    Kuroda’s been money this year. He might grab some 4th and 5th place votes as well…he certainly has earned them.

  542. John Says:

    “You can make an argument for Mantle in ‘58 & ‘59 but that’s it.”

    1955. Seriously. Look at that year.

    Led the league in OBP, SLG, OPS+, WAR, home runs, walks, and even triples.

    Not enough RBI?

  543. Chuck Says:

    Halladay retires today, he’s not a HOFer.

    He won’t get to 3000 innings or 2500 strikeouts and with two years left on his contract and at his current pace won’t get to 230 wins.

    There are worse pitchers in the HOF already I suppose, but that doesn’t mean we need to compound the problem.

  544. Chuck Says:

    I thought he won in ‘55 John, so I never looked at it..you’re right..although Berra wasn’t really a “bad” choice.

  545. Len Says:


    Maris was a good choice in 1960 but Mantle should have won it in 1961 without a doubt. Maris season was very good but they gave it to him because he broke Ruth’s record. Even if they didn’t give it to Mantle it should have gone to Norm Cash.

    Mantle: .317/.448/.687, 1.135 ops, 54 hr, 128 rbi, 131 runs, 126 walks, 174 runs created

    Cash: .361/.487/.662, 1.149 ops, 41 hr, 132 rbi, 119 runs, 124 walks, 178 runs created

    Maris: .269/.372/.620, .992 ops, 61 hr, 141 rbi, 132 runs, 94 walks, 138 runs created

  546. Mike Felber Says:

    I have NOT talked about that stuff John-have you been following along? I AGREED to things when policy changed each time. Any complaint beyond that is Ego based projection. And I was not even arguing above at all. I concisely stated my opinion. I did not curse & “scream” here, how could I be more “calm” even in the face oif personal attacks?

    Now let’s try again with non-pissing match substance. I cannot imagive there could be an objection to replying to this MVP topic I brought up.

    Mantle did not deserve any of those other years?! He was better than Maris in ‘61 (201 OPS to 167, & 12-1 Sb/CS)even when closed down at the end of the year by illness. But most will not get past the historic record, so forget that.

    He was better than Williams in ‘57, even though about the highest OPS + to be # 2 ever (221). He fielded a more important position better, & 16-3 SB/CS.

    WAR has him best 6, not those 8 years, though 1 is ‘59.

    But Chuck: Nobody in the AL was CLOSE to him in ‘56. 150 games, 206 OPS, 10/1 on base paths, good glove for CF.

    Sure you do not want to say at least ‘56 Mantle was by far the best in the league?

  547. Mike Felber Says:

    Len, you show an offense in ‘61 that has Manle beaten out, just marginally, by Cash. But he was better on the base paths-OK, that is a small matter, few SB.

    But he played a much more important position than 1B better. Would you not thus say that Mantle was better than Cash in creating value in ‘61?

  548. Chuck Says:

    Not arguing the years Mantle did win Mike, just the ones he didn’t.

    Maris was not a bad choice in ‘61, or even Berra in ‘55.

    Joe DiMaggio in ‘41 was a bad choice.

    I can imagine sitting around the old transistor when the voting was announced and not believing what you heard.

    James said Mantle “should” have won every award between ‘52-’62..this is flat out wrong..if he said “could have”, then he’d at least have something worthy of debate.

  549. Bob Says:

    @ 533 & Len: Fair enough. My bad for omitting Kuroda.

  550. Len Says:


    I tend to not look at w/l record. Kuroda has a 2.96 era and a 1.12 whip which is impressive for the A.L. and that ballpark. He’s got a 142 era+.The Yankees would be battling for the second wild card spot if it wasn’t for him. What’s odd is that the Yankees are second in the majors in runs scored yet Kuroda is only averaging 4.0 runs in support per game start. He’s 42/59 among starters who qualify. Kuroda’s had some hard losses and no decisions this year. He LOST 2 games where he gave up 2 earned runs and lost 1 game where he gave up 1 earned run. He also has two no decisions in two games he gave up 2 earned runs.

    Weaver’s getting insane run support this year, 6.3 runs per game, best in the majors.

    Verlander would be running away with the Cy Young if he had any kind of run support: 3.7 runs per game which is 52/59. in the A.L. He has 3 losses and 6 no decisions in game in which he’s given up 3 earn runs or fewer. He actually had a no decision in a game he gave up zero earned runs in 8 innings.

  551. Len Says:


    No, I would have clearly chose Mantle because he played the more important position (CF) and because he’s team won the A.L. I’m just saying that Cash would have been a better choice than Maris.

    Actually if look it Mantle should have won 4 consecutive MVP’s from 1955-1958 and 1961 as well.

    Mantle easily should have won over Berra in 1955:

    Mantle 1955: .306/.431/.611, 1.042 ops, 37 hr, 99 rbi, 121 runs, 113 walks, 11 triples, 148 runs created.

    Berra 1955: . .272/.349/.470, .819 ops, 27 hr, 108 rbi, 84 runs, 60 walks, 90 runs created.

    Mantle led the A.L. in Home Runs, Triples, Walks, on base percentage, slugging percentage, ops, and runs created.

    There was a bit of a catcher bias for the MVP during the first 30-40 years of the award. I can’t see Berra deserving any of those 3 awards he won. 1954 was a bit odd because the Yankees didn’t even win the pennant that year.

    I’ve never understood the Jackie Jensen MVP in 1958 over Mantle. I guess they didn’t want to give it to Mickey 3 years in a row.

  552. John Says:

    “if he said “could have”, then he’d at least have something worthy of debate.”

    Isn’t that what James said?

    I mean, each one of those seasons was a big-time year.

    I think he should’ve won in ‘55, ‘58, and ‘61. Maybe ‘59. Him or Kaline.

    No way someone other than Al Rosen should’ve won the ‘53 award.

    Barry Bonds from 1990-2004, based on performance (steroids, obviously, ya know) was probably worthy of at least 10 MVP’s. All 7 that he won, 1991 and 1996 for sure, also led the league in WAR in 1995 and 1998. The only one of those FIFTEEN years where you can’t at least make an argument for Bonds is 1999.

  553. Chuck Says:

    “But Bill James pointed out that Mantle should have won every MVP between ‘52 & ‘62…”

  554. Len Says:


    You know when your talking about MVP’s going to the best player in the league, they could have given T. Williams, 6-7 awards, Willie Mays 8-9 awards, Hank Aaron 6-7 awards. Stan Musial 6-7 awards, Bonds, 9-10 etc. There is an inherent bias to the award once you win the award. Usually you have to surpass what you did to win the award multiple times.

  555. Chuck Says:

    Three Rays minor leaguers suspended 50 games for testing positive for meth.



  556. Raul Says:

    So Len’s argument for MVP is runs created.

    Sigh. At least he’s a bit smarter than Shaun.

    Anyway, Meth is a crazy drug. Disappointing to see these talented athletes with substance abuse problems.

    Pujols has a hurt calf.

  557. Raul Says:

    Tim Kirkjian might be the only legitimate reporter on ESPN these days. Love that guy

  558. Lefty33 Says:

    “He won’t get to 3000 innings or 2500 strikeouts and with two years left on his contract and at his current pace won’t get to 230 wins.”

    Halladay only has one year left.

    He won’t make the innings needed to make his ‘14 option happen.

    Plenty of talk already that if the Phils slop it up again next year he’ll be dealt to keep them under/around the tax threshold.

  559. Chuck Says:

    You’re right, Lefty..he won’t hit the two year innings requirement.

  560. John Says:

    And then what? He automatically has to retire?

    He’s very close to the HOF as it is.

    I don’t mean to trivialize his age but this will be the first time in 7 years that he doesn’t reach 30 starts and 200 IP. He’s averaged 32 and 236 from 2006-2011. He placed 2nd in the Cy Young balloting JUST LAST YEAR, and arguably should’ve won.

    Guarantee that Halladay gets enshrined.

  561. Raul Says:

    Probably won’t see many get 300 wins anymore..much less 275

    i could see halladay getting a big push by a lot of people if he gets around 250

    with pettitte still pitching, i don’t see any reason why halladay can’t stick around for 5 years if he wants to

  562. Len Says:


    How is my “argument” for MVP runs created?

    I listed 10-12 categories in the Mantle vs. Berra comparison. Mantle had 316 total bases Berra had 254, there’s another one. Mantle was easily the best player in the A.L. for 1955 and his team won the pennant and he should have easily won the MVP that year.

    Runs created isn’t even difficult to figure out, (hits + walks) x total bases divided by at bats + walks. That’s fifth grade math.

  563. John Says:


    Just kidding. Have a nice night gents.

  564. Raul Says:

    If you didn’t think it was a deciding factor, you wouldn’t have mentioned it

  565. Len Says:


    runs created is a fairly old stat, it’s been around for about 30 years so it’s nothing new and crazy, it’s very basic. Whatever, I listed 7 other categories. Mantle led the league in 7 offensive categories, he was clearly the best position player in baseball that year. Like I said to Mike there was a catcher bias in MVP voting back then, that’s why Berra won.

  566. Raul Says:

    I literally said nothing at all about how old the stat is.

  567. Raul Says:

    Prince Fielder is having a nice season, but not the one you would expect considering his contract.

  568. Raul Says:

    having given up 6 runs thus far to the red sox through the first two innings of work, cj wilson’s ERA is now up to 3.90

  569. John Says:

    “Prince Fielder is having a nice season, but not the one you would expect considering his contract.”

    Teams give dumb contracts all the time. 9 years will tell, but as far as FA contracts go, Fielder’s first year is nothing to be upset about. About a 150 OPS+ from 1B. Yeah, probably lousy defense but still.

    I personally don’t think Prince Fielder is a 20+ million dollar a year player. I love him as a player and all, but I think at the end of the day he just doesn’t contribute what I want out of a 20 million dollar a year player. Poor defense at an easy position with no speed (though a ton of hustle).

    If he hits like he did in 2007 or 2009 or 2011…maybe. But when you consider that he’s also put together a couple of sub-.880 OPS seasons in there? 5/100 was the right offer from the Brewers and I’m glad they didn’t even try to bid higher.

  570. Lefty33 Says:

    “don’t see any reason why halladay can’t stick around for 5 years if he wants to”
    It all depends on his health. Ever since he’s gotten off the DL he has not looked even remotely close to the pitcher he was even a year or two ago. He’s had major location and velocity issues.
    When guys his age and with the amount of innings and pitches that he’s thrown start to have arm issues that’s usually the beginning of the end at being dominant.
    Personally, I don’t think he’ll be relevant or around in three years let alone in five.
    “Guarantee that Halladay gets enshrined”
    As for John’s fake guarantee:
    Halladay is at a crossroads right now. If he retires this second he’s not a first ballot HOF player, he’s not a lock HOF player and at best he may have a shot on a weak 2012-like ballot but that’s about it.
    He comes across to me more as a Sabathia, Guidry, Mussina, Pettite, Saberhagen, Brown (pretending that PED’s don’t exist) type of pitcher who has been solid but has not done it for long enough to be lock material.

    He’ll never get 300 wins, or 275, or 250.
    He’ll never K 3000, 2750, and 2500 might be a stretch.
    His WHIP is good but there are other SP both old school and of more recent vintage that have no HOF chance that posses a better one than he’ll ever have.

    His candidacy right now rests on how much stock you put in ERA+ as being the end all-be all since that’s his strongest selling point. Yet other SP like Webb, Santana, Oswalt, and Wainwright all have a better number or are at least in the neighborhood and none of them will get one iota of consideration.

    IF he can somehow put 2012 behind him and be dominant again for another 4-5 years then I agree that you’re talking about a lock just like if he decides to pull a Carlton and limp along for another few years that will further dilute his candidacy to the point of possibly nothing.

  571. Lefty33 Says:

    The local Phillies Phans are showing their true colors this year.

    My local newspaper did a “groundbreaking scoop” today that season ticket holders are upset with the team because for the last few years they have been selling their tickets via Craigslist, Stub Hub and other resellers and in some cases have been pocketing several thousand dollars a year net of the actual costs of the tickets.

    That has helped supplement their incomes in this economy and they are upset now with the team sucking that they actually have to choose between going to the games or dumping the tickets on the same sites for pennies on the dollar.

    In last years NLDS one guy in the article who would not go on the record publicly said that he sold his two seats for around $500 a piece for all three games at CBP.

    He paid $450 ($75 X 6) and made around $3K and that counts nothing towards the regular season where he claims to have made several thousand more to the point that he made a “decent five figure” amount last year and that he’s been doing it every year with a bunch of his buddies who all have had seats now for the last few years.

    I’m staring now at tickets for next week’s series against the Mets with prices starting at $1.49 each on Stub Hub. The cheapest ticket at CBP is for SRO and they are $17 a piece.

    The tickets for $1.49 would normally face for $30 each.

    Totally fucking amazing to me.

  572. Mike Felber Says:

    You are right Chuck, James said “Should” have won. But I mistyped-while thinking the right years, what he said was ‘54-’62 except for ‘59, I wrote ‘52-’62. My bad.

    You meant the years he did not win it, OK. I agree Len that there was a catcher bias. Though that is the 1 position that it is very difficult to gauge total value + is the most valuable position player. Very hard to judge just how good they (were when doing it) at calling games & working with pitchers. Still,, Berra got to many.

    Also I have come to realize James had a Mantle bias. I love The Mick, but he was not the 6th best player ever. Could have been even higher than that if healthy & better lifestyle though.

    Runs created,m even unadjusted, are a pretty good tool to judge production relative to an era & park at least. A darn sight better than context dependent stats at figuring out how good an offense someone is putting up.

    Mantle had a career 172 OPS + & played on some juggernaut teams. Plus when Kerry long ago looked at “clutch” play, it was virtually non-existent over a large enough sample size.. Except Mantle showed it, something north of 10 % higher than his NORMAL production in those late & close & RISP situations. Yet we all know how few 100 RBI seasons he had. Era & who batted in front of him & walks depressed his RBIs.

    Bob, sorry I did not see your E-Mail. Just tell me what day & approximately what time you sent it please so I can find it!

  573. Chuck Says:

    “hits + walks) x total bases divided by at bats + walks, That’s fifth grade math.”

    So, RC was created by a fifth grader?

    Well, that explains it.

  574. Bob Says:

    Mike recieved my email. It got sent to Spam.

  575. Bob Says:

    California vs. Tennessee in the finals for the Americans in the LLWS.

  576. John Says:

    “He comes across to me more as a Sabathia, Guidry, Mussina, Pettite, Saberhagen, Brown (pretending that PED’s don’t exist) type of pitcher who has been solid but has not done it for long enough to be lock material.”

    1) Mussina should make it too, and Sabathia is well on his way.
    2) How long do you want him to do it for?

    From 2002-2011, which is a decade, Halladay ranks:

    1st in WAR (59.6)
    2nd in ERA+ (148) and raw ERA (2.97)
    2nd in IP
    1st in Wins
    1st in CG
    1st in SO
    1st in WP
    4th in K’s
    3rd in opponent OPS

    So that’s a decade of work, right there. And he’s not dead. He’s 35. He doesn’t even need to dominate, just have a couple solid years and he’s a lock.

    I guess his problem is that, unlike Morris, he didn’t win the most games for a decade starting with the same third digit. Because that matters.

  577. Chuck Says:

    Today would have been Nick Adenhart’s 26th birthday.

  578. Bob Says:

    @ 577. That sucks.

  579. Chuck Says:

    “I guess his problem is that, unlike Morris, he didn’t win the most games for a decade starting with the same third digit. Because that matters.”

    Oh, snap, I know I’m getting senile, but I don’t remember Morris getting elected?

  580. Chuck Says:

    I know, he would have been a pretty good pitcher, I think.

    On the bright side, Mike got your email.

  581. Bob Says:

    Going to convert him.

  582. Chuck Says:

    On this date in 1967: On a Phillies off-day, slugger Richie Allen sustained a serious injury to his right hand when it went through the headlight of a car he was working on. Eleven games over .500 and in third place at the time, Philadelphia would lose 21 of their final 35 games and would finish 19.5 games behind the pennant winning St. Louis Cardinals.

    I remember this like it was yesterday. Why something so insignificant has stayed with me for so long I have no idea.

    We were on vacation in PA then, and I remember driving around and listening to the news on the car radio. I was ten and just starting to develop a love for the game, so maybe this is one of those small pieces of the puzzle that created the final picture.

    We went to PA a few times when I was a kid and I was actually a Phillies fan before a Yankees fan…Allen, Johnny Callison, Rick Wise, Cookie Rojas, Clay Dalrymple, Chris Short….

  583. Chuck Says:

    “Going to convert him.”

    You’re a shrink?

  584. Raul Says:

    When you say Halladay leads in WP, I thought you meant Wild Pitches.

  585. Raul Says:

    Happy Trails, Lance Armstrong

    CC Sabathia back on the mound for the Yankees tonight. And not a moment too soon. With the Rays hot on their trail, NY needs a good winning streak

  586. Raul Says:

    Yankees put Ivan Nova on the DL with inflamed shoulder.

    Really? This guy was hitting the mid-90s in his last start against the White Sox. He didn’t seem to be in pain when I watched the game.

  587. Bob Says:

    @ 583. I have skills.

  588. Bob Says:

    The Indians will mull offers for Shin-Soo Choo this winter. Interesting. Both Josh Hamilton and Melky have seen their value go down. Could be a wise move by the Indians.

  589. Chuck Says:

    Trade him to Boston.

  590. Bob Says:

    Blow the whole team up. Hearing reports that only 4 players showed up for Pesky’s funeral. Deplorable.

  591. Raul Says:


    Wasn’t Pesky like the biggest legend for the Red Sox since Ted Williams died?
    They loved Pesky up in Boston.

    And only 4 guys show?

  592. Bob Says:

    Players. Thankfully Henry, Werner and Lucchino were there.

  593. Chuck Says:

    I remember when Munson died, Steinbrenner said anyone who didn’t show he’d sell their contract to Japan for $1.

    It was a little different then because he was an active teammate, but everyone was there.

  594. Chuck Says:

    Realizing of course, that the Yankees were at home and Munson’s funeral was in Canton, OH>

  595. Bob Says:

    Steinbrenner said the right thing.

  596. Raul Says:

    That’s disgusting.
    I think it also says something about a lack of leadership in Boston. The manager or team captain (Pedroia?) should have organized something.

  597. Chuck Says:

    They don’t care about anything..as long as the chicken’s hot and the beer cold, who gives a shit.

    Wins and losses?

    Respecting the manager or organization?


  598. Bob Says:

    The Sox have no captain.

  599. Bob Says:

    Steve Van Buren passed away. R.I.P.

  600. Mike Felber Says:

    Hard to see a justification against R.H. in the HOF if he continues at just good production as John says. Unless one can show he had unusually good defense propping up his ERA (+), he has been dominant for a long time at a rare level.

    More likely I will convert you Bob. Usually folks favor who they identify with, including ideologically, but I need not like a guy’s idea(l)s to show what is ethically permissible to be used against him.

  601. Chuck Says:

    I’ll be more than happy to get into Halladay’s HOF worthiness at any time.

    Once he gets on the ballot.

    Until then, I’d rather talk Jack Morris, because he IS on the ballot.

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